Anti-gun Gunnies

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Anyone who calls themself pro-gun, but also believes that "reasonable gun control" is OK, is simply a young person, who hasn't learned his/her lesson yet. Mark my words. As you grow older, and see more and more absolutely ineffectual gun control get passed by our legislators with absolutly no effect on criminal activity, while continually making your life more difficult, taking away your freedoms, you will change your mind. I guarantee it.
 
I had my first .22 when I was 7 years old so that makes 50 years. In all honesty, I can't say that I have ever had a gun law affect me directly. I know, just wait.
 
A buddy of mine who is a lifelong gun owner and owns dozens of firearms has often said that he sees no reason that anyone other than military and LEO's should be allowed to own guns that hold more than 10 rounds. I disagree.
 
I am so sick of hearing the 1st Amendment being referred as regulating "coffee talk". The only thing the 1st protects is Political Speech. Why is it do you think politicians can lie through their teeth without being held for libel or slander?

The 1st guarantees you the right to dissent from your government in the form of vocal and written media; I also believe this right extends to the internet, TV and radio and therefore these formats should not be regulated in the way that they are. The 1st also does not guarantee you the right to be heard.

How about this for sensible gun control: When someone buys a gun have them sign a pledge saying that they promise not to use it for criminal activity.
 
If you want to see harm, start issuing full autos without background checks to criminals. If this happens, none of us will be able to own.

There wouldn't be much harm done, truth to tell. I don't guess that you've had a lot of experience with full-auto weapons or else you'd realize differently. Unless gang-bangers learned to use the weapons a little better than how they normally use them, I don't think we'd really see much, if any, additional harm done. Just because it fires a bunch of bullets fast doesn't mean that they hit anything better. I rather have a guy with a mini-Uzi spraying bullets at me from the hip than a guy taking cool aim at me with a Garand.
 
If the only thing the First Amendment protects is political speech, how is it that it is the justification behind Rowe v. Wade and legalized abortion? The first amendment does much much more than protect political speech.
 
in before the lock (nt)

How long will it take to recognize inappropriate topics and references?

More than 112 posts, apparently.

Jim H.
 
#46

You said: "The criminals already get everything they want or can afford without background checks. Restricting us law abiding citizens while thinking you'll catch criminals through background checks they're not going through... that's harm.

I am not trying to "catch" criminals with background checks. I am trying to keep criminals from buying legally. If you drop the background check, many criminals will just buy from gun stores. I believe we gun owners have the high ground when we point out that criminals don't buy legally.

Criminals, who by definition aren't law abiding, can't buy legally as it is. I agree that they shouldn't be able to. What I'm getting at though is that so-called "reasonable gun control" isn't keeping criminals from buying at all. It doesn't work as advertised because it doesn't "keep guns out of the hands of criminals". Gun control proponents don't have the high ground because they infringe on citizens' rights by pushing and passing fraudulent legal schemes.

In a perfect world where gun ownership and carry rights are recognized by the courts and almost all of America, a purist attitude is great. After all, who is going to blame the "tool" for the fool in that circumstance?

In a perfect world? Keep compromising and you compromise all your Rights away. You'll wake up one day without your Rights and wondering what just happened.

But the reality is gun ownership has NOT been recognized as a set in stone right in this country (even though it is a legal right), and the gun grabbers will use everything to take them all away from us.

Yeah. They're using your "reasonable gun control". Consider their tactics of incrementalism.

Hey Everybody, Is it just me or is he talking in circles?

My argument simply is that limited gun control, like background checks and training, further legitimizes our cause and helps people see past the stereotypical image of a gun owner. Without those, we get lobbed in with the crooks!

I don't believe they legitimize our cause. I haven't seen where an anti-gunner chooses to see past the stereotype based on background checks and training. Common sense legitimizes our cause. I learned to shoot from my father. He learned from his father (U.S. Army Vet 1942-50) who first learned from his father. And none of us have been anything like the usual stereotypes I hear about. I'm part of a family that includes our share of real hunters (as opposed to slobs and Fudds) although not all are still with us. We've not been "lobbed in with the crooks" by image.
 
#'s 59 and 60

If the only thing the First Amendment protects is political speech, how is it that it is the justification behind Rowe v. Wade and legalized abortion? The first amendment does much much more than protect political speech.

