Anomaly: 1849 Colt With Dragoon Barrel

[expat_alaska]

Well, Well...

I did not realize that this thread would broaden into what it has become since I first posted the thread, but it has opened my eyes insofar as possibilities.

You folks are great at posting relevant information, and for that I thank you all.

jpn: Yours is definitely a 2 line New York. I am looking at the load lever catch: does anyone else think the catch may have been drifted out, the barrel turned. and the catch returned? Just asking...

Otherwise, jpn, I think you have a gem! And one of my next (several!) projects is to procure a Uberti 1849 Pocket .31 and have my neighbor turn the octagon barrel round and then re-blue it.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread.

 

[jpn]

1849 Colt Round Barrel

Last one.

 

[jpn]

Jim:
You're right, there has been a lot of information on this subject. I'm glad I joined up. I think you made some very good points re the Guns International listing. I didn't notice the lack of lead-ins on the cylinder.

I checked the grips on my gun and found that they are in fact not Colt grips apparently; they are like Remington grips. Don't know why they did that; the original grips would have worked just fine.

I had a small thought last night. If enough of these round-barrel guns could be examined, it might be possible to measure the non-turned portion of the barrels from the breech (not including the forcing cone) to the start of the round portion of the barrel. If the measurements differed significantly it might indicate that the lathe work took place at different places. If, however, they were all of the same dimension (or reasonably close) it might indicate that they were made in the same place, possibly at the same time. Just thinkin'.

jpn

 

[expat_alaska]

These images show that the early ASM 1849 Pocket Pistol reproductions were made with ROUND BARRELS so they must have had the belief that Colt made them that way!

Their other early .31 caliber Baby Dragoon and Wells Fargo have correct OCTAGONAL BARRELS so it would have been cheaper to just use those.

Notice that the grips are one piece.

1. Image from the ASM Catalog of 1964
2. Image from the EMF Catalog of 1978 (* & **)

* The BRASS FRAME Info above the picture is for their Baby Dragoon.

** This ROUND BARREL style of pocket pistol was also in the 1981 EMF catalog but had been replaced in the 1987 catalog by the OCTAGONAL BARREL version. (I do not yet have any intervening EMF catalogs)

EK:

Thanks for posting those ASM Pocket Pistol catalog images; however, it brings more ASM questions to mind:

1.) The first pic from a 1964 ASM catalog shows "proper"-looking shoulders at the rear of the TG where the two attachment screws enter the frame. The second pic from a 1978 EMF catalog shows very shallow shoulders on their 1849 "Pocket Police" (sic) pistol. These are signature early ASM pointers.

My REPLICA ARMS EL PASO TEXAS 1848 Pocket with load lever (manufacture date XIX - 1963) is a non-marked ASM with those shallow shoulders:





Very strange.

2.) The 1964 ASM catalog shows the rammer pivot screw entering from the left side (which is correct for an 1849 Pocket) while the 1978 EMF catalog shows the rammer pivot screw entering from the right side (which is actually correct for some 1848 Pocket with load lever from ~11600 - ~12000 Shumaker pg. 52). In addition, mine has the load lever screw entering from the right.




As I understand it, EMF was/is just an importer and not an assembler/manufacturer. Please correct me if wrong. So, I am a bit confused as to how these differences balance out with the dates.

EK, I am not taking issue with you. it's just that the images from the ASM/EMF catalogs have me befuddled.

It's only noon or so here but I think I will have a beer...

Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Jim - In college, I often broke my fast with either cold pizza or cold chili from the evening before and washed it down with a brew. I have never held drink timing against anyone unless they intended on driving soon.

EMF was/is primarily an importer however they, like many other importers, tell the Italian manufacturers what they want and how much quality control they are willing to pay for! The fact that a certain EMF catalog does not have a certain reproduction version doesn't mean that ASM wasn't making it, just that EMF didn't stock it that year.

Your observation of trigger guard thickness is very interesting. So I checked:

In the '64 ASM catalog your Baby Dragoon and their Wells Fargo models do have the thin guard. Only the 1850/1849 round barrel pocket pistol has the thick guard.

