Another failure on the war on drugs

[TheeBadOne]

If drugs were legal all would be good....blah blah blah.
This has been repeated over and over, ad nauseam.
People seem to forget that ALL drugs were legal at one time.
EVERYTHING was legal at one time. What happens is something becomes a problem and laws are passed. From speed limits to murder, laws have been passed AFTER something caused a negative impact.
When people are talking about legalizing drugs to end the breaking of laws, all they'd be getting rid of is SELLING/POSSESION, not the PROBLEMS that come from DRUG USE itself.
Show me a heroin addict that can hold a job, even if smack was as cheap as dirt. Addicts commit violent crimes to support their habit, as that's they only way they can.
For you apples and oranges people out there, go ahead and ban alcohol too, I could care less.
Those who say alcohol and drugs are the same are WRONG.

There is a simple difference between the two. You can have 1 beer. You can't do that with drugs. The whole point of drugs is abuse/intoxication from the start. If you're getting high on alcohol that is abuse and is wrong. Alcohol can and is abused terribly, but it can also be used in a responsible manner (not getting intoxicated).

Notice I'm not promoting alcohol, merely giving my view on why it's still legal. As long as we're on the topic of alcohol I'll give my view of one basic problem with it. The problem is social in nature and will not be fixed. There is a part of society that encourges and enables irresponsible drinking, bars. Yes, bars. It's been going on for 100's of years and is ingrained in our society. (not talking about banning bars for gosh sakes people, but the attitude that goes with drinking and bars >the ole watering hole<).

 

[Tamara]

TheeBadOne,

From speed limits to murder, laws have been passed AFTER something caused a negative impact.

Ah yes, like the banning of beer, bayonet lugs and "high capacity magazines". I get it now...

(Maybe laws are passed when some special interest groups make enough noise? Like noted Republican Drug Warrior William Bennett and his minions, who made sure that imported rifles had tiny magazines and doofy-looking thumbhole stocks? Or the noted lies of Mr. Anslinger and the bleating of his followers, who wanted to ban marijuana to keep pure white virgins from being seduced by shifty black jazz musicians?)

 

[CZ-75]

Those who say alcohol and drugs are the same are WRONG.

We are. Alcohol causes far MORE problems than drugs and is more widely abused.

There is a simple difference between the two. You can have 1 beer. You can't do that with drugs. The whole point of drugs is abuse/intoxication from the start.

And you can have one joint and not be addicted and still be a productive citizen.

Marijuana can and is abused, but it can also be used in a responsible manner.

EVERYTHING was legal at one time. What happens is something becomes a problem and laws are passed. From speed limits to murder, laws have been passed AFTER something caused a negative impact.

I'd say that the problems, like a high murder rate and the tremendous profits that allow drug gangs to become so well armed and deadly, are far worse than the problems caused by use. As to theft, burglary, and robbery to secure funds for drugs, and violence used in the commission of those crimes, the problem could be negated by cheap/free distribution to addicts.

 

[TheeBadOne]

As to theft, burglary, and robbery to secure funds for drugs, and violence used in the commission of those crimes, the problem could be negated by cheap/free distribution to addicts.

a pipe dream

 

[CZ-75]

a pipe dream

No more so than a belief that LE will ever win the WOD.

Or that new laws, prohibitions, and classes of criminal will solve the problem.

Or that there will be enough prisons to hold everyone convicted of one of these offenses or that we can afford to do so.


Tell me who's living in a bigger fantasy world?

 

[TheeBadOne]

No more so than a belief that LE will ever win the WOD

Zero sum arguments are flawed. The WOD is about controlling, limiting the problem.
No different than the WOM (War On Murder). Just because people are still killing people doens't mean it's a failure, and time to abandon the fight. Murder rates are down due to enforcement, and the same thing applies to the WOD.

 

[Tamara]

TheeBadOne,

You said laws are only passed after problems caused them to be necessary, therefore the laws are good.

Could you tell us about the problems that caused the marijuana laws and the NFA to be passed in the '30s?

 

[TheeBadOne]

Tamara, I find these type of threads on boards to be an exercise in futility. What follows are flawed compairisons, ad hominem attacks, and emotional venting. All the info is there if you want to look at it with an open unbiased mind. That's the problem being human, it's hard to do. Are there problems with the WOD? Yes, there damn sure are. Do they override the problem of drugs, no? You and the others have your mind made up. I could reproduce volumes for you, only to be dismissed as "a pawn of the goverment", or a "sheeple", etc. Why would I waste my time? So far things have remained on a civil basis and I'd like that to stay that way. To keep going often results in a urinary contest that does no good to anyone and harms all involved (sometimes even the board). This thread has run it's course as far as I'm concerned and it's usefullness is at an end.

All the best

TBO

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Could you tell us about the problems that caused the marijuana laws and the NFA to be passed in the '30s?

Well, I guess you haven't seen Reefer Madness or Public Enemy have you. That's all the reason you need!

 

[Sir Galahad]

To the saying that"...you can have one beer, but you can't do that with drugs..." Hmmm...not so for alcoholics. Addiction is addiction. But punishing the whole of society for those people who abuse a substance is no different than banning guns because some people abuse those.