How long will it take to recognize inappropriate topics and references?

More than 112 posts, apparently.

In my opinion, from everything I can see, the First Amendment protects Freedom of the Press, Freedom of Speech, and the Right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness (also thought of as Property). The Second Amendment RKBA stands to defend the 1st A. Rights, however, the 1st A. also covers our RKBA in that it's the right to Property- the tools to defend our Lives, Liberty, and Properties. The 1st A. protects our Civil Rights, of which the RKBA is one, yet the same 1st A. gets misconstrued to mean a living person can be killed before being born for whatever reason they come up with. And the kid can't exercise the 2nd A. Rights yet... can't defend their own life.
 
Woof the 1st has 2 parts one dealing with political speech and one dealing with the establishment of religion.

How RoeVWade factors into that is beyond me except to say that just because a law is being violated and upheld by the Supreme Court doesn't make it right. Remember at one time slavery was legal; didn't make it right. Just meant atleast 5 guys in black robes said it was.
 
I posit: There is no person present in this debate with a logical, compelling reason a free man can't own a NFA weapon.

Cry foul, but back your assertions up.
 
HK- I have never heard a single reason why we can't own a NFA anywhere, much less this debate.

We all have our own line we draw as to what we believe is reasonable gun control. For me it is with back ground checks, provided that the people on the list are violent/sex offender or are (or have been)certifiably insane and no one else, and a basic safety class for people who want to carry. For others the line is much further out or much closer in.

I don't believe that back ground checks will stop criminals from buying guns, just that it will stop them from buying guns from gun stores/shows. A call like that just takes a few minutes of our time and can be done while we are filling out our paperwork. If nothing else it stops gangbangers from buying guns at Walmart. Will they still get guns? Sure, but not at the gun store.


Simple safety course; why? One poster mentioned that his firearms knowledge came from several generations of knowledge being handed down from father to son but not everyone is so lucky. Some parents know nothing of firearms to teach their sons. Some parents may never have thought to teach their daughters firearms basics. Some people don't have any parents. Whatever the reason I think it is foolish to think that anyone who walks into a gun store understands the basics of firearm safety and the responsibilities that come with it. I think that anyone who is going to be carrying in public, for the sake of public safety, needs to know what other responsible owners are going to expect of them. I do not know of one single person with a CCP who has not told me how much valuable and necessary information they gleaned from their CC class.

I will add that I think the BATF fees are entirely too high. Maybe there is a good reason why they are what they are but I don't know of any.
 
It seems you're surrounded by those with similar afflictions as yourself.

Monkeybear said:
I think that anyone who is going to be carrying in public, for the sake of public safety, needs to know what other responsible owners are going to expect of them. I do not know of one single person with a CCP who has not told me how much valuable and necessary information they gleaned from their CC class.


WRONG! (the logic, not the emotion) I'm sorry, but this is the same logic as "people should learn to drive before being licensed!" ... there was a time, not too long ago ... that folks just drove around in cars.

Look, for a second, into all the different licensing schemes of the republic .... all the way back ... they just grow ... all along they get bigger.

That's the formula you want to hand me for guns? Nahh, I'm good, thanks.

and could you leave the "sex offenders" out of this? They could have been peeing on a street. Really.
 
No

HK,

In all fairness, he said training, not licensing. There is a HUGE difference there.

When I got my CCW, I had to attend a 3 hour class, held at a private range, that showed me the basics of firearm safety and ownership. The cost was $75, which included class and range time. It was the best money I ever spent.

My parents (esp my mother) were anti's, and I have no friends who own guns, so this was the best option for me. Frankly, I wouldn't want half the people in the class carrying unless they had taken the course!!!
 
Monkeybear said:
As to the carry class, the whole "but who decides? argument just appeals to me emotionally but not rationally. A basic safety course for anyone who wants to carry makes sense to me. It might not to you, I am not trying to convince you. I am just giving a differing opinion: I see nothing wrong with being a 2A purist.
One only need look to NY to see this is more than an emotional appeal. It takes a test plus, what, six months of background checks and waiting periods to get a license to purchase a handgun there? And if you live near NYC or some other big cities, you can forget about getting a license to carry. As such, asking who decides is the million dollar question.