I now have many of the EMF catalogs ('50s - '90s) but not all of them. The Baby Dragoon appears early on and ALWAYS with the thin guard until it is dropped during the late '80s and an 1849 with an octagonal barrel and a thick guard appears along with 1862 replicas with thick guards. At this time the Wells Fargo also is pictured for the first time with the thick guard.

The Round Barrel 1849 does not appear in any of my earliest EMF catalogs. The first catalog I have with it is the '78 and it only appears with the thin guard in that and subsequent catalogs. It is gone entirely from my catalogs by 1987 replaced by the 1849 octagonal barrel/thick guard version.

Strangely, I have NEVER seen an ASM round barrel 1849 for sale, only originals. If they are out there, they may come in two versions, early thick guards and later thin guards. ASM definitely made a variety of .31 caliber reproductions using thin guards on some versions and thick guards on others.

 

[rcflint]

I don't think, even going past the flat diameter will weaken the barrel enough to be dangerous, there is a step in a dragoon barreled 36 Navy type (see Confederate) without harm. For that matter, there is a step in a Dragoon.

The high pressure (such as it is) is in the cylinder, as previously mentioned in the earlier comments.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here is another 1849 Round Barrel:

http://percussionrevolvers.com/index.php?topic=79.0;prev_next=prev#new

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I found an ASM Round Barrel 1849:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/7420361

Thin trigger guard version from 1980 (AF.)

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here is an interesting thread from Dr. Davis:

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php?topic=35.0

My earliest EMF catalogs (Studio City, CA address) show THAT cylinder engraving on the ASM Baby Dragoon, Wells Fargo and Pocket Pistol. Later the EMF Pocket and Wells Fargo show the stage coach scene.

The pictures in the 1964 ASM catalog are too small to make out the cylinder engraving but the descriptions list an Indian Fight scene for the Baby Dragoon and Stage Coach Holdup scene for the Pocket and Wells Fargo.

Note to Dr. Davis - the GB you are curious about is Giuseppe Buffoli, the founder of Armi San Marco. The 1964 ASM catalog has a Griffin/GB logo on the cover and on every page (see below.)

 

[expat_alaska]

Here is an interesting thread from Dr. Davis:

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolver...php?topic=35.0

My earliest EMF catalogs (Studio City, CA address) show THAT cylinder engraving on the ASM Baby Dragoon, Wells Fargo and Pocket Pistol. Later the EMF Pocket and Wells Fargo show the stage coach scene.

The pictures in the 1964 ASM catalog are too small to make out the cylinder engraving but the descriptions list an Indian Fight scene for the Baby Dragoon and Stage Coach Holdup scene for the Pocket and Wells Fargo.

EK,

Thanks for that link!

I recently emailed Dr. Davis at RPRCA and got this reply:

Hello Jim,

Due to deteriorating health I have not be able to spend much time on updating the web site. I have several articles as well as pictures with more info but just have not had the energy to get them posted to the site. I am 81yrs old and have been doing the research and maintaining the web site for 20yrs out of my own pocket. Too old to keep learning new software so I still use the old Frontpage and transfer it to the Tripod web site by FTP. People have ask why I use a "free" website instead of paying through the nose for Go Daddy and other servers which are "more professional". It is because I started this web site on a free site to test the interest in collecting these revolvers and was immediately overwhelmed with the response. The URL is so established (2000 to 4000 hits a week) that I don't dare change it. It is too well known.

Thank you for your interest. You have given me a little jab to do a little update to the site.

Jim Davis

I felt kind of bad as I did not know he was 81 and in poor health.

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

I found an ASM Round Barrel 1849:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/7420361

Thin trigger guard version from 1980 (AF.)

Same TG shoulder thickness as my ASM/Replica Arms 1848 Pocket w/load lever. The sold price appears to be very nice for the buyer.

So many ASM things for me to learn. Thanks for being my primary ASM historical source, EK.

Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I'm learning as we go along too!

Thanks for the update on Dr. Davis.

I wish him well.

Maybe one of the youngsters on here that live near him will volunteer to be an apprentice.

 

[expat_alaska]

Maybe one of the youngsters on here that live near him will volunteer to be an apprentice.

