Anti gun consequences of Paris attack

[Whats-his-name]

I am not sure where you came up with the idea that this proposal should come into force on 8 April. This version has been struck down both in the European Council and in the respective Committees of the European Parliament.

I need to correct myself - it refers to deactivated weapons and does come into force on the 8th April 2016. There will be more stringent deactivation which basically reduces the historical value of the item. Not good.

...and like it's really going to stop the smuggling and illegal use of live firearms around Europe!!

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.333.01.0062.01.ENG

 

[vaupet]

The commision will not have it its way.

Hereby a link to the draft report from UK MEP Vicky Ford to the members of the EU, (yess a Britisch Lady...)

Semi-automatic firearms resembling full auto firearms wil not be banned
collectors will still have the posibility to own full functioning fully automatic firearms
In its end conclusion miss Ford states that quote "It is important to recognise that the vast majority of firearms held legally in the EU do not
present any danger to the public. " unquote and that quote "The Rapporteur understands that the Commission's proposal to recategorise "semiautomatic
firearms for civilian use that resemble weapons with automatic mechanisms" into Category A
would cause many practical problems in implementation and has been tried and rejected in
certain Member States in the past." unquote

They do trie to close the loophole where full auto guns (like ak47) get demilled in the east (ie by pouring some lead in the barrel) , then transported to the west and then restored to full function, a practise used by criminals and terrorist.

Like my little sister said (she is a member of the EP) : further restrictions for the LAC will not pass in this parliament .

The elected EU politician here show their common sense.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides.../NONSGML+COMPARL+PE-578.822+01+DOC+PDF+V0//EN

 

[joem1945]

It wasn't that hard for me to buy a M16. It did take a while for the paper work to go through. That was some 20 years ago. It was a fun toy but went through a lot of ammo.

 

[barnbwt]

It is important to recognise that the vast majority of firearms held legally in the EU do not present any danger to the public.

Spelling recognize with an 's' --savages. Otherwise, excellent quote

Frankly, I agree as far as the demilling. Not that I agree it should need to be done, of course, but if the law states a gun is to be destroyed for whatever purpose, the state at least has the burden of ensuring it is actually destroyed. I personally think the ATF over in the States is a bit overly aggressive on this front (not one, not two, but three 1/4" wide torch cuts through the receiver, as well as the barrel at this time, often requiring either/both be discarded entirely) as it doesn't even allow for mock weapons to be made profitably. We often get the worst of both; a kit with a heavily demilled barrel & bolt face suitable for Euro buyers, subsequently vivisected with a torch upon arrival on our shores . My ZB37 is one such example (barrel drilled, slotted, and welded at both ends and the end of the slot, then the receiver torched into five beautiful pieces)

I also think that full auto bans are stepping stones to bans on all autoloading weapons, so I am glad to see the EU is at least backing off on that front...for now. The difference between them is really about as significant as Apple vs Mac from a technological perspective; far more similar than different, and basically performing the same task.

TCB

 

[RoscoeBryant]

The big part of the directive - banning B7 weapons - should be off the table for now, but don't forget the other very concerning parts of it. The current draft still includes the implementation of continuous or periodic medical checks for possession of firearms as well as a 5 year limitation on gun licenses which could be changed to a "may issue" state in the course of changing the national firearm laws (due to the way the current draft is formulated).

We must remain cautious of the further developement, although may be a bit more optimistic than wo could have with the first draft by the commission.

 

[vaupet]

Hy Roscoe,

In Belgium we are used to this, because we have the medical and the 5 year renewal in practise for years now.
It is not bad.
The medical is not realy an exam but just a declaration from your own GP, so unless you have some serious mental illness, it poses no problem at all.

The five year renewal (I just passed it) is also just a piece of burocracy and in reality the laws are 'shall issue' , when you meet the requirements.

We just need to change one word: where it states 'can be renewed' we need to get 'will be renewed'

I already suggested the change to 'my' MEP.

What is realy important is the phrase were they state that "legally kept firearms are no danger to the public"

But, of course, best to stay vigilant.

 

[Whats-his-name]

Thanks for the PDF link Vaupet. Interesting to read.

It is important to recognise that the vast majority of firearms held legally in the EU do not present any danger to the public.

As Barnbwt says, a remarkable but nonetheless appreciated comment from an UK MEP. Mind you, if she had said that in the UK parliament, she'd have been shot down in flames (such is the blind hysteria in my native country).

 

[RoscoeBryant]

Hy Roscoe,

In Belgium we are used to this, because we have the medical and the 5 year renewal in practise for years now.
It is not bad.
The medical is not realy an exam but just a declaration from your own GP, so unless you have some serious mental illness, it poses no problem at all.

The five year renewal (I just passed it) is also just a piece of burocracy and in reality the laws are 'shall issue' , when you meet the requirements.

