Lee FCD for .45 acp strange behavior

[Harriw]

Hey folks,

So I got my new dies the other day and was setting them all up for .45 acp. Everything went as expected until I got to the crimp station and setup the Lee FCD. I have a few other FCD's for other calibers and have never run into this before, and wanted to make sure this was normal: When I run a sized, flared case up into the FCD there's no contact at all with the die until the very end when the crimp occurs (just taking the flare out of the mouth of the case really). However... If I seat a bullet first then run that case/bullet up in the die, the "sizing ring" on the FCD die makes contact immediately and "re-sizes" the case where the bullet is seated. I've never had that happen before - even with a seated bullet in all the other calibers I've ever used an FCD for there's no contact until the crimp takes place at the end of the handle throw.

Thinking about it, it occurs to me that the other 2 calibers I use an FCD with are 9mm and .30-30. 9mm is a tapered case, and .30-30 is obviously necked down. So I believe .45 acp is the first actual straight-walled cartridge I've ever used an FCD with. Is that "re-sizing" behavior normal for an FCD with seated bullet in straight-walled cartridges? Just want to make sure there's not something unusual going on here.

Thanks a lot!

 

[243winxb]

Is that "re-sizing" behavior normal for an FCD with seated bullet in straight-walled cartridges

Yes.



The Factory Crimp Die for pistols will not seat the bullet and crimp it, however it can post size the cases. Cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. https://support.leeprecision.net/en...-be-used-to-seat-bullets-and-adjust-the-crimp

 

[243winxb]

https://support.leeprecision.net/en/knowledgebase/article/carbide-factory-crimp-explanation Lee has me confused.

There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.

The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need.

 

[AJC1]

If I'm reading it correctly it is sizing on the way out not on the way in. Your over crimping and it's taking out a bulge.

 

[Hartkopf]

Hey folks,

So I got my new dies the other day and was setting them all up for .45 acp. Everything went as expected until I got to the crimp station and setup the Lee FCD. I have a few other FCD's for other calibers and have never run into this before, and wanted to make sure this was normal: When I run a sized, flared case up into the FCD there's no contact at all with the die until the very end when the crimp occurs (just taking the flare out of the mouth of the case really). However... If I seat a bullet first then run that case/bullet up in the die, the "sizing ring" on the FCD die makes contact immediately and "re-sizes" the case where the bullet is seated. I've never had that happen before - even with a seated bullet in all the other calibers I've ever used an FCD for there's no contact until the crimp takes place at the end of the handle throw.

Thinking about it, it occurs to me that the other 2 calibers I use an FCD with are 9mm and .30-30. 9mm is a tapered case, and .30-30 is obviously necked down. So I believe .45 acp is the first actual straight-walled cartridge I've ever used an FCD with. Is that "re-sizing" behavior normal for an FCD with seated bullet in straight-walled cartridges? Just want to make sure there's not something unusual going on here.

Thanks a lot!

This is very common. Thick wall cases or oversized bullets will make it much more noticeable. Plated 45ACP bullets that measure .452 or 40S&W that measure .401 should be used with the thinnest brass you can find or the FCD can "squeeze" the bullet to a smaller diameter with that bottom sizing ring. Now it might only reduce the bullet diameter to .451 or .400 but it is still smaller than what was intended for that type of bullet. Obviously the same applies for cast bullets. Again, this can happen with the bottom sizing ring so even if you are not "over crimping" at the top ring, you can end up with swaged bullets at a reduced diameter. Because of this, I sort my brass into thick and thin. Thin gets used with plated bullets and thick gets used with jacketed.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Hey folks,

So I got my new dies the other day and was setting them all up for .45 acp. Everything went as expected until I got to the crimp station and setup the Lee FCD. I have a few other FCD's for other calibers and have never run into this before, and wanted to make sure this was normal: When I run a sized, flared case up into the FCD there's no contact at all with the die until the very end when the crimp occurs (just taking the flare out of the mouth of the case really). However... If I seat a bullet first then run that case/bullet up in the die, the "sizing ring" on the FCD die makes contact immediately and "re-sizes" the case where the bullet is seated. I've never had that happen before - even with a seated bullet in all the other calibers I've ever used an FCD for there's no contact until the crimp takes place at the end of the handle throw.

Thinking about it, it occurs to me that the other 2 calibers I use an FCD with are 9mm and .30-30. 9mm is a tapered case, and .30-30 is obviously necked down. So I believe .45 acp is the first actual straight-walled cartridge I've ever used an FCD with. Is that "re-sizing" behavior normal for an FCD with seated bullet in straight-walled cartridges? Just want to make sure there's not something unusual going on here.

