Any 922R parts count Convictions?

[W L Johnson]

Something that keeps bugging me about 922r is the silliness of the part count (US or foreign made) regulation, I'm sure I'm not the only one here. Has anyone (an individual) ever actually been convicted for having the wrong number of US vs foreign made parts in their gun? I'll never heard of the ATF stopping people at the range and counting the parts in a gun, how would they tell US from foreign made parts anyway? Most little parts (trigger parts for example) don't have a "made in" mark

thanks

 

[Geneseo1911]

I've long wondered the same thing WLJ. I have a suspicion it is the type of thing they pile on someone who was arrested for something else, or who they suspect of doing something else wrong. Kind of like nailing mobsters for not declaring and paying taxes on their illegal activities.

It would be exceedingly difficult to prove as well. Why can't I just stamp "USA" on my stock S-12 piston? I suppose there is material analysis techniques that can determine where the steel was made.

I'm interested to see if anyone can come up with any cases, though. I haven't been able to, but I didn't look all that hard (or know where or how to look) either.

 

[W L Johnson]

I have a suspicion it is the type of thing they pile on someone who was arrested for something else,

Kind of what I was thinking too, but I would think if you were arrested for something else and they are checking your gun, then the parts count is the least of your worries at that point.

 

[3pairs12]

See I think they would arrest you for parts count first if they suspected you of something else. Just a charge to hold you while they gather evidence of a bigger crime. It seems like there was a thread about this before and nobody came up with any convictions. Could be wrong though.

 

[rbernie]

I don't know how we'd know this, since I very much doubt that there are any 'standalone' 922(r) convictions.

 

[LickitySplit]

Technically (at least IIRC), ... under 922r, it's only illegal to assemble/manufacture a noncompliant firearm.

The law states nothing about possession of a firearm with an excessive foreign made parts.

 

[W L Johnson]

Just thought of another problem, let say you buy a AK-47, for example, from a pawn shop, gun shop, etc.. and it has the wrong number of US vs foreign parts in it. Can you be legally held responsible? How would you know it has the wrong count?

922R is a perfect example of a feel good law that does nothing but make life hard for the law abiding.

 

[Sam1911]

let say you buy a AK-47, ... and it has the wrong number of US vs foreign parts in it. Can you be legally held responsible?

Read post 5.

-Sam

 

[highorder]

In the same vein, when's the last time someone got busted at the range for something as obvious as a non-registered SBR? Who is wandering around the range to see if your FH is permanently attached on that 14.5" M4 upper?...

What non-fed LEO knows enough to ask about the NFA paperwork you need to keep with your 10" AR?
Are local LEO even in a position to investigate/enforce NFA laws?

Are these questions better as a new thread, or can we toss them on this pile?

 

[CoRoMo]

any 'standalone' 922(r) convictions.

Doubtful, unless some particular nut was on the ATF's radar for miscellaneous mischief and when forced to investigate or search/seize his stuff, all that was found was that one minor violation.

I don't see that happening anyway because is the agency actually going to disassemble the gun in question and count up the USA parts? No.

 

[Sam1911]

In the same vein, when's the last time someone got busted at the range for something as obvious as a non-registered SBR? Who is wandering around the range to see if your FH is permanently attached on that 14.5" M4 upper?...

Wow! That's not something I'd fool around with AT ALL! Yes, people do go to prison for unregistered Title II items.

What non-fed LEO knows enough to ask about the NFA paperwork you need to keep with your 10" AR?

Maybe not all, but I think most would recognize something that looked like a "sawed off shotgun" or rifle. I wouldn't chance that, at all!

Are local LEO even in a position to investigate/enforce NFA laws?

Yes. They are charged with enforcing all federal laws, and many states also have similar laws of their own.

-Sam

 

[highorder]

Easy Sam, I'm not doing it, never seen someone do it, and don't reccomend anyone do it.



But my questions still stand.

Yes, people do go to prison for unregistered Title II items.

[strike]I'll look around; do you have any handy citations/examples?[/strike]

[edited; it does happen though a quick search shows that many of the convicted were engaged in other criminal activity. I fully understand that an NFA violation is a bona fide crime in its own right, but for the purposes of my question I was wondering about otherwise law abiding persons getting hit for NFA violations only.]

Thanks.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Nobody has ever been convicted of this charge. I side with the other people in that I believe it's a "pile-on" charge. I bet the first case of a sole 922(r) violation going to court, gets 922(r) declared worthless and void.

 

[WardenWolf]

The reason it's inherently a stack-on charge is because the authorities have to have first seized your weapon to disassemble and examine it in that detail. It's not something you can tell just by looking at it from the outside, as various internal parts may have been replaced. Take my Saiga .223, for example. Externally, it's completely Russian and Romanian, with the exception of the magazine. Internally, enough parts have been replaced to bring it well within compliance.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

What non-fed LEO knows enough to ask about the NFA paperwork you need to keep with your 10" AR?
Are local LEO even in a position to investigate/enforce NFA laws?

Not a whole lot. Last time I applied for a handgun permit I had to explain parts of the process to the cop. lol.

 

[Sam1911]

The reason it's inherently a stack-on charge is because the authorities have to have first seized your weapon to disassemble and examine it in that detail. It's not something you can tell just by looking at it from the outside, as various internal parts may have been replaced. Take my Saiga .223, for example. Externally, it's completely Russian and Romanian, with the exception of the magazine. Internally, enough parts have been replaced to bring it well within compliance.

And then they have to prove that YOU assembled it that way.

-Sam

 

[Shadow 7D]

No, You have to prove to the court that your were in compliance to the best of your knowledge, and that will take a good lawyer, all the while the feds are looking for more stuff to pile on. Best not to walk around with your pants down.