We just need to change one word: where it states 'can be renewed' we need to get 'will be renewed'

I already suggested the change to 'my' MEP.

What is realy important is the phrase were they state that "legally kept firearms are no danger to the public"

But, of course, best to stay vigilant.

In Austria, we do not have this system in place, and we have two very large problems with it.

1, Obtaining a license in Austria requires a very costly psychological evaluation, there is a lot of fear in our country, that the medical checks could include a mandatory evaluation every 5 years (there is already a party pushing for this step) because of the phrase "and shall withdraw authorisations if any of the conditions (...) the basis of which the acquisition or possession was allowed are no longer met"

2, we had two or three idiotic rulings of the highest court last spring, stating that basically no one needs to carry a handgun in public. Up until then, for hunters, police officers, guard personnel etc. it was possible (not easy, but possible) to acquire a carry permit, now they are banned from that. As all previous licenses do not expire, there are about 80.000 people with carry permits in Austria today. If the licenses have to be renewed after 5 years (wich presumably will work retroactively on existing licenses), next to all of those licenses will be withdrawn.


Of course, the current draft is not as bad as the first one. But I refrain from applauding it, as it still is a hit in the face for all legal gun owners.

 

[gilgsn]

I just returned to France after spending 22 years in the US. The regulations here are certainly worse than they were back then, which was already pretty bad.

Gil

 

[Branko_D]

Over here in Croatia you need to go through a medical (including psychic) reevaluation every 5 years and renew the license every 5 years. The medical exam is not so expensive, however, around 50-60 Euro. Still, it is a hassle, as are periodical police checkups.

Mostly the renewals are an exercise in bureaucracy and the police have proposed to extend the period to 10 years to cut down on constant checks and to eliminate periodic police visits unless they have reason to suspect trouble, so this change of law will probably pass.

Technically speaking it is 'may-issue' for cathegory B firearms, but realistically if requirements are met and there are no obvious problems which come up (like a recent criminal history, mental health problems or problematic relations with family and neighbours), there's no real problem with it.

Carry permits are another matter. You can legally carry tasers, spray or a broadsword if you really like (as long as you're sober, it's concealed, and not at a public gathering - eg. not at a football match), but if it propels a bullet, a permit is required and generally carry permits aren't given easy.

 

[Snejdarek]

They do trie to close the loophole where full auto guns (like ak47) get demilled in the east (ie by pouring some lead in the barrel) , then transported to the west and then restored to full function, a practise used by criminals and terrorist.http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides.../NONSGML+COMPARL+PE-578.822+01+DOC+PDF+V0//EN

This Slovak loophole was closed in April 2015 after the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

 

[Snejdarek]

Over here in Croatia you need to go through a medical (including psychic) reevaluation every 5 years and renew the license every 5 years. The medical exam is not so expensive, however, around 50-60 Euro. Still, it is a hassle, as are periodical police checkups.

What do police periodical check-ups include? Do they have the right to enter a home like in Germany?

 

[Snejdarek]

Some news from the Czech Republic.

- National Security Council denounced the EU gun ban proposal http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ct24/do...pecnostni-rada-odmitla-unijni-regulaci-zbrani
- Czech Senate denounced the EU gun ban proposal http://www.denik.cz/z_domova/senat-...omezeni-legalniho-drzeni-zbrani-20160420.html
- Today, the Czech Chamber of Deputies voted 142 out of 144 present to denounce EU gun ban http://roklen24.cz/a/i4xn7/snemovna-je-proti-zameru-evropskeho-omezeni-pro-legalni-zbrane

This all means that the Czech vote in the European Council will be strictly against. Czech minister of interior announced that he will do his best to get other countries on board (he has already secured support of Poland, Slovakia and Hungary, meanwhile Estonia got on board Latvia and Lithuania).

In other news:
- Swedish government was lambasted by local media for opposing the proposal in front of home audience but not fighting it in Brussels. Change in attitude will hopefully follow.
- Norway and Switzerland, which are not members of EU but would be bound by the rules as EFTA/Schengen members, started voicing their opposition.
- Netherlands went completely nuts and wants to ban all pistols in EU.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Let me see; A lot of unarmed citizens were shot down by gun-wielding terrorists. So the solution is to further disarm the potential victims, and import more terrorists in the guise of "refugees."

Have I got that right?

 

[GarySTL]

I think that's it in a nutshell.

