Another Lee FCD question

[Nordeste]

I know, I know. This horse has been beaten to death many times. I promise that I did my homework and somehow found some answers, however, I would still appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

So, Lee FCD on a LCT. HN HS RN, .356", 125 grains plated bullets. I have measured several of these bullets and they actually range from .355" to the nominal .356", with many in between at .3555". The pistol is a Star 30M. I run a slug through the bore and got a (somehow odd) .3545" measurement, so my estimation is that the .356" are the right choice, accuracy wise.

Having read some about the FCD, the plated and cast bullets, the swaging of those, etc, yesterday in the evening I decided to pull a few bullets and measured them. I had, previously, eased off on my crimp up to .379" from the previous .376", as I had noticed that, when pulled, my bullets showed a clearly visible dent in the coating (no bueno). Cases are, currently, CBC Magtech (case wall thickness ranging from .011" up to .012") and Remington UMC (case wall thickness .012-.0125"). OAL is 1.14", and I'm using 4.7 grains of a medium burn rate powder called Optima A (not available over there, AFAIK) for 1060 fps velocity.

Now for yesterday's results. My German made HN bullets measured .350" at the base, and .355-.3555" in their mid section. I'm guessing this is not good for accuracy. Even though the middle section of the projectile is within, or close to, its nominal specs, the base isn't. Perhaps the pressure from the chamber will help it sealing against the rifling, but still, I have a deformed bullet traveling through my bore and not stabilizing itself properly. This may explain why I was getting some weird groups when shooting from a rest at the 25 meters (+27 yards) range. I even had the pistol inspected. She's fine.

I seat and crimp separately. I'm flaring my cases' mouth to .3825", which I thought was enough. The bullet is held by the case vertically and nicely, with no help from my fingers required. I seat it and then crimp in the FCD. My bullet seating die is set as per the instructions, and I noticed that after seating the bullet, the flare was gone and the case mouth measured .381", with the neck showing a polished area, that, to me, indicates a taper crimp. I pulled this bullet (remember that this round had not been touched by the FCD, just the seating die) and it measured .3535".

My first thought was backing off my third die (bullet seater), as it looks like it's not just seating, but crimping also... even though I had set it as per the instructions. I'll do that tomorrow and see what results I get.

My question is if there is any way to get my copper plated bullets seated into the case and not deformed at the base, using the FCD for the final crimp?. I like the features of this die, as it ensures proper chambering and all I shoot is IPSC, but the loss of accuracy is somehow a concern. The guys who design the stages at my shooting club like to include small metal plates (like 5") at +50 ft every once in a while and that requires good trigger control and an accurate gun&ammo, if you wanna do it quickly and get a good hit factor.

I'm including a couple of pics, with and without flash, with a proper digital camera. Left to right:

- Resized and tumbled CBC Magtech case.
- Loaded round. Notice the case "telegraphs" the shape of the bullet, which I guess is good for neck tension, but I'm afraid it's also deforming my bullets .
- Fresh from the box HN RN bullet.
- Pulled from another loaded round HN RN bullet.
- Flared case.

If you've come this far and haven't lost the will to live , I'd appreciate your inputs on this. Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance.

 

[theslasher]

1/2 turn has always been just right for me..

 

[sexybeast]

I don't like CBC 9mm brass. I sort it out and only load FMJ with it. You should have no problems with plated though. With lead and especially truncated bullets the bulge created after seating is very apparent and the finished rounds won't case gauge.
I don't use a factory crimp die, it squishes or swages the bullet down to a smaller diameter, especially lead bullets. Your accuracy will suffer.
It probably won't hurt FMJ bullets though.

 

[1SOW]

The crimp is still too tight for that particular bullet.

Re flare: Don't measure the flare. Try to seat seat the bullet with minimum or even no flare, if it will just hold the bullet vertically without falling over, it's enough. The 9mm taper crimp is ONLY to remover the flare you added and maybe a very small amount more. A very slight "coke bottle" shape is okay.
The tapered sides of your bullet may add that shape--I don't know.

Pull the test bullet and it may have a very fine line at the case mouth (that's okay), but not deformed or cutting through the plating. That should keep you under .380" just below the case mouth. With straight sided .356" bullets I get .378-ish using the FCD for the "taper crimp" on plated bullets.

If the bullet is oversized, like.357 lead bullets, it will resize/deform the bullet.


Hope this makes sense

 

[JRWhit]

The Bullet seating die will also perform a roll crimp when adjusted per depth.
It sounds like the seating die is too deep and is starting a roll crimp on your rounds before getting to the fcd. Turn the die out 1/4-1/2 turn and re adjust the seating stem.
When setting up the seating die, I started using an empty piece of brass.
Cartridge in shell holder and ram in full up position, I screw the seating die in," with seating stem turned out", until it just touches the rim of the brass, then turn out 1/4-1/2 turn and set the lock nut.
It is a bit more accurate per cartridge length than the standard 3 turns out and helped me prevent an issue I had from reoccurring.