Regarding laws being passed because some things "became problems". Actually, what happened is that Eastern women moved West and brought with them certain prudish moral codes and actively campaigned to stop gambling, prostitution, etc., etc. In some areas, this was the beginning of property and sales taxes. Formerly, this revenue was raised via the licensing and taxing of brothels and sporting houses, gambling establishments, and so forth. Once these sources of revenue became illegal, there had to be a new way to fund public schools and other such public institutions. Hence, property taxes and sales taxes were levied to raise money. Isn't that a nice bargain? These things were not problems in some cases in the Old West because police had power to actually stop crime and people could be armed. But if cops today pull a "Wild Bill" Hickok on a bad guy, the media crucifies him. But I'm straying from the topic. How is gambling a problem? How is a regulated brothel a problem? How is personal use of cannabis a problem? Yes, it's much preferable for all that cash to be flowing into underground coffers rather than back into society. The lesson should be obvious. The Neo-Puritans and health nazis raise the sales tax on cigarettes to where a pack costs $7.00 in some places. So, enterprising folks buy them in low-tax states and truck them up to high-tax states to sell at what is still an enormous profit-per-pack but still an enormous bargain-per-pack price to their customers. Everyone is happy. Except for the government, of course, who, not content with golden eggs every now and then, decided to try and cut the goose open to get them all at once and found no more golden eggs at all. Awwww...the poor state governments! They're not getting to screw the people. You think the government learns? Do they say, "Hey, we ought to be a little more realistic and lower the tobacco tax because our high taxes cause the black market to flourish." But telling them 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing is lost on state governments re-inventing the wheel, starting with the original square prototype. Same with drugs. Rather than admit they're interfering with peoples' personal lives, they have to keep right on insisting that a square wheel WILL ROLL if it's greased with enough tax dollars. And we, the people, are the losers.

 

[CZ-75]

Murder rates are down due to enforcement, and the same thing applies to the WOD.

Is that why the price of drugs has been declining since the '70s?

Tell me how the "law of supply and demand" works differently for the controlled substances market than for every other commodity, then.

Truth is, though, the WOD has been such an abysmal failure that prices have been steadily declining since the supply has been increasing. Factor in an expanding user base, from govt. stats taken during the Klinton era, and you can see that supply obviously far exceeds demand. Logical conlusion: interdiction isn't working.

So much for LE controlling the problem. Another thing is that it isn't in LE's interest to be too effective, as that means jobs will have to be cut when there is no longer justification for the warm bodies to fill them.

 

[justice4all]

If we want to win the WOM (War on Murder), we need to call a truce in the WOD. We also need to realize that the gang murders caused by the WOD are destroying our gun rights, and may one day lead to an all-out WOG (War on Guns).

It is a mystery to me how anyone who supports gun rights can also support the institution most responsible for their demise, i.e., Prohibition.

 

[c_yeager]

So any crime commited that in any way involves drugs is a "Failure of the war on Drugs"? Sorta like any crime involving a firearm is a "gun crime" right?

I used to work nights in a gorcery store. You know what our two most stolen items were? The perfectly legal drugs of Alcohol and Cigarettes. Makes you wonder doesnt it. I mean i thought the theory here was that if its legal noone will ever commit a crime to get it. Riiiight. The people who stole alcohol and cigarettes were also the people most prone to end up fighting with us when we caught them. Seems like assault wasnt too big a crime to commit in order to get these perfectly legal drugs.

 

[db4]

"You know what our two most stolen items were? The perfectly legal drugs of Alcohol and Cigarettes."

The two items with:

Age restrictions on sales, and:

Prices hugely inflated by taxation.

 

[Tamara]

c_yeager,

Did Piggly Wiggly do a drive-by on your gang for muscling in on their turf?

 

[Oracle]

The War on Drugs is about one thing, and one thing only: control. The government can use the War on Drugs as an excuse to do nearly anything they want to the citizens of this country. All they have to say is "well, we got a tip that this person possessed or manufactured illegal drugs", and every violation of that person's rights is suddenly "ok" and the person "deserved it". Otherwise decent people have been brainwashed into believing that simply because a person may possess "a prohibited item", in this case, "illegal drugs" that's a good enough reason to simply ignore their right to privacy and their right to be secure in their home and property. What if the "prohibited items" are guns instead of "illegal drugs"? Well, then these same people's tune changes quite rapidly, what they don't realize is that it's the same thing. If someone abuses a gun and uses it in a crime, then it's not the gun's fault, right? And, you wouldn't suggest the banning of guns simply because they are used in crime? How is it then "the drug's fault" when someone who abuses drugs commits a crime, and how can you suggest that they should all be banned because someone under their influence "might" commit a crime? If you want drugs to be banned because someone "might" commit a crime under their influence, why don't you think that alcohol should be banned as well, as many crimes are committed under it's influence?

Arguing that "murder" and "drug use and possession" are equivalent crimes is rhetorical nonsense. It's the difference between mala in se and mala prohibita. One is "evil" in and of itself, the other is "evil" simply because the government says that it is. If the use of a mind-altering substance for recreational purposes is mala in se, or evil in and of itself, isn't alcohol use just as bad? It's using a mind-altering substance for recreational purposes. But that's somehow "ok" because it has the governmental stamp of approval, and the use of other substances isn't because they don't. Riiiight.

 

[c_yeager]

Did Piggly Wiggly do a drive-by on your gang for muscling in on their turf?

Maybe im just dense here Tamara but, i dont get it. Care to elaborate?

DB4, is it your belief that if currently illegal drugs were made legal that they too wouldnt be subject to the same taxation and age restrictions? I mean at the currect rate marijuana is about 10 times the cost of tobacco. And thats with a free-market in place and no tax.

 

[Justin Moore]

It amazes me that anyone thinks more draconian enforcement is somehow the answer.

It doesn't amaze me in the slightest. :banghead:

 

[db4]

c yeager- The point I was trying to make is that these "perfectly legal" drugs are theft-prone because of restricted access and wildly inflated prices. This is a government-created black market that differs only in degree from the "illegal drug" market, not in kind.

 

[CZ-75]

Maybe im just dense here Tamara but, i dont get it. Care to elaborate?

Did the local competition (e.g., Piggly Wiggly) come shoot up your store for splitting up the sales revenue generated in that area on tobacco and alcohol?