 

[CapnMac]

Probably this is like so many of the federal stuff, USC and CFR both, that we citizens are burdened with.

Like the myriad agricultural regs that are violated by indiviuals, but only prosecuted against giant cormporations. (And, then only those caught by an ag inspector which then also gets an AUSA's attention.)

Each of us has a burden, the current estimate is 9-12,000 ordinaces, laws, rules, regulations, et al. to be knowledgable of and in compliance. Right down the line, Fed, State, Country, City--and, as we all know, ignorance is no excuse.

Part of this has to be how we have let the 9th & 10th slip by, so that wwe have lawmakers who only have one tool in their belt. And, if all you have is a hammer, every thing looks like nails (even screws, rivets, button, zippers, etc.)

 

[HankB]

It would be exceedingly difficult to prove as well. Why can't I just stamp "USA" on my stock S-12 piston? I suppose there is material analysis techniques that can determine where the steel was made.

And then, wouldn't they have to prove that you, personally, did the "USA" stamping on a part that you knew was foreign made, and then you, personally, installed it with the intent to deceive?

I tend to agree, this is a "pile on' type of charge when they have someone on something else.

(BTW, I have heard of convictions for unlicensed SBRs, sawed-off shotguns, and suppressors, but those violations are far less subtle than a parts count violation.)

 

[LickitySplit]

And then, wouldn't they have to prove that you, personally, did the "USA" stamping on a part that you knew was foreign made, and then you, personally, installed it with the intent to deceive?

There's also the "plausible denial" defense given that there is no legal requirement that USA manufactured parts have to be stamped as such.

Vendors only do it as a sign of good faith (take it for what it's worth/let the buyer beware).

As an example... I have a few AK muzzle brakes that came with parts kits I ordered.

I did the prudent/CYA thing and installed US (stamped), manufactured ones on my builds.

Placing them side by side, I couldn't tell the difference.

Perhaps a metallurgist, tool marks examiner or hardcore AK collector can spot a non compliant part, but myself (and probably %99.9 of gun owners), sure as hell can't.

 

[Speedo66]

In the same vein, when's the last time someone got busted at the range for something as obvious as a non-registered SBR? Who is wandering around the range to see if your FH is permanently attached on that 14.5" M4 upper?...

What non-fed LEO knows enough to ask about the NFA paperwork you need to keep with your 10" AR?
Are local LEO even in a position to investigate/enforce NFA laws?

Are these questions better as a new thread, or can we toss them on this pile?

Some of the Fed's regulations are also laws in certain state, i.e., silencers, short barrels, etc. And yes, a smart cop would know a silencer or short barrel if he saw one.

Even flash hiders are illegal in some states, post 1994 production.

Anybody have enough money and guts that they feel like they want to be the test case?

 

[Cosmoline]

The part count law is aimed at manufacturers and importers. It's very poorly worded though and it's theoretically possible that it might be applies against an individual. However it's not in the same universe as the core NFA rules about SBR's, full autos and the like. Those ARE aimed at individuals and many people ARE arrested for those violations all the time.

 

[PTK]

Some interesting points regarding NFA items have been raised in this thread, regardless of 922(r).

Though many people are arrested and convicted of violating the NFA, many, many, MANY folks with legally stamped items (or not) are never even asked for proof of ownership - an example would be whenever I go to ranges with my NFA items. Not one soul asks me to prove I legally own my SBS 12ga double-barreled "pistol", no one asks about the 40mm grenade launcher, etc.

That includes cops - I've had police at the various outdoor ranges literally walk up to me, ask what in the world I was shooting, then ask if they could maybe shoot it too. Never been asked for paperwork, never been asked for registration, nothing. The ONLY time I had to prove ownership was when I had NFA items stolen.

My thinking is that MOST NFA violations that result in convictions only happened due to other things going on - robbery with an NFA item, someone's pulled over for reckless driving and they have a short shotgun in the truck, etc. I truly think that's the case for most violations, and searching through case law for years has shown that to be true - same goes for 922(r) - I see non-compliant guns (factory Saiga-12s for sale with the 12rd mag inserted) all the time at gun stores. No one cares - doesn't mean it's legal, though!

 

[razorback2003]

Possibly Add On

This could be an add on used on top of other federal offenses/charges that fed prosecutors pull on major criminals....then again if it is assembling...kind of hard because most do not build their own firearms.

Most firearms laws are used as add ons to other violations...think about misdemeanor carrying a weapon/concealed weapon violations. You rarely hear about someone just charged with that. Usually it is someone who got arrested for drugs, stolen firearm, speeding, DWI, and then a carrying a weapon/illegal concealed weapon violation in the mix. A lot of the weapons violations are found out in the middle of other violations and can't be any different than fed offenses...the NFA deal especially...although I wouldn't want to push my luck to save $200 or $5 tax stamps...depending on the weapon choice. The general rule is....if you aren't acting like a fool.......such as driving down the road smoking pot with a bag of dope in the floor out in the open...how will anyone find out you have a cut down shotgun in the trunk of your car...if you drive normal and keep your mouth shut??? That is why you never hear about just plain weapons offenses that much. Joe down the street who was given his buddy's SBS/SBR doesn't get caught b/c he doesn't act like an idiot...he keeps quiet and puts it in his safe or closet.

 

[panoz77]

I think that it would be more of a secondary charge if you ever got yourself into some trouble. The burden would be on the govt to prove that you were the "assembler" of the gun in the non-compliant configuration, which IMO would be difficult for the govt to prove beyond reasonable doubt. That being said, for the few bucks it takes, I make sure my guns are 922r compliant.