Another casualty of the SCOTUS decision on anti-sodomy law: US sovereignty

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Another casualty of the SCOUTS decision on anti-sodomy law: US sovereignty

WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court's reference to foreign law in a ruling last month that overturned state anti-sodomy statutes stood out as if it were in bold print and capital letters.

Writing for the majority in a landmark decision supporting gay civil rights, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted that the European Court of Human Rights and other foreign courts have affirmed the ''rights of homosexual adults to engage in intimate, consensual conduct.''

Never before had the Supreme Court's majority cited a foreign legal precedent in such a big case. Kennedy's opinion in Lawrence vs. Texas, which was signed by four other justices, has ignited a debate among analysts over whether it was a signal that the justices will adopt foreign courts' views of individual liberties.

In theory, that could mean the currently conservative court someday might be influenced by other countries' opposition to the death penalty, their emphasis on foreign prisoners' rights and even their acceptance of same-sex marriages. (Last month, a court in Canada lifted a ban on such unions.)

But it is far from clear that the U.S. high court routinely will turn to foreign law, and the practice has its critics -- notably Justice Antonin Scalia. When the court interprets the Constitution, he has written, U.S. attitudes about what is decent and right -- not foreign ones -- are what should matter.

In Lawrence vs. Texas, the court relied most fundamentally on the U.S. Constitution's right of privacy to strike down laws prohibiting oral and anal sex between consenting adults of the same sex. But it also emphasized the ''values we share with a wider civilization'' and how privacy for gay men and lesbians ''has been accepted as an integral part of human freedom in many other countries.''

''It surprised me to see it in a majority opinion because there has been a debate among the justices over whether foreign law is relevant'' to rulings on U.S. law, says Yale law professor Drew Days, a former U.S. solicitor general.

Days is among those who saw the reference as a step forward. ''The justices are gaining the benefit of very sophisticated thinking by other foreign courts about privacy and equality,'' he says. ''Those terms are not unique to our Constitution and our society.''

Last year, Justice John Paul Stevens cited foreign law in a footnote when the majority banned executions of mentally retarded convicts. Stevens noted that ''within the world community, the . . . death penalty for crimes committed by mentally retarded offenders is overwhelmingly disapproved.''

That drew a rebuke from Scalia, who said, ''The views of other nations, however enlightened the justices of this court may think them to be, cannot be imposed upon Americans through the Constitution.'' Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Justice Clarence Thomas joined Scalia in his dissent.

In the Texas case, Scalia -- joined once again by Rehnquist and Thomas -- wrote that ''the court's discussion of these foreign views (ignoring, of course, the many countries that have retained criminal prohibitions on sodomy) is ... meaningless dicta. Dangerous dicta, however, since this court should not impose foreign moods, fads, or fashions on Americans.'' (Justice Sandra Day O'Connor voted with the Kennedy majority in the case but wrote a separate opinion.)

Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer have been the most enthusiastic justices in giving consideration to foreign legal trends. In voting last month to uphold an affirmative action policy at the University of Michigan, Ginsburg, joined by Breyer, highlighted an international treaty that endorsed the use of race-conscious programs to help minorities.

But it was Kennedy's opinion striking down the anti-sodomy laws that set off debate among close observers of the court.

His opinion referred to a ''friend of the court'' brief that described liberty as a global concept and detailed how other countries protect the privacy of gay men and lesbians. It was submitted by Mary Robinson, former United Nations high commissioner for human rights, and others. Kennedy said there was no evidence that the USA has a ''more legitimate or urgent'' reason than other countries to ban homosexual sex.

The ruling in the Texas case came June 26, on the last day of the high court's annual term. Several justices were leaving for conferences overseas that also serve as reminders of how the justices increasingly are in touch with foreign legal issues.

This week, five of the nine justices -- O'Connor, Kennedy, Thomas, Ginsburg and Breyer -- will be in Florence, Italy, for a forum with foreign judges on a proposed new European constitution.


In theory, that could mean the currently conservative court someday might be influenced by other countries' opposition to the death penalty, their emphasis on foreign prisoners' rights and even their acceptance of same-sex marriages.
Not to mention greater gun control. This is futher evidence that this recent ruling had no basis under the Constitution. But, then again, it's all for a good cause. :rolleyes:
 
This is futher evidence that this recent ruling had no basis under the Constitution.

It's the "sodomy laws" that had no basis under the Constitution, and SCOTUS merely acknowledged that. Remember that the Constitution is a limitation on government, not citizens.
 
My understanding is that they basically said the government has no compelling interest in such affairs and that laws should "have a good reason" for existing.

