Embrace The Truth - Catastrophic Gun Failure

[OilyPablo]

Excessive head space doesn't always lead to an exploding gun...what caliber? Ammo? If you want to help, gun guys need details.

I mean it sucks that you were hurt. Man that is terrible. But why the drama?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I've never heard of a gun having catastrophic failure because of excessive head space. That usually causes failures to fire or extraction issues. Short head space can cause a kaboom due to out of battery discharges... but this is a break action rifle right?

I feel that there is more to this story.

 

[alsaqr]

What did the jury determined were your actions that contributed to the accident?

On another forum Brian Ward has admitted that the round that blew the gun up was a handload.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563014

 

[Robert]

An over charge would do it.

 

[OilyPablo]

So he didn't mention home loaded ammo..................come on man. Lucky you got anything.

 

[Brian Ward]

So you have decided to spend large amounts of time to defame T/C?

What did you do that the court found you 40% responsible for accident?

Defame no way!

Telling the truth about this product is my new 2nd job.

“40%” When an entity essentially has unlimited money to bring doubt, defame, etc.. it’s an uphill battle.

 

[HOOfan_1]

What do you want to know detail wise?

I psoted:

To summarize and very very briefly in my opinion the big take away from my case was the TCA Encore can not keep tolerances and head space grows overtime, especially with larger calibers like I was shooting (300 win mag).
In my trial we had 3 guns with excessive head space.
My gun was out of spec.
A gun with 5 shots was out of spec.
A gun with no shots was out of spec.

Are you saying that a gun with proper head space from the factory may eventually have excessive headspace due to shooting it? The fact that you said the gun with no shots was out of spec doesn't really help support that.

Or are you saying that T/C is not keeping proper headspace at the factory?

Three guns isn't exactly much of a test group, especially if they were cherry picked.

If you are trying to warn people that the Encores are a defective design, more details are required. If you are saying they may have bad headspace from the factory, people can just go out and their guns checked.

If you are saying that shooting them will increase the headspace, then maybe it is a defective design.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

A hand load?... Yes, indeed you are lucky to have gotten anything at all whatsoever. And its even more understandable now that what you went through was such an uphill battle. As a hand loader you take a risk. If a gun blows up with a hand load in the chamber, you really cant point fingers. (no pun intended)

 

[Brian Ward]

Hi Brian-

Without going through the whole detailed document, can you say if you were wearing eye protection during the incident? Not placing blame, just curious.

No eye protection, I was hunting.

With the 300 win mag it probably would not have made a difference.

 

[HOOfan_1]

“40%” When an entity essentially has unlimited money to bring doubt, defame, etc.. it’s an uphill battle.

Companies that have unlimited money usually settle out of court with closed settlements. If they think they are liable in any way, it is usually cheaper to settle, and usually less bad press to settle.

Either way, T/C's legal defense means are irrelevant to the proclaimed defectiveness of the Encore.

 

[Brian Ward]

On another forum Brian Ward has admitted that the round that blew the gun up was a handload.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563014

“Admitted?” Haha! Yes I was using hand loads

 

[Ed Ames]

So the jury awarded $36,870 for economic damages and an additional $200,000 in non-economic damages, plus $10,000 per year from 2013 to 2050. It looks like there is a final $20k (it is hard to make out due to a mark over the amount) in 2051. Jury also found that Ward was 40% at fault.


The judge then reduced that to a single lump sum which, at 5% interest, would equal the amount of the one time and annual payments, and then reduced that by 40% so Ward wasn't being paid for his own 40% share of the fault.

Add attorney fees and the total damages appear to be $650,584.59. Again, it is hard to read due to ink spots or marks on the page.

So here's my question for Brian Ward: What do I, or any other shooter, get from this except higher gun prices? Why should we be happy about this? Why should we root for you, against our own financial interests? Because if he can't answer that, it seems very strange that he would come to gun forums advertising that he is responsible for a slight raise in prices. Even claiming 40% responsibility seems unlikely to win friends.

 

[Brian Ward]

Are you saying that a gun with proper head space from the factory may eventually have excessive headspace due to shooting it? The fact that you said the gun with no shots was out of spec doesn't really help support that.

Or are you saying that T/C is not keeping proper headspace at the factory?

Three guns isn't exactly much of a test group, especially if they were cherry picked.

If you are trying to warn people that the Encores are a defective design, more details are required. If you are saying they may have bad headspace from the factory, people can just go out and their guns checked.

If you are saying that shooting them will increase the headspace, then maybe it is a defective design.

I think every T/C arms Encore owner should get their guns head space checked ASAP!

Not cherry picked…. we only bought two new guns for the case.

 

[Sam1911]

Did the findings of the court include the statement that excessive headspace could cause a gun to rupture, given known in-spec ammo?

