Another School Shooting - Lancaster County PA

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I am more inclined to say Rendell is not making any genuine concession but just being disingenuous with his comments based on what happened a week ago in Harrisburg. He is playing both sides of the street to gain voter advantage.
I still don't trust him and I am still voting Swan.
 
I don't know if you caught the very next interview where the female newscaster questioned John Ashcroft about the Lancaster situation and her statement was I as a mother have conserns as to how someone can legally buy a 9mm semi-autmatic that is not used for hunting.
Yes I caught that. Disturbing isn't it? Ashcroft's responce was great.
 
Sorry, but I started drifting this thread off topic to a more political level.
I quit with the off topic direction. My bad!
 
Actually I saw on ABC's World News Tonight a close-up of an Amish male. Hopefully with his consent...!

I wonder if this will cause some of the Amish people to re-evaluate their non-belief in using the old hunting rifle to defend themselves, if necessary. They must know about the shootings in other parts of the country. They don't have TV, but they do read newspapers. If they don't feel the need to protect themselves, they might feel the need to protect their kids. It's easier to say you wouldn't use a gun for protection, when you have never needed protecting.

I'm kind of torn here. On one hand I pray that this NEVER happens again, or that if it does, there's someone there to kill the perp before he's able to lay a hand on a child.

But (now I'm no Amish expert), if the Amish do have to make such a major change to their lifestyles...I don't know, it would just be a shame. I don't think I'd care to live the Amish way, but they SHOULD be able to live life the way they WANT to live it.

It's like the "loss of innocence" for an entire society... :(
 
There's something that I find odd about this story: Mr. Roberts ordered a bunch of people out of the schoolhouse before he murdered the girls, including several adults. Apparently none of these adults tried to fight him. Yea, I know they're Amish. But I don't care... those adults should have attacked him. Shame on them for not trying. :fire:
 
Wasn't he well-armed when he ordered the adults out of the schoolhouse? I understand what you're saying, but if you're an Amish adult and there is some guy with guns ordering you out, you would probably leave and call for help. Which is what they did.
 
Wasn't he well-armed when he ordered the adults out of the schoolhouse? I understand what you're saying, but if you're an Amish adult and there is some guy with guns ordering you out, you would probably leave and call for help. Which is what they did.
My wife is 5' 0" and weighs 110 lbs. I just asked her, "Let's say you're pregnant. What if a 6' 2" male, armed with 3 guns, broke into our house while I wasn't here? Furthermore, he orders you out of the house, while telling our 3 young children to stay inside. What would you do?"

She replied, "I would use any and all means to stop him, including biting and kicking. I would do everything possible to stop him. Any other mother would do the same."

I then said, "But what if he's ordering you at gun point?"

She replied, "Let me repeat: I would use any and all means to stop him, including biting and kicking. I would do everything possible to stop him. Any other mother would do the same."
 
Molon Labe,

Even if you don't understand it you've got to accept that the depth of conviction true pacifists like the Amish have is probably greater than ours to use violence to defend ourselves and others.

There's the other question of whether a culture with such deep convictions produces people that recognize this type of threat. Heck, the last nutjob entered a conventional school with conventional folks who have no convictions like the Amish and he was able to do much the same.

Condemning the victim just isn't right.
 
Green Lantern said:
But (now I'm no Amish expert), if the Amish do have to make such a major change to their lifestyles...I don't know, it would just be a shame. I don't think I'd care to live the Amish way, but they SHOULD be able to live life the way they WANT to live it.
It will never happen but I would love to live in a world where a gun would never have to be used against another human being. I would quite enjoy never having to carry, unfortunately we don't live in a world like that, and I don't think it will or could ever be that way.
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They have chosen to live as they do and I respect that. They aren't trying to push their ways on anyone else, unlike others. And we shouldn't be pushing our ways on them. They aren't stupid, they knew the risks prior to this event and if they choose to continue to live as they do all I can say is I pray they never have to deal with such again. I won't condemn, insult, or belittle the way they choose to live their lives. We are a free people and they are free to so as they wish and none of us have any place telling them to live anyway they do not wish to. Just as we don't like being told we should or have to live anyway other than we wish to.

We have no more right to tell them they must defend themselves or that we will force our defense of them on them than an anti has to tell us that we shouldn't be allowed to defend ourselves. Right, wrong, or indifferent it's their freedom, their lives, their children, and their choice.
 
Here are a few thoughts of mine, organized or not.
  • Desensitization of Americans, in particular, children
Did you know that because of the "bull's-eye-target" method of firearms instruction used by the military in Basic Training and the resulting hesitation on behalf of the soldier to shoot the enemy in WWII, video games were developed by the Department of Defense to desensitize the soldier, break down a natural mental barrier, and train soldiers that it is acceptable to shoot a human figure, and minimize the feelings of remorse after the situation?

