Any good reason (in terms of gun value) to not Cerakote this High-Power?

[Hasaf]

As seen in the pictures, I have an old High-Power. On the left side of the slide it has the words "BROWNING - FN 9MM HP INGLIS, CANADA." On the right side it has the same serial number on the frame, slide, and barrel.Above the serial number on the barrel is a set of crossed flags, I would associate them with the Signal Corps.

It is "blued" with a black substance that looks like paint and is heavily worn in many places. The hammer looks like it has a Roman "IL" stamped in it. It has fixed (machined into the slide) sights.

I happen to like the colour combo on my Kimber Desert Night (tan frame, black slide). I am thinking of doing the same with this High-Power. I cannot imagine that this gun has any "collection" value; however, I think it is best to ask first. So, I am asking. Is there any good reason (in terms of gun value) not to Cerakote this High-Power?

 

[Klint Beastwood]

I can’t tell because of the picture lighting but is the front sight staked or notched?

 

[milemaker13]

I think your probably right about its lacking collector value ( but I don't really know).
What I am interested in is the cerakote job. There is a little start up shop here in Lombard IL called Lebreux Tactical. The owner Adam is a terribly nice guy. He does the cerakote and a few others.
I'd really like to try him out (never had this kind of thing done) but can't figure out what I'd ever want color coated.
Now, what you have is a great candidate. Good gun, worn finish, previous botched paint job...
Question: Will the cerakote cover and make unreadable the markings?

Also, what do you expect to pay for such a job?

 

[Hasaf]

I can’t tell because of the picture lighting but is the front sight staked or notched?

It looks to me as if it is machined right into the slide. How would I tell?

 

[Mn Fats]

It looks to me as if it is machined right into the slide. How would I tell?

Look for a seam.

 

[Browning]

I believe that's the original paint so I wouldn't Cerakote it.

 

[DT Guy]

This was a rough Izzy 'Frankengun' (mixed generations slide and frame) that I Cerakoted:

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Sounds like it’s staked. They might have to kote it too, or they have to pull it off. It would have to be replaced. Then again I’m not the best cerakoter by far.
Something to consider nonetheless

 

[Browning]

From what I understand during WWII the British were lucky to escape with their lives at Dunkirk. So they left many of their weapons behind.

Some key Beligian engineers from FN were also lucky to escape when their country was overrun by the German war machine. They took the plans for the FN GP-35 with them. The Canadians managed to get the Canadian Inglis High Powers in Canadian and British holsters by 1943 and '44.

The British were largely responsible for spraying many of their pistols that black color.

The Israelis painted their pistols as well and you can see that from the surplus High Powers being sold on the net these days as that's mostly where they're from, but from what I understand those were mostly FN contract pistols that they purchased in the 1950's and 60's. I don't believe that the Israelis had many Canadian Inglis's (I could be incorrect on this).

So to me that pistol possibly has some history and it's scarred up appearance is somewhat appealing.

Personally I'd try to find out a bit more about it before I committed to refinishing it.

Obviously it's your pistol though and you can do what you wish. I'm just a stranger on the net and my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

If it turns out to be a mismatch of parts though then I'd have way fewer qualms about refinishing the pistol.

 

[milemaker13]

Very interesting info Browning. Didn't realize the paint could be an original feature. Thank you.

 

[Browning]

Very interesting info Browning. Didn't realize the paint could be an original feature. Thank you.

Well...depends on how you term 'original'. I don't believe that the Canadians painted their pistols. I believe that this was done once they entered British service.

Then again they also have been painted at some point during their service since the parkarizing was wearing off by that point and they were being reworked before re-entering the arsenal pool.

At any rate I do know that quite a few British weapons were painted black and that they used the Inglis for a really long time.

Then again it could have been a one off that the Israelis had since they painted them as well. Before and during their war in 1948 they were buying weapons from all over the globe.

 

[Monac]

Just in case Browning did not make it clear, Hasaf, your gun is not an FN High Power. It is an Inglis High Power, made in Canada by the John Inglis Company during the Second World War. The Canadians tooled up to make High Powers with a lot of help from the escaped FN engineers that Browning mentions. Originally, they manufactured a version of the gun with adjustable sights and a detachable shoulder stock for the Chinese. After the Chinese order was filled, they began making your version of the pistol for the British, who very much wanted a better pistol than the Enfield 380 revolver for their Commandos and parachute troops, IIRC. After the war ended, a number of Commonwealth countries made the Inglis High Power their standard pistol, and they were in service for many years.

The Indian Ordnance Factory still makes a copy of the Inglis today.

I do not know what, if any, collector's value Hasaf's pistol has. But it is different from, and scarcer than, an ordinary FN High Power. It is also over 70 years old.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Well...depends on how you term 'original'. I don't believe that the Canadians painted their pistols. I believe that this was done once they entered British service.

Then again they also have been painted at some point during their service since the parkarizing was wearing off by that point and they were being reworked before re-entering the arsenal pool.

At any rate I do know that quite a few British weapons were painted black and that they used the Inglis for a really long time.

Then again it could have been a one off that the Israelis had since they painted them as well. Before and during their war in 1948 they were buying weapons from all over the globe.

