Antis beginning to concede defeat on AWB

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Glock-A-Roo

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http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=5720042

Guns Lobby Racks Up Legislative Gains Across U.S.
Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:25 PM ET

By Alan Elsner

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The powerful U.S. gun lobby seems poised for victory in a high profile battle to end a ban on some assault weapons and experts say it has also been piling up numerous quiet victories at the state level.

A federal ban on certain military-style semi-automatic weapons enacted in 1994 is due to expire on Sept. 13. The Republican congressional leadership, backed by the National Rifle Organization and other gun groups, seems determined to allow the law to lapse.

Gun control groups say only vigorous intervention by President Bush could change congressional minds. They concede that the chances of that happening weeks before the Nov. 2 presidential election are zero. Bush has said he would sign the extension of the law if it passed but has not intervened in the debate.

"The assault weapons ban has no chance of being extended unless President Bush gets forcefully behind it but Bush has apparently made a naked political calculation," said Jim Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety.

Gun owners make up an important part of Bush's political base. The NRA is enthusiastically backing him against Democrat John Kerry.

Earlier this month, Congress passed legislation which will allow retired and off-duty law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons even in states that do not permit them. Bush will sign the bill into law Thursday.

Gun proponents have worked hard for 15 years and with considerable success to win the right for Americans to carry concealed weapons.

In 1986, only eight states were obliged by law to issue citizens who requested them licenses to carry such weapons. That number has grown to 38, according to the NRA.

Ohio's law took effect in January. Last year alone, New Mexico, Colorado, Minnesota and Missouri, where legislators overrode a veto by Gov. Bob Holden, passed "right to carry" laws for applicants who pass a gun training course and a background check.

"QUIET REVOLUTION"

"We have seen the normalization of the idea that Americans may carry concealed weapons. It is a quiet revolution and it will bring about a certain culture change as we become accustomed to the idea of people in urban as well as rural areas carrying weapons around with them," said Robert Cottrol of the George Washington University law school.

Statistics suggest that the number of U.S. households owning firearms has stayed stable or may even have declined slightly in recent years. The data is somewhat uncertain since surveys have produced figures as high as 49 percent and as low as 36 percent.

The number of weapons in circulation continues to rise, reflecting the fact that guns are extremely durable and can be maintained in working order virtually indefinitely.

Some believe the spread of concealed weapons laws will have little practical effect.

"These 'right to carry' laws have swept much of the country and do have great symbolic significance for proponents and opponents but they are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing," said William Vizzard, a criminal justice professor at Cal State Sacramento, quoting Shakespeare's Macbeth.

Vizzard said the number of people applying for permits was relatively low and the number of people actually carrying weapons on a daily basis even lower.

In Arizona, which recently marked 10 years since passing its "right to carry" law, around 68,000 residents have active permits. The state population last year was 5.6 million. Some proponents now want to make it easier for applicants to get the permits by reducing the mandatory training hours.

The data suggests that neither the promises of gun groups that such laws would deter crime, nor the warnings of opponents that they would cause more gun accidents, have come to pass.

Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety said his group did not even bother fighting such laws.

"They are ineffective in stopping crime but they also seem to be unharmful and have not led to mass shootings the way some on the left feared," he said.

© Copyright Reuters 2004.
 
Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety said his group did not even bother fighting such laws. "They are ineffective in stopping crime but they also seem to be unharmful and have not led to mass shootings the way some on the left feared," he said.
This is a huge statement.
 
Gun control groups say only vigorous intervention by President Bush could change congressional minds. They concede that the chances of that happening weeks before the Nov. 2 presidential election are zero.

Buh-bye!
 
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Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety said his group did not even bother fighting such laws. "They are ineffective in stopping crime but they also seem to be unharmful and have not led to mass shootings the way some on the left feared," he said.
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This is a huge statement.



No doubt about that. Even the Brady Bunch has seemed to abandon its very vocal past opposition to "permit to carry" laws. They seem to have thrown in the towel in this area, but continue to work hard on the AWB and its continuation.
 
gotta love the picture with the story - young boy with an AR type rifle at a gunshow....
 
The data suggests that neither the promises of gun groups that such laws would deter crime, nor the warnings of opponents that they would cause more gun accidents, have come to pass.
The results shouldn’t matter. Even if crime increased after CCW laws were passed, we would still have a right to carry.

Our argument for carrying a concealed weapon should not be, “CCW will help deter crime, will help citizens defend themselves, will lower crime, blaa blaa blaa.†Our argument should be, “I have a natural right to carry a concealed weapon. The existence of this right is not contingent on crime statistics. Even if crime increased after CCW laws were passed, I would still have a right to carry a concealed weapon.â€
 
Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety said his group did not even bother fighting such laws. "They are ineffective in stopping crime but they also seem to be unharmful and have not led to mass shootings the way some on the left feared," he said.

This is a huge statement.

No doubt about that. Even the Brady Bunch has seemed to abandon its very vocal past opposition to "permit to carry" laws. They seem to have thrown in the towel in this area, but continue to work hard on the AWB and its continuation.

