Any home based FFL's care to answer a few questions?

[dogtown tom]

That was told to me by ATF.

You really can't expect me to respond to your question without knowing the particulars of each case.

You should never take a verbal response from ATF as gospel. Ask for the citation to Federal law or the appropriate ATF regulation.
It shouldn't take you more than a few minutes of Googling to find out that "commercial zoning" is not nor has it ever been a requirement by ATF.

 

[dogtown tom]

Two ways I can think of. They were "grandfathered" before it was zoned residential, Or they did like my neighbor did during the Clinton years, he had his public hours at his father's business and did all the physical transfers there.

ATF merely requires that the licensed premises and the business be in compliance with ALL federal, state and local laws......including zoning and HOA restrictions.

If your neighbor was doing transfers at his fathers business then that business would have been the licensed premises. If your home is your licensed premises you can't do business at your Uncle Bob's, the city park or in the parking lot at Wal Mart. A licensee can only conduct business at two locations: 1. his licensed premises and 2. a gun show or other special event.

 

[dogtown tom]

Another obstacle is getting it approved by local law enforcement.

Uh, no.
While the local chief law enforcement officer gets a copy of the Form 7 "application for a Federal Firearms License", there is no "approval" by him.

I had to go through the local sheriff. No problem with a class 1 license. However, He will not sign off on a suppressor. You have to form a trust for a suppressor.

I think you are confusing a Federal Firearms License with a Form1/4 for acquiring or making an NFA firearm.
The "signoff" on NFA firearms disappeared over a year ago. Only notification (a copy of the From1/4) to your chief law enforcement officer is required and that can be the State Attorney General or State Police......you don't have to tell the local sheriff anything.

 

[il.bill]

Again, nonsense.
There is no ATF regulation that requires "posted business hours". You are confusing "posted business hours" ( a sign showing your hours) with the Application for a Federal Firearms License Question 12. "Hours of Operation and/or Availability of Business/Activity". What follows in parenthesis "(please provide at least one hour in which you can be contacted by ATF personnel)" pretty much is the reason why ATF asks that question........it's when ATF can perform a compliance inspection or call you regarding firearm traces. It in no way, shape or form is "posted" nor is it the same as the business hours you are open to the public.

...

Guess I misinterpreted that part of the application.

When the two ATF folks sat down with me for the interview at my place of business, they explained that the hours I 'listed' (yikes, not posted!) on my application were needed for two purposes. First, those would be the times when I could be liable for an unscheduled / unannounced visit by the ATF for a compliance inspection. Second, those days were to be used to determine whether a Form 3310.4 would be required for multiple handgun transfers to an unlicensed individual within five consecutive business days.

But, that was only a verbal information exchange with the ATF, so I would not be surprised to have dogtown tom (after all, he does pretty much know it all) help with a correction to both of those issues.

 

[22-rimfire]

As I see it, the big insurance issue is not theft - it is liability.

If someone buys a firearm from your business (an 01FFL will only be approved to a dealer engaged in the business of selling / transferring firearms) and then it blows up in someone's hand for whatever reason, you would certainly want a liability insurance policy for your own financial protection. Sure, the manufacturer will be sued, but so will the seller of the firearm.

And most business liability policies do not cover the cost of litigation, only the payout. Something to consider.

The zoning issue is probably the most critical as getting the tax ID, business license is pretty easy.

 

[GRIZ22]

Wrong.
Many locales allow for a "home based business". In fact there are MORE home based FFL's than those in a retail commercial storefront.



True.


Uh, no.
While "new" is a condition you need to be aware that nearly 100% of firearms are test fired at the manufacturer. Some will even enclose a fired case.




Reread what you wrote and see if that makes any sense.

"Home based business" denotes dual usage. Residential and commercial. Your state, county, town has its own interpretations.

Test firing at a factory doesn't count. Just like new cars have a few miles on them and can be sold as new because they have never had a registered owner.

Yes, I have bought new unfired guns from private individuals. Having an owner other than a manufacturer or dealer makes them used. Yes just like cars. I may have not wrote it the way yout have but it makes sense.

 

[dogtown tom]

"Home based business" denotes dual usage. Residential and commercial. Your state, county, town has its own interpretations.

Then why would you write "If not zoned for commercial you won't get your FFL." That is clearly wrong.

Test firing at a factory doesn't count. Just like new cars have a few miles on them and can be sold as new because they have never had a registered owner.

