Another hole in the memory question.

[Captain Quack]

OAL this time. How far under/over can a OAL be before it's not acceptable? I've been loading up some RMR 115gr FMJ-RN with 5.3 gr Unique with an OAL of 1.12 (thank you all for your help with that!). OAL from 1.118 - 113.5. If I understand correctly, as long as they plunk and twist in the chamber they are fine, correct? After the accident, there are still holes in my memory. ("There is a hole in your mind" Who gets the reference?)

Captain Quack.

 

[kalielkslayer]

Sounds like you’re talking 9mm?

You’re correct, if it plunks, it’ll work.

I’m guessing you’re using mixed headstamp brass?

I always strive for more consistency than .0045 but if it’s mixed brass, that may be the best you can do.

 

[Captain Quack]

Sorry. Yes. 9mm. Mostly new Winchester brass. I got a deal on 1K cases a couple of months ago. That's mixed in with my old mixed brass. Not a big fan of range brass. I am striving for 1.195 to 1.135. Is that acceptable? Plink works in both pistols, so I guess I'm good to go.

 

[Arleyg]

Hey Captain, was that accident when you turned a certain age, because I believe it happened to me too. Got to make a list of everything to do, or I forget!!

 

[WeekendReloader]

Sorry. Yes. 9mm. Mostly new Winchester brass. I got a deal on 1K cases a couple of months ago. That's mixed in with my old mixed brass. Not a big fan of range brass. I am striving for 1.195 to 1.135. Is that acceptable? Plink works in both pistols, so I guess I'm good to go.

1.195" - 1.135" is a difference of 0.060". That is a HUGE range and I think would be unsafe.

I strive for +/-0.005. (which is a 0.010" range)

For example: I loaded some 9mm rounds with the same starting charge at 1.150" and 1.100". The 1.150" rounds were weak and would not cycle the slide. The 1.100" rounds were more powerful and cycled the slide with authority.

 

[LiveLife]

How far under/over can a OAL be before it's not acceptable? RMR 115gr FMJ-RN ... OAL 1.12 ... from 1.118 - 113.5

9mm ... if it plunks, it’ll work

Not quite.

9mm is a tapered case and 115 gr FMJ/RN, which has shorter bullet base than other 9mm bullet weights, if loaded shorter than 1.100", will start to lose neck tension to where bullet will simply fall into the case.

While I typically load 115 gr FMJ/RN to 1.130"-1.135", when I am pursuing accuracy, I increase neck tension by seating 115 gr FMJ/RN deeper but no shorter than 1.110" to give me a bit of buffer as my OAL spread is around .003" to .005" using mixed range brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...x-pack-pro-pro-6000-kit.913577/#post-12564288

Atlanta Arms who supplies US Army AMU/Marine teams and supplied Team Glock used to load Elite Match AMU 115 gr FMJ/RN (Their most accurate 9mm match load) to 1.130"-1.135" but in recent years shortened the OAL to 1.110" +/- .005" - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

 

[Captain Quack]

I got T-boned by a teen girl when she ran a stop light while texting on her phone. My head bounced off the pillar and kind of broke up a bit. I've lost a lot of my memories. I don't even remember my wedding anymore. Doctors say they may come back or they may not. WeekendReloader. I'm looking at OAL. Not powder load. I got the 5.3 of unique out of the Western Load data PDF for my RMR bullets. Mid-range is all I ever load for. I have a brand-new Lee AutoDisk powder measure and with the conversion chart and a little adjustment, my powder loads are 5.1+ to 5.3+. Within load data range. LiveLife. I had a couple of 1.1low and tossed them into the to be pulled tray. I figured that just didn't look right. I meter every one of these since I'm setting up plinking rounds. Maybe I should have mentioned that to start. We're (My Wife and I) are working on putting 10 rds into a paper plate at 10 yards for now. Not looking for extreme accuracy, but we do use commercial SD for that Practice. These we use just for fun. But I do appreciate the information. Arleyg. When I hit 55 things started getting lost in the brain box. When I hit 60 it actually improved until the accident. I use some software on my phone to remind me of appointments and all my daily tasks. I always used to lose lists, so that didn't work. I was using my wife as a portable memory, lol. For me smarter than me phones have been a blessing.