 

[wyk]

I feel European gun owners have to be more serious about writing and lobbying their members of EU parliament as well as their respective national legislators. I met an Italian and Belgian gun owner at my range. I asked them about the upcoming EU directive and what they were doing to ensure that it would not pass. Their reply? Nothing. They were complacent that this directive would not pass and were happy to leave the writing and lobbying to the already "many gun owners who oppose the directive". Such complacency by gun owners is a formula for success for the gun grabbers.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke

 

[RoscoeBryant]

Sadly you are right - there are a lot of gun owners out there, who don't care about writing their representatives at best, and silently support such initiatives at worst. I know a number of "wooden stock or nothing"-type hunters who have a "why would anyone need such military firearms"-attitude. I guess the first time they will wake up is when some politician gets aware of their "sniper-rifles", until then they don't care about fellow gun owners loosing their rights

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As Martin Niemoeller said of the Nazis,

“In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.”

 

[Snejdarek]

Sadly you are right - there are a lot of gun owners out there, who don't care about writing their representatives at best, and silently support such initiatives at worst. I know a number of "wooden stock or nothing"-type hunters who have a "why would anyone need such military firearms"-attitude. I guess the first time they will wake up is when some politician gets aware of their "sniper-rifles", until then they don't care about fellow gun owners loosing their rights

There was similar attitude from heads of sport shooting and hunting organizations in the Czech Republic couple of years ago. Unlike elsewhere in Europe, these are in minority - most gun owners here have their guns simply for self defense.

It took some time and effort of Czech NRA (www.gunlex.cz) but they have succeeded in getting through the message that gun grabbers want all, they are just doing it step by step. Just yesterday there was an article on proposed withdrawal of firearms from Olympics with following commentary: "We've heard it many times from sport shooters that they don't need to worry about gun control as nobody would ban guns used at Olympics. Is there still anybody who thinks that gun grabbers end game doesn't include their rimfire sport guns?"

http://www.clay-shooting.com/news/d...of-being-pulled-from-the-tokyo-2020-olympics/

 

[wyk]

There was similar attitude from heads of sport shooting and hunting organizations in the Czech Republic couple of years ago. Unlike elsewhere in Europe, these are in minority - most gun owners here have their guns simply for self defense.

It took some time and effort of Czech NRA (www.gunlex.cz) but they have succeeded in getting through the message that gun grabbers want all, they are just doing it step by step. Just yesterday there was an article on proposed withdrawal of firearms from Olympics with following commentary: "We've heard it many times from sport shooters that they don't need to worry about gun control as nobody would ban guns used at Olympics. Is there still anybody who thinks that gun grabbers end game doesn't include their rimfire sport guns?"

http://www.clay-shooting.com/news/d...of-being-pulled-from-the-tokyo-2020-olympics/

I do think the East Europeans, especially the Czechs and Slovaks gun owners or at least those I have met are more united with regards to defending their rights. On the other hand, those from Western Europe (I have had the chance to compete and talk and length with Italian, German, French, Belgian and Luxembourg gun owners) are more complacent. Take this current EU directive change as an example, I spoke with 3 Belgian gun owners I know about it. All 3 were extremely confident and complacent it would not pass. One even told me that "there was enough opposition to it in Belgium" and hence he was "leaving the writing and lobbying to the many others". I told him if every gun owner thought the same way you did the directive would definitely pass and you can kiss your Oberland rifle goodbye.

 

[vaupet]

As it stands today, the commisions proposal to ban semi-auto rifles has been refused and slimmed down, to the point now where they discuss that semi auto rifles, designed for military use and with a barrel lenght of less then 30 centimeters and a total lenght of less then 60 centimeters will be banned, and even this is under discussion, and will probably not pass.

They also are trying to ban magazine with more then 20 rounds, under impulse from the Dutch presidency, and I think this will ultimately pass as they will want something to show.

The most ennoying part imho the banning of old fully automatic firearms converted to semi-auto, wich is a pity because many BAR's and Thompson will be outlawed that way.

 

[Snejdarek]

I do think the East Europeans, especially the Czechs and Slovaks gun owners or at least those I have met are more united with regards to defending their rights.

I didn't say that. What happened is that we got from a point a few years ago where heads of various Czech sport shooting and hunting organizations were complacent with more gun control taking the stand that it would never have impact on themselves (which mostly means ownership of bolt action rifles and over-under shotguns in case of most hunters and rimfire guns in case of sport shooting associations). Now they either got the memo that we are all in the same water (as I said, most Czechs are not members of any sport shooting clubs nor hunters, but own their guns for self defense), or they don't dare to voice their opinions loudly because they know they could as well resign on their posts.

The most ennoying part imho the banning of old fully automatic firearms converted to semi-auto, wich is a pity because many BAR's and Thompson will be outlawed that way.