 

[LiveLife]

If you want to shoot accurately at matches, you NEED to use match quality ammunition or you will remain at the bottom of the match ladder.

- FMJ/JHP bullets will produce greater accuracy than plated bullets. I even get greater accuracy from my lead loads than plated bullets. If you want accurate enough match loads to be competitive, you need to use jacketed bullets or plated bullets with hollow base. As a reference, you'll need loads that can produce 1"-1.5" shot groups at 15 yards.

- If you want to squeeze out much accuracy from plated bullets, use the longest OAL/COL that will chamber in your pistol/barrel. I would start from 1.169" and incrementally decrease the length until the finished round reliably feed/chamber from the magazine. Then I would try different powder and charges (full powder work up) to identify the most accurate powder/charge for the bullet.

- Once you identify the most accurate match load, range test in your match pistol to verify consistent accuracy. Do a trigger polish job to reduce your shot group size. For action pistol match shooting like IPSC, you need to be able to consistently produce 2"-4" double taps at 7-25 yards. If you can't, you need to practice until you can. If your match ammunition/pistol can't do that, you may need to replace your bullet, powder and/or pistol/barrel.

FWIW, I do not use FCD for my match loads. I chamber check every finished round in the tightest match barrel I have.

Best advise I can give you is talk to the top shooters in your local/regional IPSC matches and find out what they use. When I talked to top shooters in my local/regional USPSA matches, they were happy to coach me on reloading components and pistol/barrel set up and tips on how to engage different targets in different stage set ups. None of the top shooters used FCD (although some used Lee dies) and they all used Montana Gold jacketed bullets with several different powders depending on whether they used compensator on their pistols.

YMMV

 

[Nordeste]

Thanks for your inputs, gents

I've taken two of my factory rounds, pulled the bullet and measured. Both are FMJ, one is a 115 grain Santa Bárbara military (a Spanish company now owned by General Dynamics) round, and the other was a commercially available Magtech 124 grain. Both have measured .353" at the base . And those had not been through my FCD.

I'm gonna take your advice and ease off on my crimp a little bit more, readjust my seating die and do the plunk test on my barrel. The one thing that has surprised me a bit is that the seating die will perform a roll crimp. I knew it did crimp when screwed in a bit deeper, but my thought was that it would do a taper crimp, given that this particular die set is for a pistol round and a roll crimp, AFAIK, is used on revolver ammo. I won't contradict JRWhit on this as I have no data on the contrary, just expressing my surprise on this.

 

[Nordeste]

The Bullet seating die will also perform a roll crimp when adjusted per depth.
It sounds like the seating die is too deep and is starting a roll crimp on your rounds before getting to the fcd. Turn the die out 1/4-1/2 turn and re adjust the seating stem.
When setting up the seating die, I started using an empty piece of brass.
Cartridge in shell holder and ram in full up position, I screw the seating die in," with seating stem turned out", until it just touches the rim of the brass, then turn out 1/4-1/2 turn and set the lock nut.
It is a bit more accurate per cartridge length than the standard 3 turns out and helped me prevent an issue I had from reoccurring.

Could you explain the paragraph in bold a bit further, please?. Do you mean the rim or the case mouth?. I understand that I should place a case in the shell holder, remove the seating stem, and screw the die until I feel it contacts the case (mouth). If I try to screw it further I find noticeable resistance and the case gets crimped, and as you say, it looks like it actually does a roll crimp.

 

[GLOOB]

Have you measured pulled bullets that didn't go through the FCD? I would not be surprised if they measured small, too. There could be another half of your problem. Plated bullets are very soft. They can be swaged by the case. Even hard cast bullets can suffer this.

 

[Nordeste]

Have you measured pulled bullets that didn't go through the FCD? I would not be surprised if they measured small, too. There could be another half of your problem. Plated bullets are very soft. They can be swaged by the case. Even hard cast bullets can suffer this.

Just did, Gloob. Part of what was happening was that the third die (bullet seater) was screwed in as per the instructions (screw in until it touches the shell holder, then back off three full turns). Doing this, it was seating the bullet, straightening the case wall and applying a crimp, all in one. I backed it off a full turn and put a flared case in the shell holder. I seated a bullet and the round came down with the bullet seated and the case partially straightened, but with some flare (very slight) still visible. I pulled that bullet and was perfectly within specs at .3555". The bad news is that after running another round through the FCD, it did remove the flare (applied a taper crimp, that is), but when I proceeded to pull the bullet and examined it, it was, again, measuring .353".

The other bad new is that living in Europe, we can't enjoy the superb customer support you guys enjoy in the US, because even though there is an importer, there isn't a Lee factory where I could send my FCD to. I will, nevertheless, contact them tonight and let them know what is going on. I'm sure they will reply promptly and try to be helpful, but in the event that I just got a lemon and my FCD is out of whacks, sending the die to them for inspection is not an option. Just the shipping will cost more than the die, even if I paid just the shipment to the US and they paid the return shipping. The other option is that the FCD is simply not suitable for use with plated bullets. Perhaps it's meant for jacketed bullets and works best with them.