Captain Quack

 

[LiveLife]

If you want to be sure, test neck tension by feeding dummy rounds from the magazine without riding the slide (Let the slide slam on the round to bump nose on the feed ramp).

If you measure significant bullet setback, you can try slightly longer OAL to compensate, use thicker wall brass and/or slightly larger sized bullet (Since you are using RMR with .3555" sizing, it should help).

 

[Captain Quack]

I'll do that this afternoon, LiveLife. After this week's second doctor's appointment, lol.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Im glad to your here to tell us what happened. Praying for a full recovery.

 

[AJC1]

I don't understand the huge swings. Maybe I cheat by using bullets like the rmr match winner and other flat point bullets but .002 total variation is my range. .005 isn't bad I guess but .010+ total variation seems just silly. Does one need to lower their standards to load progressive???

 

[NMexJim]

I was loading some .380 and 9mm the other day and was thinking about you. I took some pictures of my case gauges and some examples that might help w/ COAL. There are two manufacturers shown - the longer is a Wilson Max Pistol gauge and the other is a Hornady. They work the same, but if I had to choose I'd take the Wilson.

So, the last photo shows cases deprimed and sized. They fit flush, and I know they are sized correctly. If the decapped and sized cases won't go flush, then there is a sizing or case length issue.

I was loading HSM round nose 124-grain FMJ and purposely seated them too long. As you can see in the first photo, the cartridges will not seat flush. I reseated to 1.160 and the cartridges now are flush as in the second photo. I normally don't stay at max length and so reseated to 1.150 which is where I loaded all the rest.

I think your hundred blocks will work the same. Check if there is a ridge inside, This ridge would be the max case length. If you have the ridge, you can check deprimed and sized cases for correct sizing. After you seat a bullet, you should be able to see where the max length for almost any bullet would be. If you're loading a flat point, then the ogive will limit your OAL. Different FMJs? The max length will guide you.

My gauge stays near my press while loading. If something doesn't feel right then I gauge that round. I don't gauge everything.

 

[longdayjake]

There is a lot to break down here. First, are you saying that when you load you're getting an OAL variance from 1.13-1.19? or are you saying that you're trying to find a good OAL somewhere between those numbers? If you're loads are fluctuating that much there is something else going on. If you're just looking for a good OAL I personally like 1.145 for most of our RN bullets (I own RMR). Your first post however says that you're getting between 1.113" and 1.118? If thats the case you're fine. 1.12" is a pretty common oal if not a little short. That said, theres a lot of stupid gun manufacturers out there who've made barrels with no leade so loaders are forced to seat bullets stupid deep.

Now, as an aside, I was doing some troubleshooting for a customer this weekend who called to complain about bullets that were way undersized. (The way we make our bullets it is impossible to be undersized). He said bullets were falling out of loaded cases and he measured them at .340". That's crazy undersized. That basically told me 90% of what I needed to know. After having the usual "I've been doing this for 40 years and never had this issue with any bullets but yours" discussion, I finally got him to answer a few of my questions. He was using 147s and mixed range brass with a seating depth of 1.10." On top of that he was using a lee factory crimp die to "get rid of the bulge."

Here's what he was doing. He was seating the bullet so deep into the casing that the base was getting into the thicker part of the brass and causing it to bulge out. Then, he was squishing the bulge back out with the lee factory crimp die. Unfortunately what that does is resize the bullet and destroy any neck tension that it might have had. I had him raise his oal to 1.135" and use a different crimp die and his problem completely disappeared.

So, the moral of the story is you can seat too deep. This can cause two issues. First, it can needlessly increase pressures. Second, it can make ammo that won't chamber or it can result in undersized bullets. So, my advice is to seat as long as is practical. Just remember that you have to have enough bullet in the casing for neck tension AND the bullet can't contact the rifling until you've pulled the trigger. If the round won't spin in the chamber it's usually because the OAL is too long and the bullet is touching the rifling. It can also be a bulged casing but it's usually not.

Oh, and the second moral of the story is sometimes it's okay to ask a professional for help even if you have 40 years of experience.

 

[AJC1]

There is a lot to break down here. First, are you saying that when you load you're getting an OAL variance from 1.13-1.19? or are you saying that you're trying to find a good OAL somewhere between those numbers? If you're loads are fluctuating that much there is something else going on. If you're just looking for a good OAL I personally like 1.145 for most of our RN bullets (I own RMR). Your first post however says that you're getting between 1.113" and 1.118? If thats the case you're fine. 1.12" is a pretty common oal if not a little short. That said, theres a lot of stupid gun manufacturers out there who've made barrels with no leade so loaders are forced to seat bullets stupid deep.