Most semi-auto rifles Czechs own are converted vz.58s. There were 50.000 of semi-auto rifles in the country before the Commission proposal. Now, half-a-year later, all shops are "sold out" of vz.58s as well as most AR-15s; I guess that there are by now some 60.000-70.000 of them among gun owners. Outright ban would need majority vote on the issue against Czech veto - the problem is politicized in the country to the point that

- National Security Council denounced the EU gun ban proposal http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ct24/dom...egulaci-zbrani
- Czech Senate denounced the EU gun ban proposal http://www.denik.cz/z_domova/senat-o...-20160420.html
- Today, the Czech Chamber of Deputies voted 142 out of 144 present to denounce EU gun ban http://roklen24.cz/a/i4xn7/snemovna-...legalni-zbrane

As far as I understand the current aim of the Commission is to get them into A7 category which would become may issue Europewide (and in Czech reality very permissive may issue in the country).

More interesting news that came from Czech ministry of interior is that Dutch presidency of EU Council is aiming at having ALL SEMI-AUTO firearms in A category. Which is understood as direct attack on our shall issue concealed carry and might get our politicians go berserk on the Dutch ahead of the autumn Czech regional elections.

 

[wyk]

I didn't say that. What happened is that we got from a point a few years ago where heads of various Czech sport shooting and hunting organizations were complacent with more gun control taking the stand that it would never have impact on themselves (which mostly means ownership of bolt action rifles and over-under shotguns in case of most hunters and rimfire guns in case of sport shooting associations). Now they either got the memo that we are all in the same water (as I said, most Czechs are not members of any sport shooting clubs nor hunters, but own their guns for self defense), or they don't dare to voice their opinions loudly because they know they could as well resign on their posts.


Most semi-auto rifles Czechs own are converted vz.58s. There were 50.000 of semi-auto rifles in the country before the Commission proposal. Now, half-a-year later, all shops are "sold out" of vz.58s as well as most AR-15s; I guess that there are by now some 60.000-70.000 of them among gun owners. Outright ban would need majority vote on the issue against Czech veto - the problem is politicized in the country to the point that



As far as I understand the current aim of the Commission is to get them into A7 category which would become may issue Europewide (and in Czech reality very permissive may issue in the country).

More interesting news that came from Czech ministry of interior is that Dutch presidency of EU Council is aiming at having ALL SEMI-AUTO firearms in A category. Which is understood as direct attack on our shall issue concealed carry and might get our politicians go berserk on the Dutch ahead of the autumn Czech regional elections.

Don't get me wrong. What I said about East European gun owners being more united stems from my personal opinion from my interaction with them.

Case in point :
I spoke to a Slovak gun collector who has a concealed permit in Slovakia. He told me most gun owners in Slovakia were united in opposition to the proposed new EU directive and that hunters, sport shooters and collectors were united in their opposition and will fight tooth and nail to prevent it from being passed and that they would not even accept any compromise such as having a ban on "high capacity mags", which he labelled as salami slicing tactics by the EU Commission. He told me almost all gun owners around him including hunters and .22 sport shooters were actively writing their MEPs and national legislators. On the other hand, the 3 Belgians and Italian whom I spoke to sounded so confident the semi-auto ban would not pass and were happy to leave the lobbying and writing to organizations and other gun owners in Belgium. Even worse was a German friend I met at a practical rifle event years back. I wrote to him about the proposed EU gun ban. He seemed resigned that the Commission would somehow get its way somewhat and all he was doing was "pray that the incompetent bureaucrats would leave some kind of loophole in their ban". He told me the EU is an undemocratic institution that would bulldoze its way to get what it wants and their was no point in doing any writing or lobbying.

 

[Snejdarek]

He told me almost all gun owners around him including hunters and .22 sport shooters were actively writing their MEPs and national legislators.

There is a lot of disdain with EU in the V4 countries ever since the very first majority decision was passed in the EU Council (immigrant quota).

This has made EU politics a central topic also in national political debate - until then EU politics was seen as something too far away and also as something that national politicians are not seen as being responsible for.

The fact that Germany, France, Sweden & co. (whose combination of welfare and permissive asylum rules made EU a magnet for low skilled immigrants) can now decide that an average Czech will have to accept immigrants from Central Africa as new neighbors despite his own government's opposition has made many people ask the national politicians "what you gonna do 'bout it?". Hungary and Slovakia are now suing EU due to the majority vote (which is extremely hostile act in EU politics), Poland and Slovakia refuses to act on the quotas (accept immigrants). Czech government made it clear they will sue if the quotas are made permanent.

So the gunban proposal came at the best time as regards willingness of people as well as national politicians to fight back, at least in the Czech Republic.

He seemed resigned that the Commission would somehow get its way somewhat and all he was doing was "pray that the incompetent bureaucrats would leave some kind of loophole in their ban".

Germans are and have always been extremely content with following anything that comes from up higher, be it Brussels or Nazi high command. That is why the first thing German government asks when "gun ban" is mentioned is "how many days do we have to collect the guns?" Meanwhile in Prague they ask "what the f--k do you expect us to do with tens of thousands guns being filed lost and getting to the black market?"