Or what about this article from Australia that someone posted here a couple of weeks ago? The president of Gun Control Australia suggests that before one can get a license to own any gun, they should pass a six month long class. Australia and England are shining examples of just how slippery the slope is from "reasonable" things like proficiency/safety testing. Can we really trust the antis to not extend a "basic safety course" to the point it's like getting a masters degree in physics.

And for that matter, what point would a safety course serve anyway? Accidental firearm deaths are already nearly as rare as being struck by lightning, so it seems to me a solution in search of a problem. If we're talking about preventing homicide, well, wouldn't a trained shooter be more dangerous than someone who doesn't know which is the pointy end, should they decide they wish to harm someone?
 
HK- In all fairness I would not want someone to lose their right to own firearms because of public urination. I still feel that sex offenders such as molesters and rapist have no right to own firearms.

I do feel that people should learn to drive before going out on the road. Basic understanding of what other responsible drivers expect of your and of traffic laws is crucial to the general safety of others on the road.

I notice in my own personal experience that despite guns being so prevalent in our society there is also an undeniable air of taboo about them. I find that despite the huge number of firearms in our country most people actually know very little about them. I got into trouble at work the other day because me and a guy were talking guns in the break-room and made the shift leader on duty uncomfortable. This "taboo" is to blame for most peoples ignorance of firearms. I don't like it but unfortunately its real. I think a simple basic safety and firearm law class is pretty common sense to anyone who plans to carry a gun around with them. As to actual testing, well if you fire 15 rounds at a man sized target at 3 feet and can't hit it once in a controlled situation then you probably need to learn to shoot your gun before you start carrying it around. For general public safety I find it hard to disagree with a basic marksmanship test requirement for CC. Am I adamant about it? No, but I don't disagree with it.

Calling my opinions "afflictions" is really just a personal attack and its comments like those that cause your opinions to lose credibility with me, and not the fact that we disagree.

I am not advocating any law that would further restrict gun ownership. I have stated several times that I think many such laws in the books or in the works are complete failures or obviously doomed to failure. All that I am saying is that certain restrictions do make sense to me provided that your agenda is to further promote firearm ownership with public safety in mind and not simply to get rid of guns. As long as all the yahoo politicians out there trying to rid us of our rights that will never happen.
 
Monkeybear said:
I think a simple basic safety and firearm law class is pretty common sense to anyone who plans to carry a gun around with them.

as a mandatory qualifier for owning a firearm, i highly disagree. as a proposal for a new class in school...well, then youre on to something.
 
Reasonable "gun control" only further legitimizes gun ownership IMO. No Constitutional right is an unlimited one.

The problem is that once you give credit to "reasonable" laws you undo the very definition of the 2nd. If you don't really believe it will stop criminals from aquiring guns you are undermining the very wording of the 2nd that defines your right to arms and threatening your future ownership simply to inconvenience criminals. That seems pretty stupid.


I have used this example before because it is so clear in its effect:

Mexico has a 2nd Amendment. It was put in place after the revolution by the people who had just dealt with repressive government and they borrowed the idea from the United States. It is Article 10 of thier constitution:

"Citizens of the republic may, for their protection, own guns and arms in their homes. Only arms sanctioned by the Army may be owned, and federal law will state the manner in which they can be used."

Well as we know Mexico basicly has no right to arms and does not let more than a small minority possess any arms. There is fewer than 2500 registered legal gun owners in Mexico, a nation with a population of 103,000,000+ people. Those few that do are generaly limited to a .22 or shotgun for pests in very rural locations. The result is drug cartels and criminals are well armed, police and government are well armed, and the citizens have to gravitate to one or the other for safety.

This is all because they essentialy undid any right to arms by saying the government could outlaw them and choose how they could be used. In America the "Shall not be infringed" is the only wording that changes it for us.
Governments naturaly do not want armed citizens, it impedes control and posses a risk to those making unpopular decisions.