Now, as an aside, I was doing some troubleshooting for a customer this weekend who called to complain about bullets that were way undersized. (The way we make our bullets it is impossible to be undersized). He said bullets were falling out of loaded cases and he measured them at .340". That's crazy undersized. That basically told me 90% of what I needed to know. After having the usual "I've been doing this for 40 years and never had this issue with any bullets but yours" discussion, I finally got him to answer a few of my questions. He was using 147s and mixed range brass with a seating depth of 1.10." On top of that he was using a lee factory crimp die to "get rid of the bulge."

Here's what he was doing. He was seating the bullet so deep into the casing that the base was getting into the thicker part of the brass and causing it to bulge out. Then, he was squishing the bulge back out with the lee factory crimp die. Unfortunately what that does is resize the bullet and destroy any neck tension that it might have had. I had him raise his oal to 1.135" and use a different crimp die and his problem completely disappeared.

So, the moral of the story is you can seat too deep. This can cause two issues. First, it can needlessly increase pressures. Second, it can make ammo that won't chamber or it can result in undersized bullets. So, my advice is to seat as long as is practical. Just remember that you have to have enough bullet in the casing for neck tension AND the bullet can't contact the rifling until you've pulled the trigger. If the round won't spin in the chamber it's usually because the OAL is too long and the bullet is touching the rifling. It can also be a bulged casing but it's usually not.

Oh, and the second moral of the story is sometimes it's okay to ask a professional for help even if you have 40 years of experience.

I've loaded a pile of your 115 mmw at 1.090 and never had an issue, but those obviously don't have the length of the heavier options. I don't shoot 9 any more so I'm buying piles of your 69 hpbt instead....

 

[Captain Quack]

After I size them, they go into my 7 hole case gauge flush. All of them. Then I run it through and put bullets in and some will sit flat and others will be raised up to different heights. That's seven that came off the press one after the other. My understanding is that they should come out of the seating die the same height. About 95% of the brass is new Winchester I got a big bulk deal on. The rest is almost all once shot of my own. I re metered some of the ones I considered "acceptable" to shoot and all the ones that went in the to be pulled bin. The seating die was not adjusted while I did this run of 50. The pistol will be a Ruger Max 9 and when it comes back from the manufacture a Taurus G3C

Acceptable. Pulled out of the box of 50 and measured at random.
1.127
1.117
1.121
1.122
1.125

Pull bin
1.112
1.137
1.131
1.129
1.134
1.144
1.116
1.141
1.139
1.139
1.136
1.135
1.115
1.109
1.118
1.138
1.115
1.134
1.138
1.138
1.135

Maybe my meter is cacked? I zero after each test. I have a new seating die arriving tomorrow. Outside possibility of a bad die. I still suspect the problem is between the chair and the lever.
Captain Quack. (Who does not have 40 years of experience and knows he knows almost nothing about reloading beyond the very basic basics and is not afraid to ask people much more knowledgeable than himself.)

 

[AJC1]

After I size them, they go into my 7 hole case gauge flush. All of them. Then I run it through and put bullets in and some will sit flat and others will be raised up to different heights. That's seven that came off the press one after the other. My understanding is that they should come out of the seating die the same height. About 95% of the brass is new Winchester I got a big bulk deal on. The rest is almost all once shot of my own. I re metered some of the ones I considered "acceptable" to shoot and all the ones that went in the to be pulled bin. The seating die was not adjusted while I did this run of 50. The pistol will be a Ruger Max 9 and when it comes back from the manufacture a Taurus G3C

Acceptable. Pulled out of the box of 50 and measured at random.
1.127
1.117
1.121
1.122
1.125

Pull bin
1.112
1.137
1.131
1.129
1.134
1.144
1.116
1.141
1.139
1.139
1.136
1.135
1.115
1.109
1.118
1.138
1.115
1.134
1.138
1.138
1.135

Maybe my meter is cacked? I zero after each test. I have a new seating die arriving tomorrow. Outside possibility of a bad die. I still suspect the problem is between the chair and the lever.
Captain Quack. (Who does not have 40 years of experience and knows he knows almost nothing about reloading beyond the very basic basics and is not afraid to ask people much more knowledgeable than himself.)