There were too many soldiers who, in the field of combat, froze and could not pull the trigger on the enemy. After battles in the civil war, in picking up the rifles from the dead, it was found that 90 percent were loaded. This is striking because it took 95 percent of their time to load muskets and only five percent to fire. But even more amazingly, of the thousands of loaded muskets, over half had multiple loads in the barrel. This illustrates the point: Humans have a natural barrier to killing other humans. This is good.

As it was realized, the modern military had to find a way to overcome this. It was found that only 15-20 percent of the riflemen in WWII could bring themselves to fire at an exposed enemy soldier. Men were brave, men were willing to die, they were willing to give themselves as a sacrificial offering for their nation, but they were not willing to kill. When the military became aware of that, they systematically went about the process of trying to fix this "problem." To fix it they used silhouettes instead of bulls-eyes. Then they went on to use pop-up targets of a human outline. As the technology became available, video-simulations of battles were used to train soldiers that it is perfectly acceptable to kill the enemy. By the Korean War around 55 percent of the soldiers were willing to fire to kill. And by Vietnam the rate rose to over 90 percent. The Video Games worked. Something very similar to this desensitization toward violence is happening to our children through violence in the media, but instead of 18-year-olds it begins at the age of 18 months when a child is first able to discern what is happening on television.


Why do commercials during the Super Bowl cost $2.5 million for a thirty second spot? An ad run during Seinfeld (in its time, of course) cost $2 million each. $750,000 for a spot on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?". There is a reason why. Ford, Coke, Apple, and every other company know one simple fact: it works. The money spent on these ads will be remade easily. They know that the Joe watching these ads will be urged to buy the product, even if he doesn't realize it. How many times have you bought a product thinking, "since I saw this commercial, I will buy this item"? Now, how many times can you look back and realize in hind sight that's exactly what you had done? Advertising works. Television is a powerful medium, and it tells us what is right to wear, what we should behave like, who got married to J-lo this week.

A scary note: "two plus" is what the rating system for television is referred to as. It means that they are targeting two year olds.

"Blame it on the video games and/or the media!" is not my cry. But we need to admit something here: video games and TV are effective at altering the thinking process of people, children included. Without any balance, there is a massive problem.
  • Victim Disarmament Zones
I'm sure you know that it is widely accepted as a national law, and more concretely as a state law in nearly all fifty, that firearms and any other defensive tools are strictly forbidden on school grounds. Do you think criminals do not know this? Criminals are known to choose victims that they believe will resist the least. Of course they do! They may be criminals, but they are proficient at their trade, and not stupid. They are well aware that schools are extraordinarily unlikely to have the capability to put up any sort of a defense. I firmly believe this is why an Amish school was chosen in Lancaster County. The shooter had no grudge against the Amish, but he surely knew that it would make a very easy target. It appears clearly to me that he did not care WHO he shot, just that they not fight back. Is that why he ordered the men to vacate, and then ordered the women to face away, and form a line against the chalkboard, and drop to their knees before he began executing them?

I am not suggesting that we begin teaching a class in 2nd grade, "the defensive handgun and you", but I do think its unreasonable to tell a principal that he is responsible for the safety of a school full of students, and then not allow him the tools that are available to him to protect himself when he is alone or with his family in public. The same goes for teachers. They are ordered to lock, hide away from the door, and call the police in the event of an armed intruder. Why do you suppose they should call the police? Because it is clear that at this point, laws and legal deterrents have not been effective in stopping this individual from committing a violent crime, and it is necessary to meet force with force. That force can either be a police officer and his side-arm, or a legally armed school-faculty member who is trained and willing to utilize that training to eliminate the threat posed to him and the student body.
  • Parental Abandonment
Why is it that so many parents these days are convinced that if they don't take their kids to baseball practice, to karate, to football practice, and then back to the baseball game, they must not be good enough parents? Especially in rural areas, families whose kids are not in a multitude of organized activities are looked down upon as though they are not putting enough effort into the proper up-bringing of the children. Why is it no longer sufficient for parents to turn the kids loose on the neighbor hood with a ball, a bat, and dad's old glove with the single caveat of "be home by dinner?"

Ipods, cell phones, padded bras, and thongs. Why do six year olds need these things? Why do parents buy them these things? Is it because the parents can relate to the created need? In this society, we are convinced that we need to have the shiniest, fastest, smallest (or biggest) of everything. People are willing to sacrifice family values in order to provide with material things. How many times have you seen this happen: a person NEEDS to have this one particular thing in order to be happy, and when they buy it they are-for a while. Before long, it no longer makes them feel fulfilled, and they go on to the next thing. Are parents doing this to their children as well? To make up for lost "emotional value", they provide them with material items that do not hold any value. The result is a child who is empty, and does not know what will fill the void.

