Embrace The Truth - Catastrophic Gun Failure

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I still cannot fathom how the breach opening (from the gas escaping through excessive headspace) would cause the stock to break. The stock would break through normal recoil. Escaping gas does not cause excess recoil.

I guess the bottom line is that he is lucky I was not on the jury. He convinced 12 people in Michigan but I'm not sure he convinced the internet.
 
If it's dismissed out of hand... it's of no value.

If someone takes a little bit of time out of their lives and looks into it.... potentially you could save your eyesight or life.

I see enough potential value that IF I had one I would look into the issue deeper.

I'm not so jaded or big headed to just ignore the post because what he wrote wasnt written in my preferred style. Or worse, question the OPS integrity particularly when he has nothing to gain.
Thank you for getting it!
 
Brian,

Thanks for the answers. I know how hard it is to remember details that you have to pull from that far back.

One other question, what hit your eye to cause the damage?

Deroit
 
Brian Ward,

I am going to say that I believe you at face value. You have not given any reason to disbelief your statement. It seems to me that your message is this, TC encore rifles and possible pistols have a blatant defect that Thompson Center knows about and is trying to cover up and you are simply trying to keep people from getting hurt.

I don't understand why people disbelieve you when they haven't met you or know you. Unless you are a former employee that is trying to hurt TC you have no reason to defame them and open yourself up to possible lawsuit.
 
I still cannot fathom how the breach opening (from the gas escaping through excessive headspace) would cause the stock to break.

Stocks are designed to take recoil from one direction. When the action opened the forces were coming from a different direction. Take any stock and slam it butt first into a tree and you'll likely break the tree before the stock. Grab the rifle by the muzzle and swing the stock into the tree like a baseball bat and most will break pretty easily.

In my view, if you elect to fire any reloads or hand-loaded ammunition you must take some responsibility or accountability if the firearm breaks

This is very likely the reason the jury decided he was 40% responsible for the incident and TC 60% responsible. This is a common practice in juries to reach a compromise in difficult cases.

There was obviously far more evidence than can possibly be presented here. But if he was able to convince a jury that TC was even 60% responsible while he was using handloads there had to be some very compelling evidence.
 
a quick google search of Brian Ward vs Thompson Center reveals this,
http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com...03389-155776-156021&SessionID=ufFeFv6dLSsajz7

Brian Ward v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, Inc., et. al. , in the Forty-Sixth Circuit Court for Otsego County, Michigan. The complaint was filed on October 16, 2006, and alleges that plaintiff sustained eye injuries using a Thompson/Center Arms rifle. Plaintiff asserts product liability claims against both Thompson/Center Arms and the retailer based on negligence and warranty principles. The plaintiff is seeking an unspecified amount of compensatory damages. On November 15, 2006, Thompson/Center Arms filed an answer denying all allegations of liability. Discovery is ongoing. Trial is not yet scheduled.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Smith_&_Wesson_Holding_(SWHC)/Pending_Cases
 
Thank you for getting it!

No problem. It's not rocket science though....to me anyways.

There was obviously far more evidence than can possibly be presented here. But if he was able to convince a jury that TC was even 60% responsible while he was using handloads there had to be some very compelling evidence.


Hey... looky here..... another guy that gets it.

There's a few of us that do. But I'm amazed at how this forum has reacted. I mainly post here because it tends to be more open minded and cerebral discussions than other forums. This thread isnt a good example of it though.
 
My notes as I read this today 22 May 2015. After all, T-Cs are awfully popular at the local gun club, and it would be nice to know if there are identified and fixable problems. No one I know seems to be aware of any.

All this raised the question with me:
1. Was this because the Encore is a defective design?
2. Was this because that particular Encore was a defective gun?
3. Will in-spec factory ammo or in-spec handloads cause excess headspace with the Encore?

"So handloads blew up a gun?" All I am getting is an Encore blew up with handloads. The handloads could be like mine, loaded for accuracy at milqueoast pressure levels, or could have been hotrodded tyrannosaurus rex hunter loads. Or the receiver could have had flaws that would only show up on x-ray. So far no answers have shown up to the questions I have.

Post #72 by Brian Ward "...excessive headspace allows gasses to act on the plunger thus allowing the gun to open..."

So the complaint is that excess headspace can allow enough gas leakage to blow the locking plunger forward allowing the action to open?

That the design defect is that correct lockup requires correct spring pressure on the plunger? That the plunger spring may weaken over time and need periodic check and maybe replacement to be safe?

I still am having to guess at this because noone is telling me anything.