I'm going to say you must have a bad seating stem fit and the bullets are deforming different amounts bases on seating pressure. This could also be coupled with flex in the plate if your using a multi station press. I don't know what your resources look like, but if you target shoot a lot a bag of rmr matchwinners of you choice in weight and a flat seating stem would help a lot in troubleshooting.

 

[Click_Here]

I wouldnt sweat it. Im assuming youre using a lee seating die in a lee turret press based on your previous thread. I literally have the same problem. Only difference is im using mixed brass.
7 sized cases will sit flush in that 7 hole, seat bullets and crimp then 1 or 2 no longer seat flush. Its either the bullet seating a bit crooked or the brass thickness of the mixed brass. I dont discard those that didnt sit flush, I simply check them in the barrel im loading them for and most of the time if not all the time, its fine. I will say that EGW gauge is TIGHT.

 

[Captain Quack]

It's a five head Lee Loadmaster with only 4 holes used. I found priming on the press a nightmare and hand prime. What I'm using the press for is just making plinking rounds. Load em up and shoot em out and have as much fun as you can and practice better control. For EDC we use commercial SD JHP. I'm not risking lives on my hand loads. 115 gr FMJ-RN I buy from the RMR people down the road from me is what I am loading. I'm using a Lee Factory Crimp die. Could that be causing the problem? Once I get more comfortable, I'll look at other weights. Our emphasis right now is 10 rds in a paper plate at 10 yards. I got into reloading when my Wife got seduced by Cowboy Action Shooting about 13 years ago and the cost of the special ammo was through the roof. It was also a present to myself for quitting smoking. Everything I was loading was cowboy loads for her on the Lee and some .303 British for myself on a Lyman turret Press. Pretty narrow specs on the CAS rounds, but I got it set thanks to a mentor (now living in Mexico) and never had to adjust anything because that's all I was loading. Now it's .38/357 for her revolvers (which I don't have any problems with) and the 9mm which is shall we say being "fractious"? I'll hopefully be able to test the new die tomorrow if I survive another trip to the Doctors. Click_Here. That's interesting to hear. So far, they have all passed the plink test. Once the weather gets more springish and warm enough, it's off to the range to see what works. It's rain in North Idaho for the next week or so so it will be a while. Normally, it's nice and warm by now. Thanks for all the help guys. With all the crap that's been landing on my family in the last few months, it's nice to see people so willing to help some stranger.
Captain Quack.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I got T-boned by a teen girl when she ran a stop light while texting on her phone. My head bounced off the pillar and kind of broke up a bit. I've lost a lot of my memories. I don't even remember my wedding anymore. Doctors say they may come back or they may not. WeekendReloader. I'm looking at OAL. Not powder load. I got the 5.3 of unique out of the Western Load data PDF for my RMR bullets. Mid-range is all I ever load for. I have a brand-new Lee AutoDisk powder measure and with the conversion chart and a little adjustment, my powder loads are 5.1+ to 5.3+. Within load data range. LiveLife. I had a couple of 1.1low and tossed them into the to be pulled tray. I figured that just didn't look right. I meter every one of these since I'm setting up plinking rounds. Maybe I should have mentioned that to start. We're (My Wife and I) are working on putting 10 rds into a paper plate at 10 yards for now. Not looking for extreme accuracy, but we do use commercial SD for that Practice. These we use just for fun. But I do appreciate the information. Arleyg. When I hit 55 things started getting lost in the brain box. When I hit 60 it actually improved until the accident. I use some software on my phone to remind me of appointments and all my daily tasks. I always used to lose lists, so that didn't work. I was using my wife as a portable memory, lol. For me smarter than me phones have been a blessing.

Captain Quack

Yikes! Hopefully it will all come back - or maybe just the good stuff. Nobody wants to remember their last prostate exam.
@LiveLife pretty much nailed it: there’s a good range for seating and a wide range of tolerances. I stick to +/- 0.005” with no worries. Even then as long as you keep the powder charges in the middle territory and don’t try to hot rod, you’ll be good to go.
Don’t worry and just try to heal up. No such thing as a dumb question.