Just because Brady Bunch and anti's seem to have thrown the towel, doesn't mean we need to either.
Just remember, there are still a few states that DO NOT allow any carry whatsoever. (Like Illinois).

We are NOT FINISHED until ALL STATES allow uninhibited, lawful, carry... concealed or otherwise.
 
Just because Brady Bunch and anti's seem to have thrown the towel, doesn't mean we need to either.

Don't let your guard down It's a long way to September 14th for crap to happen. Like Yogi Bera said: It ain't over til it's over!
 
"These 'right to carry' laws have swept much of the country and do have great symbolic significance for proponents and opponents but they are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing," said William Vizzard, a criminal justice professor at Cal State Sacramento, quoting Shakespeare's Macbeth.

Oh no, my friend. They signify a great deal, and you know it. You just can't admit it to yourself.
 
Gun owners make up an important part of Bush's political base. The NRA is enthusiastically backing him against Democrat John Kerry.

Are they really? I was under the impression that NRA was withholding their endorsement until the AWB is dead and buried.
 
Molon Labe gets it. Even if every criminal in town likes to use my favorite gun for their crimes, the government does not have the right to ban a gun because they are commonly used for illegal purposes.
 
Molon Labe gets it. Even if every criminal in town likes to use my favorite gun for their crimes, the government does not have the right to ban a gun because they are commonly used for illegal purposes.

Good point. The government, especially the Feds, are not supposed to limit the freedoms of the law abiding in response to actions by criminals, especially when the govt. is failing to keep criminals behind bars and away from the law abiding, when those criminals have shown themselves to be a danger to society.

I was not insinuating in an earlier post that we should quit fighting because the anti's seem to have thrown in the towel to some extent with regards to shall issue carry. I was feeling good, if momentarily, to have pushed them back a little bit. I would still like to get to a Vermont or Alaska style system, where you just carry, with no permit slip from big brother.

I also want to see the AWB die a glorious and uneventful death. Then we can start working on making additions to the FOPA. You see, I think it is harder to try and attack anti gun laws, than to strengthen pro gun laws. By strengthening pro gun laws, we can start to nullify anti gun laws to some extent, then show how those anti gun laws have been weakened without the sky falling, and propose to do away with them all together.

I realize that it would be better from a civil rights perspective if we could get most if not all of these anti gun or gun restriction laws declared unconstitutional, but I don't see that happening realistically in the very near future. So we must continue to lobby, write letters, educate the non believers, and most importantly, get our big butts off of our couches and vote for candidates that can best help us move forward, even if it's not all the way in giant step.
 
Andrew McKelvey and Americans for Gun Safety will get around to banning AWs when the tide has turned.

They want to be seen as a moderate, common sense, safety organization right now.

Andrew was the major $ force behind the bank rolling of MMM 2000
 
Don't forget WASHINGTON, D.C. in our attempts to get CCW for the 50 states.
 
Remember, that in the "gun rights" fight, we never win, we can only lose.

The AWB going away won't affect the lives of any antis or non-gunowners.

If you're into the affected guns/magazines, you know da** well how much it's affected YOUR life - extra money, hassle, stuffing around to get the equipment you want, or doing without.

If we "win" on Sep 13, we wake up happy and go buy some cool stuff. If we lose, many of us probably have wasted a lot of money on conversion parts.

If they "win" on September 13, they get the satisfaction of curbing liberty in the US and fu**ing over some Republicans. If they lose, the only impact is in their twisted little minds.
 
Our argument for carrying a concealed weapon should not be, “CCW will help deter crime, will help citizens defend themselves, will lower crime, blaa blaa blaa.†Our argument should be, “I have a natural right to carry a concealed weapon. The existence of this right is not contingent on crime statistics. Even if crime increased after CCW laws were passed, I would still have a right to carry a concealed weapon.â€

I don't entirely agree. Even if we didn't have a right to keep and bear arms, we have a right to run our own lives, to make our own decisions, and to be held responsible only for our own actions.

Punishing one person because of fears of what some other person might do is never OK.
 
It ain't even over when it is over. September 13 is the setting of the antis time in the sun. Problem is that they are really the forces of darkness and seem to do their best work when we aren't as mindful of the shadows.

Don't get complacent just cause we scorched the vampires a little bit, we still have to drive a stake through their hearts. Metaphorically speaking of course.:D
 
It never ever ceases to amaze me.

Even in the moment of our impending victories, I see fellow gun owners spewing pessimistic poison.

We can only LOSE on the issue of gun rights?

Good Lord.......might as well turn them all in right now.

I cannot count how many times I have heard the following at a range or at a gun show or at a gun store.

"Yep, it's only a matter of time before they ban them all. They're gonna take away all our guns and there's nothing we can do about it."

Folks, we've been WINNING for the past 10 years.

That's the poing of the Reuters news service article that started this thread.

The passage of the AWB in 1994 marked the death knell for Democratic, anti-gun control of congress.