The Inglis HPs were paint-over-park, the standard finish. Don't paint it, in its current condition they command a round $800 to a grand.

Above the serial number on the barrel is a set of crossed flags, I would associate them with the Signal Corps.

Dominion of Canada Proof marks.

And, on the frame there should be:


More information of the Inglis HP

 

[Browning]

The Inglis HPs were paint-over-park, the standard finish.

I'm no expert, but the vast majority of the Inglis's that I've seen have all been parkarized with no paint. Almost all former Canadian service.

The few that I've seen (mostly at Jackson Armory in Dallas) that have been painted were all former British army guns. So that kind of squared with what I was reading.

I dunno. :Shrug

My sentiments were more along the lines of 'look before you leap'. Once done, it can't be undone.

 

[larryh1108]

I doubt your Inglis is worth $800 as mentioned. It is not the more desirable one with the tangent sights and slot in the back strap to accept the arm brace.
The original finish is an expoxy type paint. It was durable and pretty ugly but it did it's job.
I have refinished many of these Hi Powers. They turn out nice and shoot well. They are a nice, surplus gun.
The front sight is similar to a dovetail cut. I believe I have a spare in my parts collection. I have most of the spare parts from the 6 Inglis I rebuilt a few years ago.

 

[lysanderxiii]

I doubt your Inglis is worth $800 as mentioned. It is not the more desirable one with the tangent sights and slot in the back strap to accept the arm brace.
The original finish is an expoxy type paint. It was durable and pretty ugly but it did it's job.
I have refinished many of these Hi Powers. They turn out nice and shoot well. They are a nice, surplus gun.
The front sight is similar to a dovetail cut. I believe I have a spare in my parts collection. I have most of the spare parts from the 6 Inglis I rebuilt a few years ago.

That estimate is based on the current and past GB listings....YMMV.

 

[Danoobie]

Just in case Browning did not make it clear, Hasaf, your gun is not an FN High Power. It is an Inglis High Power, made in Canada by the John Inglis Company during the Second World War. The Canadians tooled up to make High Powers with a lot of help from the escaped FN engineers that Browning mentions. Originally, they manufactured a version of the gun with adjustable sights and a detachable shoulder stock for the Chinese. After the Chinese order was filled, they began making your version of the pistol for the British, who very much wanted a better pistol than the Enfield 380 revolver for their Commandos and parachute troops, IIRC. After the war ended, a number of Commonwealth countries made the Inglis High Power their standard pistol, and they were in service for many years.

The Indian Ordnance Factory still makes a copy of the Inglis today.

I do not know what, if any, collector's value Hasaf's pistol has. But it is different from, and scarcer than, an ordinary FN High Power. It is also over 70 years old.

Not likely you would "destroy history " by cerakoting it, but that it is a war pistol. There were plenty made. You might degrade it's value. OTOH, if it's only a shooter, to you,
you may keep it from rusting up, and like it better, if you paint it.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I doubt your Inglis is worth $800 as mentioned. It is not the more desirable one with the tangent sights and slot in the back strap to accept the arm brace.
The original finish is an expoxy type paint. It was durable and pretty ugly but it did it's job.
I have refinished many of these Hi Powers. They turn out nice and shoot well. They are a nice, surplus gun.
The front sight is similar to a dovetail cut. I believe I have a spare in my parts collection. I have most of the spare parts from the 6 Inglis I rebuilt a few years ago.

Agree with Larry. Unless its a tangent-sight model, these don't command any higher prices than any decent HiPower. My buddy had one of these on the shelf at his LGS for $650 (in somewhat better condition), while FN commercial models sold left and right of it for $750.
So I would say do it if it will make you happier with your gun. It will still be a high quality, historically interesting, but now attractive gun.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Kote it, brah.

FDE or Yote Brown.

 

[johnmcl]

I have a BHP that I had cerakoted in flat black. I love it, and it looks like Darth Vader's BHP. Do it and don't look back.

 

[WVsig]

From what I understand during WWII the British were lucky to escape with their lives at Dunkirk. So they left many of their weapons behind.

Some key Beligian engineers from FN were also lucky to escape when their country was overrun by the German war machine. They took the plans for the FN GP-35 with them. The Canadians managed to get the Canadian Inglis High Powers in Canadian and British holsters by 1943 and '44.

I believe that some of this info is incorrect. The Beligian engineers did not take the plans for the GP-35 with them when they abandoned the plant in Liege. Saive the head designer at FN, and IMHO the true designer of what we call the BHP, reconstructed the blueprints for the GP-35 from memory with the help of the British. Saive was trying to help the British produce the pistol. There was a dispute between the Brits, FN, Canada and China. There was a lot of politics involved.

FN had an existing contract with China IIRC. The Chinese bought 5,000 GP-35s prior to the war and then asked for 200,000 more. FN needed the money that this contract would provide. They wanted to use the Canadians and Inglis to manufacture them but they did not have the plans. FN was also very worried about the loss of future revenue if the BHPs production was not controlled. The Brits wanted to produce and use the GP-35 and had Saive working on the blueprints. Canada, Browning Arms and FN tried to get the Brits to let Saive come to Canada with his from memory blue prints to start production for the Chinese contract and the Canadians. The Brits would not allow Saive to leave.

