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Another Glock Kaboom

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by GW Staar, Jul 16, 2011.

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  1. GW Staar

    GW Staar Member

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    A new case. Unsupported case head strikes again.

    Reported on AR15.com
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2011
  2. beeenbag

    beeenbag Member

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    Call it what you will but being handloads using titegroup and the looks of the case I would bet next years salary it was a double charge.
     
  3. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    Headspace might be the problem now, but I'm with GW Staar, a double charge indeed.
    I have been criticized time and time again because I won't use powders other than the slowest of burning. Not only do the slow burning powders typically produce some of the best all around high performance, but they also make it nearly impossible to double charge. And if the spilled powder should inadvertantly get over looked, many slow burner's won't produce excessive pressures of the type that KB a firearm.
    Even the most competent handloader who checks and double checks his work can make a mistake, were human. So why not eliminate or reduce one of the most dangerous and distructive of mistakes to a minimum by using a powder that won't allow a double charge to be easily over looked. I realize not everyone wants loads that are full house, and many also load using lead too. But those loads come at a price and risk that in my opinion, is non negotiable.
    Thank God no one was killed or seriously injured. The gun can be replaced.
     
  4. GW Staar

    GW Staar Member

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    I'm not calling it anything. .45's don't have quite the same rep as .40 in a Glock, so you may very well be right.....maybe.

    These things got my attention:
    1. cases were used 5 or 6 times.
    2. It blew out the feed ramp where typically it happens for unsupported brass.

    Double-charge or not....it found the weak spot down the ramp and into the magazine. A double-charge has done, can do a lot more damage than that.

    Another post in the tread talked about a .45 Gold Cup double-charge Kaboom many years ago....so it can happen to any gun with a double-charge.

    I would be careful with brass shot out of an unsupported chamber too many times tho. May buy you a similar experience.
     
  5. beeenbag

    beeenbag Member

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    Yeah it found the weak spot. Unless the chamber itself explodes the only other place to go is backwards somewhere and I would prefer it to be down the magwell.
     
  6. PO2Hammer

    PO2Hammer Member

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  7. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    People who think a cartridge case is supposed to carry load are sadly mistaken.

    It is a gas seal, if it is not supported it will blow.
     
  8. GaryL

    GaryL Member

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    Have a really good friend (lives several states away) who was at a range with a local friend who was shooting a brand new Glock in 45acp that had a kaboom. My friend was spotting for the guy, and saw the first few rounds go down range and strike the target, and said all the rounds sounded right, except the last one was more like a poofftt, and the next thing he knows is his buddy is looking at his bleeding hand like WTH just happened? Said it was a classic moment in retrospect, as no serious damage was done to the shooter. Anyway, they are both engineers, and were both convinced it was an out of battery problem.

    My buddy has loaded several hundreds of thousands of rounds, and has had a couple double charge kabooms in 45 acp in steel framed pistols over the years. He said it was obvious they were double charged, blew the mag out of the gun, so he slapped another mag in and kept right on shooting. As far as I know, he has switched to slower powders. He said he did, but I don't see him often enough to know if that's 100% true.
     
  9. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    hmmmmmm, 20+ years of reloading for a Glock and no issues

    Sounds like operator error
     
  10. THe Dove

    THe Dove BOOMER SOONER!!!

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    ^^^^^^^

    The Dove
     
  11. bds

    bds Member

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    16+ years of reloading for Glocks and 250,000+ rounds of 9mm/40S&W/45ACP in various Glocks and I have not experienced problems. HOWEVER, there are issues to consider.

    KaBooms happen not just in Glocks (KBs existed long before Glocks and plenty of 1911s have blown up and I personally have seen many other brand KBs) and I have seen them in higher pressure 40S&W and lower pressure 45ACP also. Most of the cases involved suspected double charges and rest were probable mixed up powders/load data that led to overcharges.

    One of many reasons why I endorse the use of Lone Wolf barrels in Glocks is this. If you use mixed range brass (and most of us do), you have no idea how many times the brass has been reloaded (some of us tumble polish our brass until they have mirror shine so you can't tell :D) or how hot/over max they were loaded to. When we run across bulged "Glocked" brass, some will recommend the use of Lee FCD "Bulge Buster"/Redding G-RX to push-through size the base of the bulged cases, but the repeated bulging and resizing of case walls will just add to the weakening of the brass. Eventually, high pressure gas may escape through weakened case wall if support is not there and overpressure situation exists. I will say that for 9mm/40S&W Glock barrels, Gen3 and newer provide comparable case base support at the ramp area compared to other factory barrels. HOWEVER, 40 S&W Glock chambers are still more generous/wider, allowing bulges to occur about 2/3 way down the case neck (see comparison picture below). In comparison, Lone Wolf barrels have very tight chambers (tightest I know) and won't allow bulging of cases. It is my opinion that cases not bulging extends case life and minimize weakening of brass. Besides, resizing spent LW cases takes significantly less effort.