Thanks a lot!

I just made four 45ACP dummy rounds using the FCD…applying almost no crimp with four different headstamps using .452 plated bullets. NONE did as you describe. Edit: in fact I felt nearly zero resistance and had to drop cartridges in a gauge to ensure they were finished. So that’s how little crimp I added.

I load a fair amount of 45ACP and I nearly always use the FCD. I think I recall what you describe but I can’t be sure and I don’t have the components lying around at the moment to test further.

 

[Harriw]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback. This is happening while the cartridge is going IN to the die, not coming out. Indont recall the headstamp off the top of my head, but these are hornady 230gr XTPs, so they're copper jacketed.

Thanks!

 

[Blue68f100]

You should be able to load a 45acp with out the use of a LFCD. Use the std taper crimp and you should be good to go.

If your dead set on using the LFCD, Knock the post sizing ring out of the die and only use the crimp. Post sizing causes loss of neck tension.

Better yet throw it in the trash and learn how to setup your dies correctly.

 

[AJC1]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the feedback. This is happening while the cartridge is going IN to the die, not coming out. Indont recall the headstamp off the top of my head, but these are hornady 230gr XTPs, so they're copper jacketed.

Thanks!

Because I'm now intrigued, run an empty case up there and see if your having bell contact. I get a little bump from that when loading lead,

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I had one of my FCD pull the bullet out on the down stroke. I think it might have been 45acp too. It only happened that one time.

 

[Harriw]

Because I'm now intrigued, run an empty case up there and see if your having bell contact. I get a little bump from that when loading lead,

Yup, I tried that. An empty, belled case runs into the FCD without contacting the sizing ring. Goes in without contact until flare hits the crimping collet. I only get this sizing effect when a bullet is seated.

 

[Hartkopf]

How old are your dies? All of my Lee dies are about two years old so maybe they are tighter than some of the long timers older dies here on THR

 

[Harriw]

You should be able to load a 45acp with out the use of a LFCD. Use the std taper crimp and you should be good to go.

If your dead set on using the LFCD, Knock the post sizing ring out of the die and only use the crimp. Post sizing causes loss of neck tension.

Better yet throw it in the trash and learn how to setup your dies correctly.

I certainly could... but I far prefer crimping in a separate station from seating. I tend to try out different bullets and like to be able to change seatings depths quickly and easily without also having to re-adjust the crimp depth.

 

[Harriw]

How old are your dies? All of my Lee dies are about two years old so maybe they are tighter than some of the long timers older dies here on THR

These .45acp dies are brand new. (Using a Hornady 3-die taper crimp set, along with the Lee FCD for crimping).

My 9mm and .30-30 dies are only a few years old as well, and are also Hornady sets with Lee FCDs.

 

[Laphroaig]

You should be able to load a 45acp with out the use of a LFCD. Use the std taper crimp and you should be good to go.

If your dead set on using the LFCD, Knock the post sizing ring out of the die and only use the crimp. Post sizing causes loss of neck tension.

Better yet throw it in the trash and learn how to setup your dies correctly.

A little bit harsh, but probably true. I struggled with rounds that wouldn't "plunk" for some time with my RCBS dies and cast bullets because they were getting seated slightly crooked and creating a bulge. I readjusted many times and customized the seating stem so I'm positive die setup wasn't the issue, die tolerances were slightly out of whack allowing bullets' to be seated crooked. The FCD was a cheap and simple fix.

I finally bought a Redding competition seater which, due to its tight tolerance, fixed my problem instantly.

I see alot of talk about how the FCD somehow ruins your ammunition. Maybe some things get squeezed a little bit, but I never noticed a loss in accuracy or functioning. I wonder if a high-master bullseye shooter would complain?

 

[Jim Watson]

MY Lee CFC .45 die seldom sizes a jacketed or plated bullet except in the occasional thick walled case.
But with a cast bullet a thou or two larger, I can feel the sizing ring go bumpity bump from bearing band to lube groove to bearing band.

My Lee CFC 9mm die is similar except I can see a burnished ring down near the head where it sizes brass that the wide mouth Dillon die does not touch. Mixed 9mm brass is very variable and the rub marks over my present lot of coated bullets are different from headstamp to headstamp.

 

[Zendude]

Yup, I tried that. An empty, belled case runs into the FCD without contacting the sizing ring. Goes in without contact until flare hits the crimping collet. I only get this sizing effect when a bullet is seated.

Seating a bullet expands the brass a little. As long as the neck tension is good after going through the FCD and not allowing bullet setback, it’s good to go.