What I'm doing next is unscrew it from the press and see if the carbide ring can be disassembled easily. That would turn it into a regular taper crimp die. If this isn't possible, I'll probably order a Dillon or Redding taper crimp die.

 

[ATLDave]

Try this. Unscrew the top portion of the FCD several turns. Put round with a seated bullet, still flared case, in the holder and raise the ram. It should go in with very little resistance. Now, with the ram raised, screw down the top portion of the FCD until you hit resistance. You've just identified the spot where (with that length of case) the FCD will start applying crimp. Gradually turn the top knob in small increments (say 30° at a time) until you're getting the amount of crimp you want - basically, just enough to take the flare out. Measure and see if you like the results.

One other point. When you say the bullet is measuring smaller after the crimp, do you mean it's creating a little canellure? Is that what you're measuring? I shoot lots of plated rounds and, when pulled, they have a small ring where they have been crimped. But the bullet below that ring is still the original size. And they shoot just fine.

 

[JRWhit]

Sorry, I was only 1 cup of coffee's worth of awake when I typed that. You turn the seating die in until it touches the case mouth. Then back it out to keep from crimping with the seating die if you desire to crimp with the factory die.
I must correct myself on the style crimp that the seating die performs. I do not know for certain if it is rolled or taper per your set. The instructions provided should tell you.

 

[Nordeste]

Sorry, I was only 1 cup of coffee's worth of awake when I typed that. You turn the seating die in until it touches the case mouth. Then back it out to keep from crimping with the seating die if you desire to crimp with the factory die.
I must correct myself on the style crimp that the seating die performs. I do not know for certain if it is rolled or taper per your set. The instructions provided should tell you.

You were right, IMHO. I did run a case through the die until I found resistance, with no bullet on top, and it "rolled" the brass onto itself. I would call that a roll crimp, or at least, it looks like it.

I did several trial and error tests until I found that I had to back off the die a full turn and some more, if I wanted it to seat the bullet but leave a tiny amount of belling on the case. Case mouth measuring .383". Then I run it through the FCD, setting it to perform a very slight crimp, and pulled the bullet. Sadly enough, the bottom of the projectile measured .353", so it was still swaging it.

I have been playing with the FCD, unscrewing it a couple of turns and it turned out that the pulled bullets measured .354". Still out of specs.

Gonna send that e-mail to Lee Precision and head to bed . Thanks all.

 

[Nordeste]

Try this. Unscrew the top portion of the FCD several turns. Put round with a seated bullet, still flared case, in the holder and raise the ram. It should go in with very little resistance. Now, with the ram raised, screw down the top portion of the FCD until you hit resistance. You've just identified the spot where (with that length of case) the FCD will start applying crimp. Gradually turn the top knob in small increments (say 30° at a time) until you're getting the amount of crimp you want - basically, just enough to take the flare out. Measure and see if you like the results.

One other point. When you say the bullet is measuring smaller after the crimp, do you mean it's creating a little canellure? Is that what you're measuring? I shoot lots of plated rounds and, when pulled, they have a small ring where they have been crimped. But the bullet below that ring is still the original size. And they shoot just fine.

Starting from the end, what I'm measuring and that turns out to be out of specs (smaller than it should be) is the bullet at its very base, just a bit above where the hollow base is. The little cannelure you mention, I used to have it, but after being advised (here, where else ) that it was no bueno and that I should back my crimp off a little bit, I did so. Now when I pull the bullets there is not indention or very, very subtle.

What you advise in the first paragraph is, or so looks to me, how the instructions advise that the FCD should be set. I have followed this procedure and on following it, is when I have realized that the FCD was swaging my plated bullets and reducing their diameter. Turns out this is a "feature" of the Lee FCD. I'm now surfing the web for some more info, and it looks like there's been people who have had their FCD sent to Lee who have re-machined them. This is not an option for me, but if at least I could get some guidance from them so as to know how much material should be shaved off, I could have my FCD machined. I have a good friend who is a machinist/welder.

 

[LiveLife]

You can knock out the carbide sizer ring from FCD and end up with a taper crimp die.

This way you can use the 3rd die to seat the bullet only and use the "modified" FCD to taper crimp the round without post-sizing the bullet.

 

[Nordeste]

You can knock out the carbide sizer ring from FCD and end up with a taper crimp die.

This way you can use the 3rd die to seat the bullet only and use the "modified" FCD to taper crimp the round without post-sizing the bullet.

Have you tried that yourself?. I assume a hammer is involved. What other tool?. Do you think machining the carbide sizer is an option?.

I have already contacted Lee regarding the matter and awaiting response.

Edit: Question answered. Heating up the die and using a punch. Looks like the carbide sizer ring is glued or pressure inserted. I think I'm gonna try that.