However as we see, even many gun rights advocate support bans for certain types of weapons, certain people, restrictions etc Well once you agree that "shall not be infringed" does not 'really' mean "shall NOT be INFRINGED" it is up to others to define. It becomes nothing more than a line in the sand, to be moved further and further from a right. This is especialy important as the Supreme Court rarely hears the issue and generaly has tried to avoid dealing with it. When they finaly do hear it, if they decide that "shall not be infringed" does not really mean "shall not be infringed" and uphold certain agencies rulings or laws or guidelines as to infringement then the second and many other rights in the Bill of Rights ceases to have any meaning beyond being symbolic.
The Bill of Rights was never about what the people are allowed to do, it was about what the government is not allowed to do, even if the people or government think it is a good idea at the time.

So do you think shall not be infringed means "shall NOT be INFRINGED" or do you think it needs to be redefined every 10 years by legislation? Follow the example of the other nations we share a legal past with? The UK, Australia, NZ, Canada? Gradualy restrict them till the right is only a privelidge for a limited few for use against animals, the types one can get permission for are limited to those which pose no deterent to government, and the police and other agents run around with very capable military arms and body armor?
That is the very drastic imbalance of power the people breaking away from a tyrannical British Empire sought to prevent with the 2nd.
In such a society people like Hitler can get a lot accomplished in a very short time. Don't forget he was elected by the people of Germany fair and square. His National Socialist party was very appealing to the people going through the depression at the time. The people and the government can decide to do stupid things in a short timespan, that is why we have the constitution. The Constitution is only as sacred as the people decide it is by not allowing the government to waiver from it.

I would like to say "criminals shouldn't have guns", "some shouldn't have full auto" but these are "infringements" to the constitution and are relatively recent in our history. Before 1968 anyone even convicted criminals could have them, and before 1986 any American could get a cheap domestic machinegun if they paid thier $200 tax stamp. For a few hundreds years we had anyone and everyone getting whatever firearms they wanted with whatever record they had and things worked out just fine. People that used them wrong were hanging by a rope, and people that pulled them out on others in public risked getting shot from any direction from multiple people packing. Here is a great article that highlights how the "wild west" was actualy a safer time period than modern times even in the most dangerous types of towns at the time:
http://www.jrborden.com/DoseOfLead.htm

When anyone and everyone could and did have firearms of whatever type they could come up with we were safer and had less problems than we do now.
In fact if we got rid of gun laws, encouraged ownership, and got rid of drug laws (I don't care for drugs, but recognize just like prohibition it is the root of most organized crime) most crime would simply cease to be. Criminals would risk injury or death victimizing others, and people inclined to play with drugs would have them at regular commodity prices that did not require illegal activities to pay for, while purchasing them from legitimate companies that did not fund any organized crime just like alcohol. Yes more people would use them, yes our society might be ever so slightly less productive because of it and therefore generate less tax revenue, but much of our problems would go away.
No more organized crime, no more addicts and punks burglarizing and robbing for drug habits (which is the reason behind mosy property crimes) far less identity thefts etc. People so inclined would sit off getting high not bothering others while they wasted thier lives away. That sure beats the current situation where they find illegal ways to aquire a lot of money as predators on a daily basis.

So I am a firm believer in actualy following the constitution and letting any man do as he pleases until he directly infringes on the same rights enjoyed by another man.
 
as a mandatory qualifier for owning a firearm, i highly disagree. as a proposal for a new class in school...well, then youre on to something.

I don't think there should be any qualifier to own beyond not being a violent/sex offender or insane. As for carrying I don't disagree with the idea of a basic education class and marksmanship test requirement. I am not saying we need one, just that if you ask me it seems like a good idea. I think an elective in high school/college would be fantastic.

So I am a firm believer in actualy following the constitution and letting any man do as he pleases until he directly infringes on the same rights enjoyed by another man.

The case for preventing violent/sex (excluding public urination) offenders is that these people have already demonstrated a willing desire and ability to infringe on the rights of others.

The case for a basic firearms eduaction class in order to carry is that many people do not have the benefit of a general firearm education. Lets face it, a firearm has a very large sphere of influence, larger than most things. A momentary lapse of judgment can have tragic consequences miles away and sitting down each person that plans to carry and going over the basics of firearm safety and (legal)responsibility just corrects ignorance: a problem caused by the malignly of firearm ownership. As to the basic firearms marksmanship for CC I just think its a good idea.

I am all for encouraging gun ownership and making it easier to own a NFA or any other type of firearm.