 

[fxvr5]

9mm is a tapered case and 115 gr FMJ/RN, which has shorter bullet base than other 9mm bullet weights, if loaded shorter than 1.100", will start to lose neck tension to where bullet will simply fall into the case.

I can't get this to happen. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Captain Quack]

All the stuff about OAL appears to be one of the things lost. Lot of other reloading stuff too. And yes GeodudeFlorida. That is something I remember, lol. Lots of other things as well. It looks like I might have to learn to drive all over again. If so, I plan on having the car painted bright orange and taking out many media ads warning people, lol.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you're just looking for a good OAL I personally like 1.145 for most of our RN bullets (I own RMR).
...That said, theres a lot of stupid gun manufacturers out there who've made barrels with no leade so loaders are forced to seat bullets stupid deep.

Thanks for chiming in. Your experience is always invaluable as you are exposed to more issues than most reloaders will ever see.

I load your 124gr RN to 1.145" and your Matchwinners to 1.114" and they run through everything I own. However, I have an Apex (Tactical) Grade barrel in my M&P9 1.0 which is a laser with 147gr bullets...so I've been feeding it 147gr Heavy Matchwinners. I have to seat down to 1.08" OAL to get my loads to spin in the chamber. I sort my cases by headstamp and checked carefully for case bulge

" On top of that he was using a lee factory crimp die to "get rid of the bulge."

That is a perfect example of using the FCD to mask loading issues instead of checking your die setup and process. I do have a FCD because it can be useful under the correct circumstances...it isn't a cureall for poor process/technique

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Thanks for chiming in. Your experience is always invaluable as you are exposed to more issues than most reloaders will ever see.

I load your 124gr RN to 1.145" and your Matchwinners to 1.114" and they run through everything I own. However, I have an Apex (Tactical) Grade barrel in my M&P9 1.0 which is a laser with 147gr bullets...so I've been feeding it 147gr Heavy Matchwinners. I have to seat down to 1.08" OAL to get my loads to spin in the chamber. I sort my cases by headstamp and checked carefully for case bulge


That is a perfect example of using the FCD to mask loading issues instead of checking your die setup and process. I do have a FCD because it can be useful under the correct circumstances...it isn't a cureall for poor process/technique

The FCD should be like an old film noir love scene - a gentle kiss on the neck, then fade to black.
The other thing to check is the powder through die expander. I kinda wonder if maybe the neck is getting expanded crooked. I’m not a Progressive guy (in any way shape or form) but I have noticed that when I use the Lee hand press I get a case or two oriented wrong and they get expanded a little crooked. The OAL is typically about 10thousandths short on them.
Just a thought - something else to check.

 

[LiveLife]

9mm is a tapered case and 115 gr FMJ/RN, which has shorter bullet base than other 9mm bullet weights, if loaded shorter than 1.100", will start to lose neck tension to where bullet will simply fall into the case

I can't get this to happen. What am I doing wrong?

With straight wall case, deeper you seat the bullet, greater the neck tension from thickening of case wall towards case base.

With tapered 9mm case, deeper you seat the bullet, neck tension will continue to increase from thickening of case wall but at some point, taper of the case will start to decrease the neck tension and eventually will simply fall into case neck when pushed on top of bullet.

I used to check neck tension by pushing on bullet nose against the bench top. I was surprised when very short OAL dropped bullet down into the case and incrementally checked the threshold and turned out to be around 1.100" for many 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets (Of course, if you are using thicker walled case and/or larger sized bullet, there will be more neck tension and at the time, I was using Winchester 115 gr FMJ/RN with thinner Blazer brass).

 

[fxvr5]

With tapered 9mm case, deeper you seat the bullet, neck tension will continue to increase from thickening of case wall but at some point, taper of the case will start to decrease the neck tension and eventually will simply fall into case neck when pushed on top of bullet.

I used to check neck tension by pushing on bullet nose against the bench top. I was surprised when very short OAL dropped bullet down into the case and incrementally checked the threshold and turned out to be around 1.100" for many 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets (Of course, if you are using thicker walled case and/or larger sized bullet, there will be more neck tension and at the time, I was using Winchester 115 gr FMJ/RN with thinner Blazer brass).

I can't get this to happen with Blazer, Winchester, Starline or Lapua cases. Using Hornady 115 FMJ.