Lots of people bent out of shape because (horrors!) homosexuals can now practice.... HOMO SEX UALITY! ew! its so yucky, lets lock them all up! :what:
 
Writing for the majority in a landmark decision supporting gay civil rights, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted that the European Court of Human Rights and other foreign courts have affirmed the ''rights of homosexual adults to engage in intimate, consensual conduct.''

Never before had the Supreme Court's majority cited a foreign legal precedent in such a big case. Kennedy's opinion in Lawrence vs. Texas, which was signed by four other justices, has ignited a debate among analysts over whether it was a signal that the justices will adopt foreign courts' views of individual liberties.
and
This week, five of the nine justices -- O'Connor, Kennedy, Thomas, Ginsburg and Breyer -- will be in Florence, Italy, for a forum with foreign judges on a proposed new European constitution.
I was of the opinion that the 2004 election would turn on the economy. It may still, but at this point I think the court will end up being the issue.

The US has fought 2 civil wars in our brief history. The first was what is called the American Revoluionary War. The second has a number of names such as the Civil War or the Troubles or the War of Northern Aggression. The fight I think we'll see over the court wil qualify as a third civil war

Spooky as all get out!
 
technically the constitution doesn't protect a private life. merely unwarranted search and seizure, which is related but isn't really the same thing.

i gues the theory is, it would still be wrong to, say, kill someone in a forest, even if no one heard it. or to speed on a deserted highway. or to have oral sex with your spouse in your bedroom. etc. etc. you get the point.
 
I don't know who wrote that, but there is at least one glaring error. The Supreme Court has cited foreign law many, many times before. Of course, they were consistent with the original intent, not with what a majority of the Court wishes the Constitution to be.
 
Lots of people bent out of shape because (horrors!) homosexuals can now practice.... HOMO SEX UALITY! ew! its so yucky, lets lock them all up!

Lock who up? The Texas law that was in dispute could only result in a $500 fine.

While I think that the Texas legislature should have overturned the law themseves because it is a stupuid law, Texas has the right to pass the law per the 10th amendament.

Of course, this is the same court that upheld racial discrimination.....
 
I think its hilarious that some of the most learned and respected minds
in our country are relegated to deciding where you can put your genitals.

I wonder if they will have a SCOTUS case regarding laws against
bestiality next.


As long as our goverment is pre-occupied with silly garbage they will have less time to infringe upon our rights.
 
My understanding is that they basically said the government has no compelling interest in such affairs and that laws should "have a good reason" for existing.
What is it about this concept that is so hard to understand? US sovereignty? This is an important decision for *individual* sovereignty!
 
Question for the "no privacy in the constitution" crowd:

Many states banned various forms of sex -- such as oral stimulation -- even between married heterosexual couples. If the case had involved a married heterosexual couple being fined, would you be as upset?

technically the constitution doesn't protect a private life. merely unwarranted search and seizure, which is related but isn't really the same thing.
Re-read the 9th Amendment.

And BTW: that's like saying, "technically the constitution doesn't protect reading books. merely printing them, which is related but isn't really the same thing.
While I think that the Texas legislature should have overturned the law themseves because it is a stupuid law, Texas has the right to pass the law per the 10th amendament.
Re-read the 9th Amendment, and familiarize yourself with the concept of "incorporation" via the 14th Amendment
 
I don't understand why people are getting all riled up over this.

So what if the justices cite foreign courts' opinions? They can just as easily reach a poor decision without them. If they used foreign opinions to abrogate Constitutional guarantees or if they cited foreign decisions in every case -- "our decisions must have a precendent somewhere" -- then we would have a problem.

Justice Breyer gave a presentation about this very issue. I think it was the 2003-04-19 c-span "america and the courts" program if you can find it... cspan might have removed it from the archives by now.
 
As long as foreign decisions are being used to support INCREASING personal freedom, I'm all for it.

The moment they want to limit the BoR based of overseas ideas, it's revolution time.
 
But gutting the BoR without pointing to foreign precedent is fine by you? The justices would never adopt a policy of having U.S. decisions guided by other courts. That would be self-imposed power reduction, and I'm jaded enough to believe that even people as -hopefully- wise as the justices on the U.S. S.C. would never willingly give up their power. That's both good and bad.
 
Re-read the 9th Amendment, and familiarize yourself with the concept of "incorporation" via the 14th Amendment

Are you suggesting that since the bill of rights is defined by the 9th amendment as not being an all encompassing list of rights that the states have NO authority to legislate actions?


Edited for typos - d'oh
 
The states have no authority to infringe upon rights. They can do anything they want with regard to actions that are not protected rights and over which the Federal Government holds no jurisdiction.
 
The way some of these recent decisions have gone, I don't think a single clause from the Constitution is to be found in the cafeteria.
 