What was the exact mechanism of failure that you were able to show caused the damage?

 

[Brian Ward]

So the jury awarded $36,870 for economic damages and an additional $200,000 in non-economic damages, plus $10,000 per year from 2013 to 2050. It looks like there is a final $20k (it is hard to make out due to a mark over the amount) in 2051. Jury also found that Ward was 40% at fault.


The judge then reduced that to a single lump sum which, at 5% interest, would equal the amount of the one time and annual payments, and then reduced that by 40% so Ward wasn't being paid for his own 40% share of the fault.

Add attorney fees and the total damages appear to be $650,584.59. Again, it is hard to read due to ink spots or marks on the page.

So here's my question for Brian Ward: What do I, or any other shooter, get from this except higher gun prices? Why should we be happy about this? Why should we root for you, against our own financial interests? Because if he can't answer that, it seems very strange that he would come to gun forums advertising that he is responsible for a slight raise in prices. Even claiming 40% responsibility seems unlikely to win friends.

I’m just trying to warn people about an unsafe gun. Take it or leave it.

I don’t believe I’m at fault at all for this guns failure. Like I said before- “40%” When an entity essentially has unlimited money to bring doubt, defame, etc.. it’s an uphill battle.

 

[Brian Ward]

Did the findings of the court include the statement that excessive headspace could cause a gun to rupture, given known in-spec ammo?

What was the exact mechanism of failure that you were able to show caused the damage?

yes and yes

 

[Sam1911]

“Admitted?” Haha! Yes I was using hand loads

Well, sure. You do have to understand that while every single one of us knows that our handloaded ammo is better in every way than anything you can buy from the factory, every single one of us also knows that you NEVER shoot anyone else's reloads (!!!) and "overcharge" or "bad reload" is the first thought on every shooter's mind when he hears of a blown up gun.

MY blown up gun was not the fault of MY bad reloads, but HIS blown up gun was almost certainly the fault of some mistake HE made with HIS. Of course. Sort of how every driver knows he's a better driver than 80% of the other people on the road and 90% of students graduated in the top half of their class.

So when there's a notice of a blown up gun the first thought through anyone's mind is "overcharge" and the second is "barrel obstruction." And that's why so many people are pretty shocked you got anything in the judgment.

 

[Sam1911]

What was the exact mechanism of failure that you were able to show caused the damage?

yes and yes

Yes what?

They actually said that excessive headspace caused the receiver to rupture?

 

[Ed Ames]

Wait... 300 win mag is belted, so it headspaces on the belt. How were you measuring headspace to determine it was wrong?

 

[Bullseye]

Well I called S&W - Thompson Center and made them aware of this internet hoopla and they are forwarding a Google search for Brian Ward and TC encore to their legal dept and I pointed out this link I found on Thefiringline ( image below )
It says in every one of my firearm manuals that handloaded ammunition is used at the risk of the shooter in so many words and I think this reminds me too much of the McDonalds coffee in the lap lawsuit. This is not what THR is about and slamming the firearms company for something the OP is 100% responsible the second he holds the firearm in his hands is what is wrong with things today. Next thing you know there will be another warning stamped into the frame of firearms. Just another anti-gun log on the fire too.
I was a cigarette smoker and it has affected my health, who's fault is that? I am not going to sue Marlboro because I chose to smoke knowing there was a risk. I am responsible.

 

[JSH1]

Defame no way!

Telling the truth about this product is my new 2nd job.

“40%” When an entity essentially has unlimited money to bring doubt, defame, etc.. it’s an uphill battle.

Telling the truth means telling the whole truth. That is, if the goal is to educate not defame. The fact that you are not willing to tell us what the jury found you responsible for causes me to questions your stated goal.

(No, I'm not willing to read 1000 pages to find out what you could tell us in a single paragraph.)

 

[Brian Ward]

"The fact that you are not willing to tell us what the jury found you responsible for causes me to questions your stated goal"

JSH1,
What is your specific question? I will answer it to the best of my ability. I’m talking to tons of different people right now.

 

[Sam1911]

A very great many belted cartridge rifles have been made with headspace (at the shoulder) that far exceeds spec. Enfields are known for this being practically universal. Many reloaders neck size only after first firing to keep down the amount of case stretching each time.

I probably would not have expected a modern commercial production rifle to exhibit that tendency to any great degree, but it certainly could happen and most likely without negative consequences.





...

We often lament that jurors are rarely knowledgeable about shooting, guns, or self-defense issues so make bad judgments based on ignorance of the subject. Seems sometimes that might work in the shooter's favor, too.

 

[HoosierQ]

So handloads blew up a gun?

 

[HOOfan_1]

It says in every one of my firearm manuals that handloaded ammunition is used at the risk of the shooter.

Only relevant if the handloads were actually the problem. We may never know in this case.