The photo shows a stainless finish Encore laying on rock with the buttstock broken off, action closed, hammer down.

http://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/manuals/Encore_RifleShotgun_Manual_03-30-15.pdf

The stock bolt should be torqued to 45 to 55 inch-pounds. If the stock is too loose or compressed, it may crack at the stock grip area and fail.

I do note that the trigger guard is the unlocking lever that pushs the locking plunger out of engagement with the frame, and that pressure on the trigger guard spur could also compromise lockup. But I think my stepdad pointed that out to me when he was looking at a T-C pistol in the 1970s.

At the end of this, I feel I know less than when I started.
 
No eyewear? Outdoors .....

I'm not 100% on all the details about the incident.
Are you(Ward) saying you were hunting(outdoors) loaded the firearm with a hand load then fired the weapon without any eyewear/protective glasses? :confused:
Did you ever fire the exact same hand-load in the same firearm where it didn't misfire or jam?
Do you wear safety glasses on ranges or outdoors? Or only when mandated by a private range or gun club?

I wear corrective lenses so safety eyewear or protection from any shrapnel or gun powder/muzzle flash isn't so bad.
Honestly, even if I had 20/10 super vision, I'd still wear protective or tinted lenses while outdoors just to keep my vision from harm. I'd hunt with game ears or e-muffs too but maybe not all the time.
 
I am hypothesizing...

Looking at the picture in #95, I see no damage to the barrel, receiver, or scope sight as would be caused by a gross overload that would injure the shooter. The plastic stock is broken below the head of the stock bolt.
The action appears to be closed.

Are we to conclude that firing with .005" excess chamber headspace (on top of a SAAMI allowable .015" clearance) caused the action to kick open, break the stock, gouge the shooter's eye, presumably with the broken edge of the stock, and then flop back closed?

Or perhaps the stock broke from sheer Magnum Recoil without the action kicking open. I view with concern the short stock bolt which does not act to reinforce the stock.

That is the only mechanism I can see to cause injury without demolishing the barreled action itself.
 
Interesting thread. Best of luck to Brian how ever it happened. I zoomed in on the pic and the receiver around and behind the hammer looks dark and sooty. Possibly a eye full or gas and particles. If the action unlocked under full recoil I would think the rearward force is up and back putting vertical pressure on the pistol grip. Take a unloaded break action, hold it up to your shoulder unlocked and pull back on the forend and it pivots up. I could see the stock breaking if severe enough. The 300 Win Mag only operates 62-64,000 PSI. That may be a bit much to hang onto if the gun snaps open redirecting the recoil. For what it's worth if I owned one I would check it out for peace of mind. JMHO.
 
I'm just throwing this out there, but in a case worth nearly a million bucks overall, I'm pretty sure I would fully understand the reasons I was given 40% fault. If something cost me 7 years worth of salary, it's certainly worth remembering 2 years later.

As for the failure, it seems highly unlikely that this failure mode be accurate, but assuming that it is, TC just took a half million dollar lick right on the nose, and seeing the large quantity of guns produced they would certainly be issuing a recall because now that a court has found them responsible for an injury they are no longer simply negligent, but willfully negligent which is a whole new ballgame which the OP tried to pursue but that Avenue was shut down for one reason or another. They would be exposed to several million or even billion dollars in risk. I find it impossible to believe that this is the case. Something is still missing. We still do not have the full picture of what is going on here.
 
improperlyaged said:
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Smith.../Pending_Cases

Plaintiff asserts product liability claims against both Thompson/Center Arms and the retailer based on negligence and warranty principles.

Out of curiosity, who is the retailer referenced here?
 
danez71 said:
You haven't provided a thing to show how his explanation might not be valid. At least he's pointed to the docs.

Okay, how about this then... Physics doesn't work the way the OP is claiming. If the action came unlocked, there's no magical mystery force that would cause the gun to torque with such force it would break the stock. No way, no how. Sorry, not happening. Even with the action unlocked, the gun is going to recoil straight to the rear. The bullet will be long out of the barrel and all recoil forces imparted to the gun and the gun set in motion long before the barrel has time to swing down any appreciable amount. Even if the barrel rotates a full 90 degrees off axis during the recoil stroke, it is still going to travel directly to the rear. It's velocity vector does not change because it's orientation in space changes.

Now, you want a rational, actually possible explanation for damage that looks like that, and an eye injury to the shooter? How about the shooter didn't have the rifle securely seated on his shoulder when he touched off a .300 Win Mag round. Under recoil, the stock slipped low unseating itself from his shoulder. The shooter got scoped real hard and in pain dropped the rifle on the rocks we see in the picture, thus causing the damage we see.