I saw on the news the other day a story about a teenage boy who had beaten to death a homeless man. When asked why he would do such a thing, the teen replied, "I guess for fun...it was entertainment." What is a boy like this missing that he thinks he will be able to fill with killing homeless men and women?







I don't know what I think should be done. I don't know what should be changed. I just know that there is something very wrong in America right now, and we need to figure out what it is. The recent string of school shootings has just been a catalyst of thinking for me, and these are some things I came up with. I don't know how valid they are. What do you think?
 
History Prof
I used to think the agent provocateur argument was total hogwash. Now, I'm not so sure. There are plenty of instances in history where a political organization is willing to sacrifice innocent lives to achieve a goal. Notice how these things tend to increase around election times?
This shooter and target has some parallels with the acts of Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane, Scotland which occurred in 1996. And I suspect that as in the case of Hamilton we will not get a detailed report of Charles Roberts full background, any psychiatric care or "treatment", and perhaps more importantly - a look into all his personal associations with other named people. There is a considerable amount of information about Hamilton that surfaced well after the fact, none of it revealed in detail via the media in the U.K.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Beyond words...............

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200610/NAT20061004a.html

"A Kansas-based group that says "God hates fags" plans to picket the funerals of the Amish girls killed by a disturbed man in Lancaster County, Pa."

The right to free speech-------------yes.............Much as our right to unleash a can---no--a drum o' whoopass on them for violating the Amish' moral right to solitude during this terrible time!!!

I certainly hope the appropriate counter-protestors silence these wackos with all due dilligence at their disposal
 
Futile noble gestures are just dandy - but one has to use one's brain.

The little pregnant wife is immediately shot to death and her baby dies. Thanks for all the posturing.

It is possible that getting help might save the day. Of course, that is a crap shoot but your brain is a better tool than reflexive internet rating.

A summary of many internet gun board responses is that:

"The Amish should carry guns in order to prevent massacres planned by the Brady organization to further their agenda of disarmament, socialims and gay rights."

Makes a lot of sense doesn't it? :barf:
 
"The Amish should carry guns in order to prevent massacres planned by the Brady organization to further their agenda of disarmament, socialims and gay rights."

:D :D :D

You know, when I first read the theory that the Brady Bunch was pulling this stuff off, I had to wonder how they would find someone so committed to their cause that they were willing to both violate everything they stand for, and then die for it!

I understand how the Moslems get suicide bombers to sign up, promising them a spot in heaven with 70 virgins and all that, but what would the Brady Bunch promise those who give their lives in the effort - the assurance of more laws passed post mortem? :barf:
 
I know how to make us all safe

Its a simple matter really. We give up all rights, for the common good. The government will tell us were to live, what jobs we can do, who we can associate with, what groups if any we can belong to, and what things if any we can own unto ourselves. Then the government can install cameras on every corner, in every public building. When that is done the government can train and hire a force of secret police to watch for subversive and potentially dangerous people. When these people are found, or exposed by other good citizens, the secret police will come and wisk them away never to be seen again.......This way we all can be safe from crime, crazies, ect. !!!

OH WAIT! its already been tried........crap.

New Idea, how about taking a look around and pulling a cranium out of a rectum...Can anyone say personal responsibility??? Freedom isnt free. There are risks to living in a free society. it just goes with the territory. If the risks are to great then there is a immigration policy in place to allow you to leave for a country more suited to your ideology, say N. Korea?

This is going to boil down to a "guns are bad" outcry again. A gun is nothing but a tool, a chunk of iron and wood, just like a hammer. Both can be used for things constructive or destructivel The only difference is the idiot or craftsman holding it. Use the thing right, in a manner fitting a craftsman, not an idiot.
 
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20061004a.html

"A Kansas-based group that says "God hates fags" plans to picket the funerals of the Amish girls killed by a disturbed man in Lancaster County, Pa."

O...M...G! Has anyone ever HEARD these freaks speak? One was on....ah, some talk radio station out of Knoxville (100.3) this morning. Their ideas are disturbing enough, but hearing the outright ZEAL in this woman's voice was a scary thing! :what:

"Free Speech" or not, there are sitll laws against communicating threats and disturbing the peace! If I was in charge of the local PD, I'd be ordering me a few fire-extinguisher sized cans of Mace...! :fire:

EDIT - Thankfully, they are now NOT going there:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,217760,00.html

Guess they got their hour-long slot on another radio show that they wanted.... :rolleyes:
 
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