 

[stormshrike]

Based on various posts on this forum and others in regards to handgun FCDs, it could be that you have one where the carbide ring is sized smaller than "normal". I think someone mentioned that possibility above. Seems like some of the issues with the FCD come down to variations in the carbide sizing ring between different FCDs.

With my 9mm FCD, I had no issues with jacketed, but coated lead got resized (swaged) going in. Eventually, I moved the crimper insert to a same-caliber Lee expander die (I use NOE expanders so no loss) to just use the crimping function and avoid any issues with the carbide ring. (I did knock the ring out of my 45acp FCD, but that was a hassle and messy as I did not remove it, um, cleanly.) I check each completed round in a gauge after crimping, so if there was a bulge I should catch it then. (Very rarely find any issues.)

Some have no problems at all with their FCDs, even with lead, so obviously milege can vary.

 

[Harriw]

Seating a bullet expands the brass a little. As long as the neck tension is good after going through the FCD and not allowing bullet setback, it’s good to go.

I can check for setback easily enough... I'm more worried about potentially swaging the bullet so that it won't properly engage the rifling and winds up fouling the barrel (and producing lousy accuracy), as Hartkopf mentioned above.

I'll tinker with it some more tonight and see if different headstamps make a difference. I'll also double check my other die settings.

 

[Jim Watson]

Seems like some of the issues with the FCD come down to variations in the carbide sizing ring between different FCDs.

No doubt. I have two .45 CFC dies that feel entirely different going over a round.
In fact Lee said that was where the CFC die came from in the first place, that they had "a closet full" of carbide inserts larger than specified for sizing dies, so they dreamed up a new product to use them.

 

[Harriw]

Based on various posts on this forum and others in regards to handgun FCDs, it could be that you have one where the carbide ring is sized smaller than "normal". I think someone mentioned that possibility above. Seems like some of the issues with the FCD come down to variations in the carbide sizing ring between different FCDs.

With my 9mm FCD, I had no issues with jacketed, but coated lead got resized (swaged) going in. Eventually, I moved the crimper insert to a same-caliber Lee expander die (I use NOE expanders so no loss) to just use the crimping function and avoid any issues with the carbide ring. (I did knock the ring out of my 45acp FCD, but that was a hassle and messy as I did not remove it, um, cleanly.) I check each completed round in a gauge after crimping, so if there was a bulge I should catch it then. (Very rarely find any issues.)

Some have no problems at all with their FCDs, even with lead, so obviously milege can vary.

interesting... ok, ill do some plunk testing before/after running through the FCD too. Might pick up a cartridge gauge for
45 acp too and see if this particular FCD is a bit too aggressive in the sizing ring.

Thanks!

 

[Hartkopf]

If in doubt, make up a dummy round or two with no powder and pull the bullets and measure the diameter. You will probably not reduce the diameter of an XTP unless you are WAY out of adjustment. Also, it doesn't matter how you take the flare out of the case. If the first ring of the FCD leaves the case square and removes the flare without reducing the diameter, you're done. Go shoot em.

 

[Laphroaig]

interesting... ok, ill do some plunk testing before/after running through the FCD too. Might pick up a cartridge gauge for
45 acp too and see if this particular FCD is a bit too aggressive in the sizing ring.

That's an interesting sequence of events. Most use one to fix chronic non-plunkers. If I only loaded jacketed bullets I never would have needed one.

If in doubt, make up a dummy round or two with no powder and pull the bullets and measure the diameter.

The only way to prove the effect on the bullet other than some Ransom rest shooting. For my shooting abilities it didn't matter.

 

[mdi]

Exactly why I don't use FCDs. Post seating/crimping sizing. The one I tried resized my handloads in the final step and ruined my cast bullets. Cast bullets are normally a bit larger diameter and if one swells the cas a bit the FCD swages it smaller, to what the carbide ring's diameter. I have been reloading for quite a while and never needed to resize any of my handloads to make the fit. I have heard some say the die does not touch the case, and I think; "Why use it?". There are much better crimping/deflaring tools, simpler to set up and use...

 

[Tacoma]

Sounds normal to me. It's just the die contacting the case after the bullet stretch's the case diameter on seating. ( Assuming it's not catching on an overly flared case mouth too. Worth checking. If it is, you can dial that out on the seating die.) . FWIW, I reload all my handgun calibers with the lee set and FCD ( on a LCT). Some cases interact the FCD more than others depending on components chosen for that run. For me, all I really want out of the FCD is a good crimp and for it to act as a G0/NOGO gauge.