Now, isn't that a much more likely scenario than blow by gas caused the action to open, physics to take a day off and the stock to explode?

Second off, I don't buy for one second the claim that he doesn't remember the important details of a trial that he thought was so important he's spreading the word of all over the internet. "I just won 1/2 million dollars but don't know the details of why" sounds awfully fishy to me. If I was involved in a multi-year trial because someones product broke and hurt me, I think I would have a pretty good grasp on what my claim was against that company. Also, I'm thinking that if he really doesn't know the details, he should probably stop spreading the word... no knowing what went wrong in the first place and all.
 
Good post by Carl Brown.

I'm still wondering if the action actually opened.

Second, I wonder if T/C will be changing the materials on their stock.
 
Any chance a case-head failure would direct pressurized gas into the hollow wrist of the polymer stock? Wouldn't take much to pop it, I bet.

Here's another possibility (again, going back to what I said about secondary and tertiary effects of a failure not necessarily being the responsibility of design engineers looking to address primary failure mechanisms)
-Headspace is short ("manufacturing," not a "design" flaw), but OP manages to cram a properly spec'ed cartridge in their without the camming action of a turn-bolt (would be very hard to close a break action with short headspace, btw)
-When fired, pressures skyrocket and the already razor's edge cartridge pressure shoots up above 100,000PSI and the case flows/ruptures at the breech
-Massive recoil experienced as a result once the bullet gets moving (kabooms are often associated with high recoil, even those not caused by overcharge)
-Massive recoil exceeds the safety factor limits of the stock design (this is where your alleged "design flaw" might come into play)
-Sport-style stock puts the bore's line of action above the stock, so upon its breaking, the action lurches upward and back (the stock pitching up could cause injury as well as the rear of the action & stock edges)
-As the action pitches upward, the shooter's finger on the trigger contacts and disengages the breech lever, ultimately unlocking the action at some point during recoil (extremely likely this is after pressures have fallen and the case failure occurred at the moment of ignition earlier on) OR the design of the T/C lever allows the recoil energy itself to knock the lever out of engagement (again, towards the end of or after the high pressure period, just like a recoil operated handgun)

The end result is that, from the shooter's perspective, they fired the gun and it sprayed them with case shrapnel, broke the gun in half, and the action was open or partially unlatched when they next looked at it. I can see how you would think the gun blew open, but it's entirely possible that the highest energy action (tens or hundreds of thousand PSI) was over before anything impacted your body.

Blaming it on headspace is, I think, possibly misdirected. Perhaps not intentionally, but simply because headspace is a very relative thing; it pertains to a chamber/breech relative to the ammunition, and there are a half dozen or so mitigating variables between them. We shooters actually do need to know or account for all of them before laying the blame on T/C (even 60% of it), otherwise causes like defective ammunition or SAAMI specs won't get the attention they deserve. Normally, I would highly suspect any claim five thousandths of an inch would catastrophically rupture a cartridge, but this one is at the higher end of the pressure scale, and is right on the edge of its brass liquefying with every shot as it is. I don't suppose this case had been fired one or more times previously, or full-length sized in the interim? If headspace was truly out as much as claimed, the brass should have been exhibiting stretch rings, loose/blown primers, stuck cases, and very difficult brass sizing; were these experienced?

I know it's good to get the closure of finding blame with a particular party, but the fact is the T/C design has been around long enough to be as proven as any action out there, so the idea that a massive safety flaw is inherent to the design is extremely disturbing. We need to know enough details to determine exactly why this happened, so we can avoid it in the future on other designs drawing from T/C's art.

I would also not take T/C's subsequent redesign of the stock as 'admission' that their design was flawed. Through some unfortunate circumstance exceeding the design stress criteria, the stock broke at that location and a serious injury resulted. T/C engineers/designers determined that the product could be reinforced there to ensure that another overstress situation beyond the scope of the design parameters would not fail similarly. It's called controlling the secondary failure mode, and it is not necessarily related to improper consideration for the primary failure mode (esp. if the primary is way beyond sane operational limits, like a double charge scenario; the designers can merely attempt to limit the repercussions of failure at that point)

"The shooter got scoped real hard and in pain dropped the rifle on the rocks we see in the picture, thus causing the damage we see."
I'd say the odds of a simple drop breaking a polymer (?) stock in half at the wrist are lower than it resulting from a molding flaw or double charge and the considerable recoil of a cartridge this powerful from a gun this light.