Now is the time to redouble our efforts and drive the stake through the heart of the vampires.

In ancient times, all good strategists knew that the time to unleash your most ferocious cavalry charge was right when the enemy showed signs of breaking.

Vote against all anti-gun candidates with a veangance!

Take anti-gunners shooting!

Keep spreading the word!

And please stop spreading poisonous pessimism and defeatism amongst fellow gun owners.

hillbilly
 
Even in the moment of our impending victories, I see fellow gun owners spewing pessimistic poison.

Agree 100% hillbilly. Seems like a lot of gun owners see victories as losing and battles as won as worthless battles that shouldnt have to be fought. Just because we are born in the greatest nation the world has ever known doesn't mean we don't have to fight day in and day out for our liberties. As long as there are goverments there will be people attempting to take away the liberties we enjoy it is our job to fight to keep them the best way we can. For gunowners that means supporting the NRA who helped defeat the Democrats in the '94 Congress and who have made damn sure the AWB dies its much deserved death. It also means keeping the faith.
 
Sorry about being pessimistic, but I call it as I see it. Our country is being overun by minorities and tree hugging anglos. "Overun" in the sense that they vote Democrat.
We will have the opportunity to buy our long awaited toys in September. But don't wait too long.... it'll be one of your last opportunities with a window open for just so long. Conservatism is on a decline, taking the Republicans with it, and our gun rights. The Sunsetting of this ban squeeked by because of 250 votes in Florida. If Gore would of got in, this sunset would have been dead already. The next ban will be worse then the 1994 ban. What do you mean it can't happen? Look what the states individually are doing to you! The Congress will eventually do the same to be politically correct. It doesn't matter if 20%, 30%, or 40% of the population would believe in the 2nd Amendment. It takes a majority to save your hide. In 1994 we lost our gun rights for a full 10 years because we lost by 1% of the vote in the house. (2 congressmen voting for the AWB) Think we can keep holding a majority in the future? Think again.
 
In Arizona, which recently marked 10 years since passing its "right to carry" law, around 68,000 residents have active permits. The state population last year was 5.6 million. Some proponents now want to make it easier for applicants to get the permits by reducing the mandatory training hours.

Hell yes, I hope we reduce the ridiculous Arizona training requirements. We compromised far too much when it came to carry laws here.
 
Now is not the time for pessimism. For the first time in 10 years we have a real chance of making a difference in a matter of Federal gun control. Now is not the time to dally around with idle worries. Now is the time to get active.

If we lose this battle, fine, you can say "I told you so" all you like on Sept. 14, but until then I don't want to hear it or see it. It's much better to send a fax, email, snail mail, or make a phone call.


Ok, I'll get off of my soapbox now.
 
I admit I'm pretty pessimistic, especially about the long term.

I haven't got enough money to go on any sort of gun/magazine buying spree on September 14. Indeed, I am more likely to go on some kind of *selling* spree. Right now I need some ready cash more than some of these guns.

But if a renewed/expanded AWB is still lurking around, just beyond the circle of firelight, an undead thing ceaselessly seeking a way back in, it may give me pause about trying to raise enough money to take care of a few things that have been too-long neglected.

Bush *sure* won't get reelected if the AWB is renewed. But he *might* lose even if he does let it go down. He's not much of a campaigner. Few Republicans are. Not a single real conservative is scheduled to speak at the Republican convention. They're to be kept out of sight lest they scare the "moderates" and "undecideds."

Kerry's got some big advantages going for him: literally all that 99 percent of the public knows about Kerry is that "he was a hero in Vietnam" and "He's a hunter and gun owner." They know *nothing* of his actual voting record. And the media, which is solidly in Kerry's corner, makes darned sure that's all the public knows.

And with an *ultra*, fanatically anti-gun Kerry in the White House, and for all I know Chuck Schumer as Attorney General and Hillary on the Supreme Court, things could get real bad real fast.

*I* don't see why these battles should even have to be fought myself. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights ought to be ironclad, unassailable *guarantees* of the full, free exercise of *all* our rights, *all* the time, in practice, not in theory, in deed, not in word. We shouldn't ever even have to give one minute's thought to preserving our rights from our own government's attacks. The only reason we do have to is because constitutional government was overthrown in this country long ago. Voting will never restore it. No mere election victory for whichever party will ever restore it.

So, yeah, I get pessimistic about it. Sometimes I get mad about it. But I don't have the means to do much of anything about it.

I vote. Whoopee! [Twirls finger in the air.] Look where that's gotten us.

I write letters and send e-mails and make phone calls to my elected misrepresentatives, to little or no effect.

I waste time posting on Internet message boards. *That* accomplishes a lot. :rolleyes:

Maybe, if I could afford it I'd buy some remote, semi-inaccessible piece of land where I could take walks, exercise, and practice with my guns without some representative of the government confronting me or sneaking up behind me, and build a house there that was relatively hard to spy into or intrude into, and just hunker down there and wait and see, and hope they don't come after me even there. But I can't afford anything like that.

MCB
 
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