You know, that is a novel idea! You are 3 years older than I am and you seem to be a bit sharper than I am, all things posted (and I have seen your posts on other BP threads) considered.

I thank you for all your input and your wealth of information as I have seen so far.

Jim

 

[kBob]

This morning I was flipping through an old Sam Fadala book published in 1979 and ran across a photo of a "Sile" imported 1849 six shot with half round barrel. Old B&W picture on rag print was not sharp enough to read proof date or pick out manufacturer clues. Frame was color case hardened as was the hammer. Brass back strap and TG assembly. Four inch barrel round forward of the block. The little notch often visible on repros above the rammer screw area is visible. Round trigger guard and bead front sight. No Pietta bump/tail fin on the grip.

Cylinder appears to be engraved but can not tell what with. Thought it the stage coach as it seemed a large round wheel was visible but the wheel had to much at odd angles around it......seemed almost like a federal eagle with a round shield.....maybe a Manhatten roll engraving?

Gosh ,it looks nice, who ever made it.

The Complete Black Powder Handbook, by Sam Fadala, DBI Books, 1979, page 169.

-kBob

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here is a 1970 ASM "1863 RGT Pocket 31 Cal." for sale on GB.

It has the thin trigger guard and the stagecoach holdup scene.

I am attaching three additional pictures that the seller sent me to add to our collection.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=525109519

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Here is an ASM Wells Fargo that has the thicker trigger guard:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/49297...-for-sale----31-caliber-black-powder-revolver

Still looking for a round barrel pocket by them that has this guard but I have found several examples with the thin guard like this one that I just bought:

 

[expat_alaska]

By the term "thicker trigger guard" I was assuming (I always get into trouble assuming things) that you are referring to the rear shoulders. At first I was looking for thicker brass insofar as the area surrounding the trigger.

That is a VERY nice Round-barrel 1849 Pocket. Drool...

Why is it all you folks beat me to the good ones?

Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Yea, I meant the shoulders of the guard. Sorry!

 

[swathdiver]

That was a nice six-shooter too! Always wanted two of those!

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

I just picked up the ASM revolver that I pictured at the bottom of post #66 above.

The NC pawn shop insisted they ship it to an FFL dealer.

They said it was store policy!!!

Oh well, that's $20 more toward Onling's range building fund.

It was described as a baby dragoon on Armslist and I just figured that the seller incorrectly named it that.

It looked like the ASM 1849 Pocket Pistols that I had seen in their and EMF catalogs rather than the 1849 Baby Dragoons.

Well surprise, surprise (to quote Gomer!)

It came with its original, numbered to the gun, box labeled "Revolver Baby Dragoon 1848."

The penciled on stock number is an EMF number for all of their Baby Dragoons, PER 110, with the CH for case hardened frame and the 4 for barrel length although the box is not marked EMF.

Note the Griffin / GB logo that is consistent with the 1964 ASM catalog logo and backs up the theory that early ASM reproductions were simply marked GB for its founder, Giuseppe Buffoli.

^ Added 1/24/2016: I was searching for the GB logo mentioned by Dr. Davis (bprevolver) and the only pictures of a similar logo that I could find seem to actually be GLB and have been attributed to Giacosa Luciano of Bresica, Italy. I am not sure if these are the marks he called GB or are separate. ^

I can not find a listing for an 1848 Baby Dragoon in any of my reference materials, only the 1849 version with squareback trigger guard, octagonal barrel and Indian/Ranger fight cylinder scene.

Note the ASM 1848 Baby Dragoon has a round trigger guard, half round dragoon style barrel and smooth cylinder.

The date code is AF for 1980.

The box is the 2 piece green alligator skin embossed style with a cardboard insert.

 

[72coupe]

Wow! Nice find.

 

[expat_alaska]

It came with its original, numbered to the gun, box labeled "Revolver Baby Dragoon 1848."

The penciled on stock number is an EMF number for all of their Baby Dragoons, PER 110, with the CH for case hardened frame and the 4 for barrel length although the box is not marked EMF.

Note the Griffin / GB logo that is consistent with the 1964 ASM catalog logo and backs up the theory that early ASM reproductions were simply marked GB for its founder, Giuseppe Buffoli.