    I have reloaded and shot matches with G22s and a lot of Montana Gold jacketed bullets using high range load data of W231. My Glock cases show no bulging or just slight bulging that gets resized with regular Lee carbide resizing dies (no, I don't need to push-through resize with FCD). If I use max/over max loads (can you say 9mm major?), I prefer to use Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels with thicker chamber/barrel or fully supported LW 40S&W barrel for extra level of insurance.

    Below are comparison pictures of my Gen3 Glock and LW barrels.

    Gen3 Glock 27 barrel shows better case base support at the ramp area than Gen1/Gen2 Glocks of the past, but is still very wide at the case base at the ramp area and around the case (2 O'clock to 10 O'clock). In comparison, LW 40S&W barrel shows full support of case base, especially at the ramp area and much tighter all around the case.

    [​IMG]


    Over the years, I have not witnessed any 9mm Glock KB. This picture may explain why. Gen3 Glock 17 barrel on the left shows exposed case base at the ramp area, but the rest of the chamber is tight against the case. In comparison, LW 40-9mm conversion barrel shows better case base support at the ramp area and tight support around the case. The tighter support of 9mm Glock chamber (even there's exposed case base at the ramp area) may minimize repeated bulging and reduction of case during resizing that may weaken the brass.

    [​IMG]


    I usually recommend to people that reload for Glocks that if they see bulges in cases to reduce their powder charge or change powder. Can LW barrels extend case life and possibly prevent a Glock KB? I can't say for certain but have done tests of once-fired 9mm/40S&W cases in Lone Wolf barrels with mid to high range load data of W231/HP-38. Even after 50 reloadings, I have not gotten case failure. I may do a test to see how many times I can reload before a case actually fails.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2011
  12. diriel

    diriel Member

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    Obviously I am new to site,
    @BDS,
    Thank you for your informative post! My mentor uses Bullseye for many of his different pistols. I double charged my semi custom 1911 ONCE, and I decided right there to never, not ever, use a powder that is capable of double charging in any type of firearm. Hey, Crap Happens! If you shoot 2-3k rounds a month like I Used To with my old .45 auto 1911 semi customised Norinco, then it just makes sense to me to take adequate precautions. Me and the 1911 both survived, but that was one day at the range that was not fun, as I am one of those anal retentive types :) I just could not quit thinking about that *BANG*..."oh crap what just happened?"

    Nice to read such a well reasoned and informative post as your is BDS.
    Gary
     
  13. bluetopper

    bluetopper Member

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    Titegroup has blown up more guns than any powder I know of, even many 500 S&W Magnums.
     
  14. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    Again, that means Operator Error
     
  15. jfrey

    jfrey Member

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    That is the main reason I load with Unique powder. A double charge in a 9mm case will definately make a mess and you should notice it if you are paying proper attention. I also use an auto indexing progressive press which will also cut down on it.
     
  16. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    A double charge of Unique will make a mess in luger, alright. With 124 jacketed bullets, I load 'em almost all the way to the top. To fit more than a 1.1x overcharge I'd have to double compress the powder.

    Here's something I tried before. Google Unique + overcharge/doublecharge/kaboom. Good luck finding anything.
     
  17. Oathkeeper1775

    Oathkeeper1775 Member

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    Is there a stand alone document that list powders on their rate of buring that one could point me to?
     
  18. ReloaderFred

    ReloaderFred Member

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  19. GW Staar

    GW Staar Member

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    In spite of my poor stutter start this thread has turned out as I hoped, informative.

    Glocks latest incarnations of the .40 and .45 models seem to have better case support. That's got to be good. It won't help a double-charge, but it will help brass to last longer and perhaps not fail in a painful way.:rolleyes:

    Reloading for Glocks still require extra care, mostly because of the unconventional rifling, that many think causes more leading than conventional rifling while using non-jacketed bullets. Excessive pressure from a leaded barrel is one of several common Glock kaboom theories. It would be nice if someone trustworthy and not connected to Glock or his enemies, would do a scientific study to test that theory.

    Case setback (from chambering a particular round over and over) is another theory. So don't keep the same round at the top of the magazine....shoot it rather than rechamber it over and over.