"I don't buy for one second the claim that he doesn't remember the important details of a trial that he thought was so important he's spreading the word of all over the internet"
Indeed.
"I'm thinking that if he really doesn't know the details, he should probably stop spreading the word... no knowing what went wrong in the first place and all"
Indubitably. Get his lawyers or experts to draft up a page-long summary of what went down if it is too technical (I'm really not buying the "it can only be explained by thousands of pages of discovery notes" explanation, either :rolleyes:)

"The photo shows a stainless finish Encore laying on rock with the buttstock broken off, action closed, hammer down."
The lack of blood attendant to a serious eye/face injury on the ground/gun and neat photo composition suggests the photo was taken some time after the initial incident, possibly after its use of evidence at trial (I would have been careful to not wipe my blood off an object I was seeking product liability damages for, so I'm guessing after ;)). Once again, not enough info from the OP to reach any conclusion other than his assertions (funny that).

I move for a mistrial on the grounds that the prosecution has been withholding evidence from the forum (bad joke, sorry)

-----------------------

The reason I'm so interested in this is because I am currently designing and building original firearms actions as a hobby. Crap like this scares the bejeezus out of me. For Pete's sake, I hope to one day soon build a shoulder-fired anti-material rifle from a KPV action in 14.5x114mm (with proper tax stamps and complying with applicable laws, of course), and a failure like this one would straight-up kill the shooter --ME! You can't afford to be close with this stuff, and a 300WM is really not too far away on the lethal-to-shooter-upon-failure scale.

I've read of failures like this on wood-stocked big game rifles; the expensive ones with really curly burl wood are particularly bad about shattering in the worst possible place & injuring the shooter. That's why the 50 Alaskan bolt gun I'm doing has a stock with laminate construction and steel reinforcement running the length between layers; the stock bolts will sheer before anything lets go (and since the Steyr M95 is one of the action types that, as the OP alleges of the T/C, unlocks itself under the direct impingement of a ruptured case's gasses, I opted to use a lower pressure cartridge like Alaskan that clocks in at most 40,000PSI)

TCB
 
"You know funny thing…… out of complete coincidence they changed the stock after my accident."

In aviation, the FAA design regs are basically a list of design changes incorporated as a result of past crashes that the designers were frequently never found to be liable for. Engineers are humans; they cannot predict every freak accident or permutation of factors, or guarantee what happens once the design conditions are exceeded. We can only observe and approximate reality, we cannot "know" it like the Almighty. But in the aftermath of a failure, we can see that "it failed here, but it wouldn't have ended as badly if it had failed there" and decide to beef up the first location or weaken the second location accordingly.

Never mind the fact that the stress levels responsible should have never been approached in the first place and were expressly warned against. T/C decided --probably as the result of your case-- that they really didn't want a stock to fail that way again, for any reason, because of the potential for secondary injury. So they beefed up that area a bit.

Or they just found a cheaper way to make the things, or chose a different vendor/design to absolve themselves of even any perceived future product liability of the type you allege. Whatever.

TCB
 
Okay, how about this then... Physics doesn't work the way the OP is claiming. If the action came unlocked, there's no magical mystery force that would cause the gun to torque with such force it would break the stock. No way, no how. Sorry, not happening. Even with the action unlocked, the gun is going to recoil straight to the rear. The bullet will be long out of the barrel and all recoil forces imparted to the gun and the gun set in motion long before the barrel has time to swing down any appreciable amount. Even if the barrel rotates a full 90 degrees off axis during the recoil stroke, it is still going to travel directly to the rear. It's velocity vector does not change because it's orientation in space changes.

Now, you want a rational, actually possible explanation for damage that looks like that, and an eye injury to the shooter? How about the shooter didn't have the rifle securely seated on his shoulder when he touched off a .300 Win Mag round. Under recoil, the stock slipped low unseating itself from his shoulder. The shooter got scoped real hard and in pain dropped the rifle on the rocks we see in the picture, thus causing the damage we see.

Now, isn't that a much more likely scenario than blow by gas caused the action to open, physics to take a day off and the stock to explode?

Second off, I don't buy for one second the claim that he doesn't remember the important details of a trial that he thought was so important he's spreading the word of all over the internet. "I just won 1/2 million dollars but don't know the details of why" sounds awfully fishy to me. If I was involved in a multi-year trial because someones product broke and hurt me, I think I would have a pretty good grasp on what my claim was against that company. Also, I'm thinking that if he really doesn't know the details, he should probably stop spreading the word... no knowing what went wrong in the first place and all.