I can not find a listing for an 1848 Baby Dragoon in any of my reference materials, only the 1849 version with squareback trigger guard, octagonal barrel and Indian/Ranger fight cylinder scene.

Note the ASM 1848 Baby Dragoon has a round trigger guard, half round dragoon style barrel and smooth cylinder.

The date code is AF for 1980.

Interesting. To me, it seems like ASM got their models/dates/trigger guards/rectangular stop slots w/approaches backwards (in your case), plus a smooth cylinder.

My 1963 (XIX) ASM 1848 has the engraved cylinder/squareback TG/octagonal barrel/rectangular stop slots w/no approaches.

Does the pistol have any ASM, GB, EMF, or other manufacturer/importer markings? The box shows the wording "Replica Arms" in a circle with the GB logo. Maybe a longshot with Replica Arms of El Paso Texas or Marietta Ohio? (I think stranger things have happened.)

[Sorry I am somewhat late to the game again but, as an aside, I have received my Pietta G&G (no "tail") from Cabela's and, after massaging the wedge (the Pietta Gorilla lives), have been playing with variants (historical and non) with my Pietta 1851 Navy 2nd Model Squareback (with "tail") I have put together Leech & Rigdon Squareback, and I found a photo of a pair of them by an Italian manufacturer on some other forum but did not copy the photo for my replica library. :banghead: ]

Hmmm. And someone on another forum opined that these replicas aren't collectible, yet...

I just received a new book: "Colt Revolvers" by Joseph G. Rosa (1988 - British publication). I just started going through it and it has some interesting photos and descriptions that may apply to this thread. If I find anything of interest that is pertinent here, I will post. Gotta read it cover to cover first.

Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Interesting. To me, it seems like ASM got their models/dates/trigger guards/rectangular stop slots w/approaches backwards (in your case), plus a smooth cylinder.

Jim I see there is a Replica Arms, Marietta ASM with a square back trigger guard and Indian/Ranger cylinder scene on GB and the box is marked "Wells Fargo."

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=537987191

Very Curious!!!

Does the pistol have any ASM, GB, EMF, or other manufacturer/importer markings?

The only markings on the "Revolver Baby Dragoon 1848" include:

"BLACK POWDER ONLY -" on the left side of the barrel

"ARMI SAN. MARCO - GARDONE VT" on the right side of the barrel

There are no markings under the ram lever

Gardone initial and black powder proofs on the right side of the barrel lug

"334" on the bottom of the barrel lug

Proofs and "AF" date cartouche on the right side of the frame

"334" on the bottom of the frame

There are no marks on the trigger guard

"35334" on the butt of the back strap

Proofs on the cylinder between the stop notches

The box shows the wording "Replica Arms" in a circle with the GB logo. Maybe a longshot with Replica Arms of El Paso Texas or Marietta Ohio? (I think stranger things have happened.)

According to Dr. Davis, ASM was supplying Replica Arms Co. with much of their stock throughout its various incarnations so perhaps ASM adopted it as part of their Griffin/GB logo.

I think that there is only one way to solve all these puzzles:

BUY MORE BLACK POWDER GUNS

 

[expat_alaska]

According to Dr. Davis, ASM was supplying Replica Arms Co. with much of their stock throughout its various incarnations so perhaps ASM adopted it as part of their Griffin/GB logo.

I think that there is only one way to solve all these puzzles:

BUY MORE BLACK POWDER GUNS

LOL! I am almost ready for dinner and when I read that I almost snorted my whiskey and water through my nose!

I believe you are entirely correct, Sir! All it takes is money, interest, and documentation. Those are the keys, I believe.

I truly believe there is much more to learn insofar as the history, quirks, and other anomalies when it comes to all of the 20th/21st century replicas. I think Dr. Davis started (RPRCA) it but there is much more to be discerned as we have all seen just with the Pockets. We might invite all of the 1851 Navy variant collectors (to include the replica Confederate C&B revolvers, no matter how far it goes) on another thread as I am mostly into 1851 variants, but truly curious about Colt Pockets, replica or original.

Jim