    One thing is sure. Glocks are accurate ultra-reliable handguns taylor-made for police work using factory loads with jacketed or plated bullets. The other sure thing, is that those safe and accurate loads can be duplicated by careful reloaders, as long as compromised cases are not used, nor bullets used that Mr. Glock did not design for. OAL and bullet/case tension are also factors for safety.

    People are right when they say any gun can Kaboom. Glocks just happen to have the dubious statistic of having more examples on the internet to read about.;) Reminds me of the Corsair fighter plane in WW2. The US navy was ready to scrap it, because their pilots kept crashing them on take off. They gave them to the Marines and the Royal Navy. The Royal Navy took all they could get (they needed carrier fighters bad), and what do you know, they learned how to fly them. No more accidents....the Navy took another look....the rest is history.

    That's what I suggest: We need to learn from the mistakes we read about that caused kabooms and learn to reload for them correctly.

    To you guys who have been reloading for them without problems for years: how about sharing your recipes that work over and over. (bullet, case, powder) The rest of us can use that info to learn to "fly".....I think that's why we are all here.:)
     
  20. beeenbag

    beeenbag Member

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    for 9mm, I use 5.3g Unique under a 124g plated bullet, with CCI primers. Its a mild target load but is the most accurate load I have developed for it.
     
  21. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I have or have had Glocks in every caliber except 45 gap and some have fired nothing except reloads, not one KB. I have used Tite group for 45, 40, 10mm, 38spl/357 and 9MM again never a KB. I do pay attention to what I am doing when loading.

    Blaming any gun or powder for the reloaders irresponsibility is a good way to repeat the mistake as you rid yourself of acountability. Some folks need a Smokey the bear moment. "Only you can prevent KB's."
     
  22. RandyP

    RandyP Member

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    This is copied from the referenced AR15.com thread posted by 1911smith and IMHO says it all, NOT a Glock kaboom, a neglectful reloader kaboom:

    "Glock, Titegroup, 550B. The perfect prelude to a blowup.

    This ought to piss a lot of people off. O'Well. I find truth to be the best medicine for what ails you.

    Glocks don't survive ka-booms well, your lucky case head gave out before pressure could have built in chamber or what could have happened, would look like Wingman's picture.

    45acp brass used in any pistol should last a lifetime. I loose more brass to being lost than lost to cracks at case mouth, 2 to 3 maybe per year.

    Titegroup is the worst powder choice in the event of double charge as it's unforgiving.

    A press that doesn't auto advance such as a Dillon 550 is a double charge in the making without a vigil eye and keen sense of what's going on at every stage on your press.

    I can guaran-double-tee ya this is a double charge. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If your going to insure it never happens again you need to own it.

    Since I load with one I can tell you how this happened, or present a scenario or two.

    Scenario 1) Primer arm failed to deliver a primer, rather than pulling arm back to load primer you might have pulled handle resulting in double charge.

    Scenario 2) There was a distraction and attention was focused else where. Having forgot exactly what stage in loading progression, case mouth was presented twice for drop. It's easier done that most of us will admit too.

    The cure... an eyeball in every case before seating bullet. In my case with RL450. I first check to see if there's powder in case before seating bullet and then check to insure powder was dropped before advancing press to seat bullet. You might think this to be redundant. Once in a habit these two processes happen in two quick glances as you manually index press.

    You can debate this is a Glock issue until the cows come home and the rooster crows. This is a reloader issue. Plain and Simple.

    I've loaded hundreds of thousands of 45acp rounds and what's pictured doesn't happen inside a 45acp case with 4.5 grains of Titegroup. In fact, I highly doubt that would have happened with 5.5 grains Titegroup with a 230 grain bullet.


    P.S. eta, ie and more..... I would pull every last bullet loaded in that last batch, if'in it were me.

    One more thought and observation. When I see powder in cases at station two and three BEFORE seating bullet..... The show stops right there and buttons are pulled and powder is emptied from brass. Period."
     
  23. GaryL

    GaryL Member

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    I know it's hard to fathom, but some guns can fire while slightly out of battery. It's not typical or common, but it can happen.
     
  24. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    Hmmm....Think I'll stick with my old Tried-and-True Colt Gov't Model .45. No special instructions or things to watch for. Just load and shoot.....and shoot...and shoot....and shoot...

    35W
     
  25. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    Off the top of my head, I use either Unique or Universal Clays with a 124 bullet - either plated or jacketed, sp primer, mixed brass. IIRC, the charge is somewhere between 4.5 and 5 grains (my notebook isn't handy at the moment), but it is a published load and NOT a max load. I have found over 30 years of loading rifle, handgun, and shotgun, that what is the most accurate in my guns has always tended to be a mid-range load.

    To me, velocity without accuracy is a waste of components and time
     
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