Are you suggesting that since the bill of rights is defined by the 9th amendment as not being an all encompassing list of rights that the states have NO authority to legislate actions?
The 9th says there are rights beyond the BoR (as you said).

The 14th says that states cannot infringe citizens’ rights (it uses the phrase "privileges and immunities.â€)

Thus, if an action can be defined as an individual right – and privacy certainly can be – then states cannot infringe that action under the 9th/14th. The Constitution does protect privacy via the 9th/14th. (read next comment)
The states have no authority to infringe upon rights. They can do anything they want with regard to actions that are not protected rights and over which the Federal Government holds no jurisdiction.
Correct, though I'd point out that all rights are protected rights under the 9th/14th, even if not mentioned (enumerated) in the Constitution -- though they're not always protected in practice, unfortunately.

State's can regulate non-right actions, like murder.
I don't think the 9th Amendment is posted on the cafeteria wall.
Well it should be ;)
 
cuchulainn,

Good, then we are at least in a greement as to the meaning of the amendments.

Personally, I have have libertarian (note the small "l") tendencies and think that everyone should be able to anything that doesn't infringe on the rights of others. However this just isn't the case in law. It is silly when we are having a discussion of rights to bring up murder when this obviously infringes on another's rights, but if your assertion were true then the courts would have already found many things unconstitutionally infringed - prostitution, adult incest, drugs, etc. Somehow I don't see these prohibitions being ruled unconstitutional anytime soon.

I agree that "privacy" is and should be a right, but in what way do you think that the Texas sodomy law was a violation of privacy? Just because it is something that is done in privacy? What about drug use? It seems to me that the courts play the privacy card whenever they "feel" that a decision just needs to go a certain way for moral reasons (eg. Roe V. Wade ).
 
tiberius but if your assertion were true then the courts would have already found many things unconstitutionally infringed - prostitution, adult incest, drugs, etc. Somehow I don't see these prohibitions being ruled unconstitutional anytime soon.
The distinction is that between "protected" and "protectable."

Just because courts haven't used the constitution to protect an act, doesn't mean it is not a protectable act -- see my comment from my last post: "though they're not always protected in practice, unfortunately."
tiberius but in what way do you think that the Texas sodomy law was a violation of privacy? Just because it is something that is done in privacy?
Consensual sexual activity, even if offensive to some, is a private act.

In any event, the burden of proof -- in a free society -- is on the government to prove that something is not a right (as opposed to people having to prove an activity is a right in order to be allowed to do the activity).

Prove it is not a right.
tiberius It is silly when we are having a discussion of rights to bring up murder when this obviously infringes on another's rights,
I used it because it is the most obvious non-right that state's have the power to regulate.
tiberiusIt seems to me that the courts play the privacy card whenever they "feel" that a decision just needs to go a certain way for moral reasons (eg. Roe V. Wade ).
The difference here is that no one can argue that another human's rights(*) are being infringed by a consensual sex act. RvW hinges on whether you believe a fetus has rights that trump a woman's right to privacy in medical care.

(*) There is no right to be unoffended.
 
One of the classic "we have more rights than just what's in the BoR" cases is, oddly enough, Dred Scott (1856). In reciting a litany of personal civil rights that blacks DON'T have :rolleyes: they listed a "right to free travel without papers or passport".

While that's not found in the BoR, labeling it a personal right is perfectly proper. I consider a "right to privacy" just as reasonable and support the recent sodomy-law decision.

One of the main arguments against ever having a BoR circa 1789/90ish was Anti-Federalist fears that once you codified rights on paper, future idiots might mistakenly think those were the ONLY rights we have. Recent events (hell, recent THR postings!) show this fear have been 100% on target.

The 9th and 10th Amendments were the bones thrown to the people with those fears - they were supposed to be "catch alls" for personal rights.

They've been sadly neglected of late. But in so far as they preserve specific rights of the people, they should definately be considered incorporated against the states (forcing the states to honor their principles) via the 14th Amendment of 1868.
 
Your rights are not some ever-changing collection of temporary privileges that depend on case law for their existance.

All the case law and SCOTUS decisions have to say about your rights are how far the gov't is willing to go in either protecting them or oppressing you.
Lock who up? The Texas law that was in dispute could only result in a $500 fine.
Yeah, that ain't so bad, huh? I guess we should be thankful that our masters have offered us the pleasure of paying the fine instead of being incarcerated...which of course is what will happen if we don't pay the fine...but we should be thankful then too for being corrected and prevented from engaging in evil behavior. Good thing there's no sodomy in prision! We can all be protected from the evil behavior in there...

- Gabe
 
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