They eventually came to an agreement after Saive completed the blueprints. The Brits gave the plans to Canada in exchange for pistols which the Canadians also used and they also produced pistols for the Chinese contract. FN got paid a royalty and the contract was only for wartime production. Some of these details are fuzzy in my mind but are all documented in R Blake Stevens book on the BHP.

So my long and labored point is that Saive did not leave Liege with the GP-35 blueprints and it was not a straight line into British and Canadian holsters. If it had not been for FN and the existing Chinese contract the Inglis BHP might not have ever existed.

To the OP I would personally not refinish that gun. It will certainly not add to its value and without more detail about the gun I cannot determine if it would harm its value. Anyone telling you otherwise based on the info provided in this thread is guessing at best. Refinishing it will not make it shoot better. It will not help its longevity or its historical significance. That said its your gun so proceed as you see fit.

 

[entropy]

It's your gun, but I recommend not refinishing it.

 

[Browning]

@WVsig

The history of the Inglis has been told a few different ways and it just depends on the site or book how it's told.

• Saive reproduced the plans once in England.

• Saive escaped from Belgium with the plans for the GP-35.

• FN managed to send the plans somehow once the war was on.

In Small Arms of the World by Smith he has it that Saive escaped to England with the plans in tow, so that's what I went with.

Here they have it that that FN sent the information after the war was on.

As Germany captured Belgium in 1940, Saive fled and would end up going to London. The FN manufacturing plant sent information on producing the Browning Hi Power to Britain, which then sent the plans to Canada. World War II had led to multiple versions of the Browning Hi Power being produced, and by those on both sides.

https://sofrep.com/87024/john-moses-brownings-pistol-story-browning-hi-power/

I'm not sure if it's even known which version is actually correct unless Saive actually had an authenticated diary or journal of some kind where he wrote down what actually happened.

The Chinese contract which ended up being canceled and largely undelivered was important in the story, but from what I understand the British were looking around for something better to arm their SOF troops and the Inglis might have ended up being produced with or without the Chinese involvement.

It's important to remember that the Chinese weren't actually paying for their own arms, the Canadians were under their version of the Lend Lease program.

By the time the Inglis was ready to go the Chinese were largely fighting a civil war amongst themselves and had mostly ceased fighting against the Japanese. So the Inglis was distributed to Canadian and British troops where it would actually do some good in the war effort.

 

[Comrade Mike]

That hi power would not be particularly valuable. I would feel okay Cerakoting it.

 

[WVsig]

@WVsig

The history of the Inglis has been told a few different ways and it just depends on the site or book how it's told.

• Saive reproduced the plans once in England.

• Saive escaped from Belgium with the plans for the GP-35.

• FN managed to send the plans somehow once the war was on.

In Small Arms of the World by Smith he has it that Saive escaped to England with the plans in tow, so that's what I went with.

Here they have it that that FN sent the information after the war was on.



https://sofrep.com/87024/john-moses-brownings-pistol-story-browning-hi-power/

I'm not sure if it's even known which version is actually correct unless Saive actually had an authenticated diary or journal of some kind where he wrote down what actually happened.

The Chinese contract which ended up being canceled and largely undelivered was important in the story, but from what I understand the British were looking around for something better to arm their SOF troops and the Inglis might have ended up being produced with or without the Chinese involvement.

It's important to remember that the Chinese weren't actually paying for their own arms, the Canadians were under their version of the Lend Lease program.

By the time the Inglis was ready to go the Chinese were largely fighting a civil war amongst themselves and had mostly ceased fighting against the Japanese. So the Inglis was distributed to Canadian and British troops where it would actually do some good in the war effort.

I suggest you read R Blake Stevens Inglis Diamond and The Browning High Power Pistol. The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol

Most people consider this The Browning High Power Pistol and The FN Browning Pistols by Anthony Vanderlinden as the definitive books on the history of the BHP. IIRC both tell the same story. Saive did not leave Liege with the plans. Now these two books also have some mistakes and gaps in their history but taken together they tell an authoritative narrative of the BHP. They are both well researched and documented. They both had access to primary source materials from both FN Herstal and the Browning Family and the Browing Museum.

I am not sure who wrote the Sofrep article but they are certainly not in the same level of credibility as Stevens and Vanderlinden. It looks to be that it is nothing more than a blog site. If you know anything about the history of the BHP and its development you would not site that article. It is full of all of the classic myths about the JMB's work on the BHP. For example Saive was not JMBs assistant. JMB did not sell the 1911 design to Colt. The author is ignorant of the contractual arrangement between Colt, FN and the independent contractor JMB. JMB was not an employee of FN Herstal. That is just a few of the errors in the article that I saw from a quick glance. The article does not even site its sources.

The Smith book you reference is a general book about small arms and while it maybe a good read it is not an in depth work on the BHP or FN handguns like the other 2 I have mentioned. So I will go with Blake and Vanderlinden over your sources.