What I don't believe is that there is no way someone can believe in the SA without being completely polarized against any control of anything firearm related. There is a middle ground and many people, even if they don't want to come out and say it, stand there. Everyone points to the slippery slope and says "thats what happens" and in general they are right. What I am saying is that if ever there was a time where the laws were not meant to simply remove firearms but to promote safe responsible ownership there are some ideas that would restrict gun ownership that I would support.
 
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As far as I'm concerned, Form 4473 should have nothing on it but a list of certain felonies that one could commit with a weapon (i.e. armed robbery, murder, attempted murder, reckless discharge of a firearm, etc) and their sentences (which should be rather harsh). Nothing more. Essentially, give the buyer a notice as to what happens if they decide to use their firearm in an ill-conceived manner, and leave it at that. Punish the people who actually commit crimes, and leave the rest of us alone.

Also, more states need to adopt CCW policies similar to Alaska and Vermont.
 
What I don't believe is that there is no way someone can believe in the SA without being completely polarized against any control of anything firearm related. There is a middle ground and many people, even if they don't want to come out and say it, stand there.

So your argument is that "shall not infringe" really only means "shall not infringe unless it is for a good reason". Now who decides what a good reason is?

People are still going to be dying from them, so further "good reasons" will continue to warrant additional restrictions.

When you say the government can prohibit some if they are a "criminal" you give them the discretion to decide who they do not want armed, which if you read the conversations surrounding the creation of the 2nd, you will realize it undoes the purpose for having it. Shall not infringe does not mean shall only infringe for good reasons, because those "good reasons" will change.

Once the very law our RKBA is based on is no longer literal, our basis for having that right is gone. This is very simple! Once any portion of the 2nd is no longer literal, legal precedent is set to redefine it. The supreme court has chosen not to hear most gun rights issues for a long time because of this.

So I think you are thinking along the lines of what you would like to see happen in a perfect world, not what does happen in law. The 2nd is either current, or it is outdated and needs to be redefined which means it can basicly be ignored and treated as nothing but a line in the sand. Now we may currently treat it as such already, but when a ruling specificly okays such treatment by supporting current ATF guidelines, or other restrictive legislation then the ability to argue a 2nd Amendment right no longer applies.

I do not get how so many people do not understand law. It is not a "slippery slope", it is our Second Amendement is valid or invalid. Checkbox yes or no, if no there is a very specific process for removing an amendment to the constitution.
If invalid a permission to keep or bears arms can be granted, however no right will exist, and permissions can be revoked or restricted at further dates as necessary. If it is a right that cannot be infringed, well then problems may occur but government must throw up its hands and let the people deal with it, which people have shown in the past to be quite capable of.

I think a right beats a privelidge.

Most nations in the world will give "upstanding citizens" the privelidge of hunting with firearms legaly. Very few will give people the privelidge of self defense with firearms in limited circumstances at home to a commoner. Even fewer a right to actualy harm others in self defense, especialy with a firearm and allowfor the storage and possession in a way that makes that practical (take Canada where self defense is legal, but storing a loaded firearm is not, and they are supposed to be unloaded and locked up by law).
The fewest yet is one that gives people a "right that shall not be infringed" to actualy keep arms for the purpose of attacking the government! That sounds crazy! Yet it was the very reason for the second. If the right is so people can use them to attack the government if necessary, doesn't it seem totaly illogical that one would then give the government the oversight in allowing or denying the sale and or possession of them?

That would makes as much sense as allowing burglars to determine what houses get security systems.

Now most of us may not actualy keep arms for that purpose, but one must still recognize that is why the right to have them exists in the first place. Not to protect from the bad among us, but to protect freedom.
Basicly the founding fathers were protecting the ability of every citizen to become "insurgents" if necessary at a moments notice by not allowing the government to have any say in keeping or bearing arms, and to encourage a mindset that the people were in charge and could wrestle back control from tyranny if necessary.
No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
-- Thomas Jefferson
More people should read the actual discussions and conversations that happened during the creation of what was the basis for our nation, and not just the end result.
 
In all fairness, he said training, not licensing. There is a HUGE difference there.

I disagree. Let's say one is required to have training in order to purchase or carry a firearm. How then does one prove at a later date that one has taken said training? Perhaps with a certificate of successful completion of training?

Tell me how this certificate is different than a license?
 
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