Another opinion on the T/C Arms Encore Gun Failure

[danez71]

I'm wondering if the basic design is severely flawed and the materials and workmanship substandard, why there are not more examples of these guns failing? Or are they occurring and not being publicized?

I, along with someone else, posted a couple links to Web pages that have some collaborating information.

The OPs experience seems to be fairly rare in terms of reported incidents but certainly not unheard of.

There is not any character assassination occurring on this thread.

Several other people have said similar things.

I suppose it's just as easy to pretend it didn't happen or explain away.

 

[silicosys4]

Dane, are you going to post something that would actually help find the cause of this incident, or are you going to simply argue (with no contributing facts) with people who are actually contributing with technical knowledge again?:banghead:

I'm with barnbwt on this one. I don't care who's feelings are hurt, the OP started this fiasco, and it's a serious matter.

I don't have the knowledge that others do on the mechanics and engineering involved, and I appreciate the input from those who do.

 

[JRH6856]

So from reading all three threads on this board it seems to me the following may have happened:

The T/C Encore has a documented history of unlocking upon firing, but usually without further incident. ie, no damage or injury.

The T/C Encore plastic stock wil crack if the stock bolt is over torqued when attaching the stock

The load fired in this incident as recalled by the shooter is 300 Win MAg, 180g Nosler Accubond, 83g H1000. Per QuickLoad, that is 114% of normal case capacity and 4000 psi over SAMMI max pressure.

The fired case is unexplainably missing.

If the gun had excessive headspace and the reloaded case had been previously fireformed and neck sized before reloading, the case might have been expanded enough to accomodate the stated charge without excess pressure. In fact, it could be as much as 15000psi under max. But the case could have been stretched to the point that it could not contain even a reduced pressure charge.

If the case had been full length sized before reloading, then the 4000psi over max pressure may have been contributory, especially if the action had been stretched further since fireforming resulting in even more headspace.

Either way, anything causing the action to unlock, (or even an excessive pressure which could cause heavy recoil even without unlocking), could cause a cracked shoulder stock to break completely allowing recoil to drive the scope into the shooters eye causing the injury.

Without the case to inform of possible pressure conditions, I can see how a jury might reach a 60/40 split of responsibility.

Break action rifles and shotguns are inherently weak. It is not a design flaw, just a design not really suited for high pressure ammuntion. Perhaps the error here is T/C chambering the rifle for ammunition it is not suited to firing safely.

The obvious flaw in the T/C Encore was the stock attachement, and the stock design has subsequently been changed.

The Encore, like the Contender before it, may be best suited for what are nominally handgun calibers (35-40k psi). I'm not sure I would risk shooting anything more than a 30-30 (49K psi or similar) in this gun.

 

[barnbwt]

"Break action rifles and shotguns are inherently weak. It is not a design flaw, just a design not really suited for high pressure ammuntion. Perhaps the error here is T/C chambering the rifle for ammunition it is not suited to firing safely."

A very reasonable explanation; if you look at all the joints and load paths in a break action, it's not unexpected they are at least as 'squishy' as a rear-locking-lug bolt action. As such, yes, a high pressure cartridge would seem a less than wise decision (and hot-rodding it more so) mainly because you'd have stuck cases like no one's business long before breech failure.

TCB

 

[Snyper]

The load fired in this incident as recalled by the shooter is 300 Win MAg, 180g Nosler Accubond, 83g H1000. Per QuickLoad, that is 114% of normal case capacity and 4000 psi over SAMMI max pressure.

He said the load was 85 grains, and he had previously fired "100 rounds" with no problems.

 

[Robert]

Wait, you mean to say over pressure rounds can destroy a firearm?

 

[DHJenkins]

The phrase "the weird stock was just stupid" struck me as very un-expert like so I did a quick google of the words "jack belk firearms". The word "shill" appeared more than once, as well as allegations that he kept quite a few customer firearms when he closed his shop and that he makes most of his money from lawsuits against firearms manufacturers. He also doesn't appear to have an engineering degree, which I would have thought would be a very basic requirement for an "expert" in design engineering.

If half of what I read is true, this is not a guy I'd want anywhere near my (legitimate) case.

 

[243winxb]

Action type

Break action rifles and shotguns are inherently weak. It is not a design flaw, just a design not really suited for high pressure ammuntion.

The SAVAGE 24V 223 / 20 GA O/U has opened on me, when firing 223 rem ammo.

 

[JRH6856]

He said the load was 85 grains, and he had previously fired "100 rounds" with no problems.

Oh well, that's what I get for trying to read without my glasses.

85g of H1000 is 117% of normal case capacity and 11,100 psi over max pressure. No problems there for sure. :banghead:

 

[Davek1977]

I think there's enough unkowns here to legitimately question the OP without it being character assassination, especially considering what load was supposedly used. That tidbit, along with Belk's reputation as a charlatan without so much as a degree leaves unanswered questions in abundance.

 

[Brian Ward]

There is not any character assassination occurring on this thread. The O.P. has started a second discussion about a accident that he claims left him blind in one eye due to a product failure.

Some of us found his description of the events in his original thread to be evasive and self-serving. We also find missing fired cartridge which is a crucial piece of evidence in determining if the cartridge was overcharged to be suspicious.

Take a look at the photograph the O.P. posted in Post #56 in his original discussion thread. I am left with the impression the O.P. took the picture at the time of the accident.

So a person that had just suffered a severe blow to his face and was blinded in one eye had the calmness and presence of mind to take a photograph of the damaged gun laying on the ground when it landed instead of immediately seeking medical attention.

Or did he stage the photograph sometime after the accident?

I don't have a dog in this fight as I don't own a TC Encore. However I very interested when I read about firearms failure due to a design problem.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=210668&d=1432308906

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=780669&page=3&highlight=encore

The pictures were taken by my hunting partner not me.

I was on the ground bleeding, and I was air lifted out by a helicopter within an hour or so.

Pic of me waiting for the medevac.

 

[Brian Ward]

He said the load was 85 grains, and he had previously fired "100 rounds" with no problems.

I did not say that.

I mainly shot factory rounds out of the gun.

 

[Brian Ward]

Oh well, that's what I get for trying to read without my glasses.

85g of H1000 is 117% of normal case capacity and 11,100 psi over max pressure. No problems there for sure. :banghead:

I’m not recommending anyone exceed limits with their loads. The 26th edition Hodgdon Data Manual states 83. I very judiciously worked up to 85. A lot of other factors can be weighted. That is why I stated my procedure in other threads. I’m not hiding this at all, I very openly and willing gave this to T/C Arms, the jury, and this forum.

I worked up from 10% below max and worked up the final load in half grain increments looking for accuracy (also potency) since I was hunting for moose in Alaska with Griz running around. There were no pressure signs in the cases compared to the 83 gr load (no blown primers, splits, cracks etc.). I even had two other experienced reloaders look at the cases. Also, since this was a single shot, I was not seating the bullet as deep, allowing for more case capacity…but I was not engaging the lands. (also no crimping)

H-1000 is one of the slowest burning powders around; which makes a 2 grain increase not much of a pressure rise.

Hand loaders can archive more constant accuracy, and pressures over factory loads. Factory loads on a hot day in the SW US or Africa can have pressure spikes well above my loads.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Beaten to death.