Paragraph 1: 1st off, the OP didnt make any claims about physics. 2nd, Several people have already posted that a stock will break that way. Sorry.

Paragraph 2 and 3: Certainly plausable. I feel pretty confident that after 10 yrs of litigation that scenario was argued and apparently couldn't convince anyone that mattered.

Paragraph 4: OK you have an awesome memory. Good for you.

Actually he didn't mention how much money and proactively tried to keep that off topic. Someone else posted the info.

So now it looks like you're just making things up out of thin air to save face and make the OP look bad. Classy. Real classy.

Or maybe thats not your intention and just aren't paying attention enough while playing Internet dectective/lawyer/judge/jury/firearm expert/failure analysis expert// / / /
 
I don't understand why people disbelieve you when they haven't met you or know you. Unless you are a former employee that is trying to hurt TC you have no reason to defame them and open yourself up to possible lawsuit.

I don't understand that either, but I also don't understand why people DO believe him.

It's honestly irrelevant, if you have one these rifles...... Check it.
He's either lying or not, but what does that matter?
What matters is if your rifle has a problem. He has described the supposed problem, so check your rifle.

I just at don't see why this so complicated.
I don't know Brian, so I don't believe him, I also don't disbelieve him.
If I had one of these rifles I'd check it, if it checked bad I'd advise other people with said gun to also check it and if it was good I'd probably forget about it about 3 months.



Brian, assuming you are telling the truth, all the goings on and questioning are making the topic easier to find with a Google search and more people will be aware of the problem which, although belittling and annoying to you, it's what you wanted to do....... Bring awareness.
So keep it up.

If your not being completely honest, the I cannot say in a HighRoad manner what I think, but I bet you can guess.

And again, people who have one of these rifles go check it. If Brian is right or wrong doesn't matter. If your gun blows up in face, that is what matters.
 
"It's honestly irrelevant, if you have one these rifles...... Check it."
Aren't most all T/C shooters hand loaders, and therefore checking their headspace whether they like to or not? ;)

"all the goings on and questioning are making the topic easier to find with a Google search"
I myself had wondered the same thing about the very 'phased' introduction of the background and details. The first post by itself is nearly devoid of anything beyond the aforementioned "DANGER WILL ROBINSON!" public service announcement with a sanctimonious thread title. That's kind of what the five-seven guy did; just posting pictures of his lacerated hand and exploded handgun, suggesting an out of battery detonation then letting the speculation run wild before admitting (yes, 'admitting' since it wasn't mentioned without prodding) to using factory reloads or handloads or some such.

TCB
 
If it's dismissed out of hand... it's of no value.

Nobody dimissed it out of hand, but you are still right.

If someone takes a little bit of time out of their lives and looks into it.... potentially you could save your eyesight or life.

And here you are wrong. You see, when Ward poste his first post, I did research it. I looked for Brian Ward v. Thompson Center, etc., and the only reference I found was in S&W 10-k reports to the SEC warning that it was a pending legal issue.

There was no way, with the info provided, for someone to "look deeper". Even now, when asked detailed questions the OP is sending us to his lawyer and other non-internet sources that are unlikely to actually give that information. I suppose I could call the attorney (I have his number) and ask to see the depositions and the like, but it flat shouldn't be necessary. Someone alledging a design defect should be able to write a description of the problem.

I see enough potential value that IF I had one I would look into the issue deeper.
IIRC I have one in the back of a safe somewhere, so I tried. There wasn't any deeper to look and getting answers from Ward was like pulling toes.


I'm not so jaded or big headed to just ignore the post because what he wrote wasnt written in my preferred style. Or worse, question the OPS integrity particularly when he has nothing to gain.

That's nice. Relevance? The issue here has nothing to do with style and the integrity questions were all self inflicted. It has to do with someone saying the equivalent of, "OMG if you drive a toyota your car has a design defect and you should stop! I just spent 10 years suing them and I just won my case so I can finally tell you about the Toyota defect. You should really stop driving Toyota cars if you care about your safety because of the defect, " and then playing ignorant (" oh if you want to know more you need to go to a court in michigan and pay them $2 a page to copy out a thousand pages of public record, and read it yourself, because I don't really know what happened or why I was found partially at fault... oh if you must know I had mixed up my own fuel and wasn't wearing a seat belt... but it is a design defect and I'm just trying to help keep everyone safe by telling you about it.") when asked for basic details. He did finally give a defect theory, and as I said at the time I would need an encore in front of me to check our the plausibility, but that was something that should have been in the very first post not begrudgingly offered after three pages.
 
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