Again, then why would you write "A new gun us unfired" ? Sit at my dining room table for a week and you'll encounter at least two buyers who are horrified to learn that someone has not only touched their gun, but that it was fired at the factory and the factory didn't bother cleaning it after they test fired it.

Yes, I have bought new unfired guns from private individuals. Having an owner other than a manufacturer or dealer makes them used. Yes just like cars. I may have not wrote it the way yout have but it makes sense.

From your own definition you didn't buy "new unfired guns from private individuals"......you bought USED unfired guns.

 

[GRIZ22]

Then why would you write "If not zoned for commercial you won't get your FFL." That is clearly wrong.




Again, then why would you write "A new gun us unfired" ? Sit at my dining room table for a week and you'll encounter at least two buyers who are horrified to learn that someone has not only touched their gun, but that it was fired at the factory and the factory didn't bother cleaning it after they test fired it.



From your own definition you didn't buy "new unfired guns from private individuals"......you bought USED unfired guns.

Where I live there are areas zoned residential only. You could not conduct a home based business from that area. I know someone who was denied a FFL because he lived in one.

To many of us a new gun is unfired other than factory test firing. You may have a different definition.

I could have said, "I have bought guns from people who were not dealers. They had never been fired other than factory test firing. To me and others these are considered used guns."

You certainly have a lot of time on your hands wanting to bicker over how I wrote things. If you want to continue this do so by PM.

 

[CapnMac]

Nope. The zonings were established before the houses the FFLs now occupy were even constructed.

Zoning violations occur all the time.
(That would be things like businesses; mother-in-law apartments; illegal rental property; illegal motor homw & travel trailer connections and the like.)
There are just not enough (thankfully) enough Code enforcement people out there to catch every violation.
So, violations tend to stand until a neighbor complains or emergency services are required.

Prescriptive Zoning is a particularly poor way to ensure compliance with rather arbitrary rules and behaviors. Yet, almost all of our cities are addicted to it.
With HOA being even more so (but, those really appeal to tinpot martinets with delusions of grandeur).

 

[strambo]

Another consideration, if you run your business out of a separate structure like a detached garage or shop, your homeowners insurance policy probably would exclude any damage to that structure whether the damage was business related or not and whether the business is part time or even profitable.

So, you pocket a grand/year for all this hassle, a storm does $30k in damage to your shop that is 90% personal use and 10% used to run a few transfers and sales and the damage is 100% excluded due to the business use. Doh!

So yes, get the proper insurance coverage(s).

 

[9MMare]

Seems like a conflict of interest among a group of people who are super-conscientious about home security and keeping a low profile. People who often say they never even let strangers onto their property or discourage it or even resist opening the door to strangers and are packing every time they do.

I'm not saying those things are wrong...just seem like a conflict. And you really wouldnt know who you were opening your door to (unless they were already acquaintances).

 

[hdwhit]

CapnMac wrote:
With HOA being even more so...

All of those residential zoned areas I referred to are also within HOAs (with one exception), but I have no idea what the HOA covenants say about home-based businesses nor did I make any representation as to whether such businesses were in conformity with those covenants .

My reply was to those asserting 1) the ATF would deny an FFL to someone unless they were located in an area zoned commercial and 2) when that assertion was debunked then tried to salvage their argument by suggesting - without having any idea what they were saying - that the areas were zoned residential after the fact, which they were not. I know this because I attended the P&Z meetings where the zoning of the properties was decided long before anything was built upon the land.

Finally, I made no representation as to whether or not the use was consistent with the zoning or was simply being "winked at" by the city.

 

[Decoy80]

First I'd like to say whew what a read you have created by asking for wisdom.
I wish all the best to everyone this is the right place for you to broach the subject.
I'm taking the road now best wishes to all and good luck.

 

[Sam1911]

You certainly have a lot of time on your hands wanting to bicker over how I wrote things.

I'm going to respond to this because it is a very illustrative moment for everyone reading and participating. YES, isn't it so annoying when people jump all over us for using the wrong word, or nit picking that we didn't explain something completely, or were just a little bit wrong, or used a common short hand when a full explanation would have taken twice as long to type, etc., etc.?


Well, here's the thing: When someone's asking about the law, or about how a federal enforcement agency works, or how nit-picky things like zoning regulations affect home businesses, there is NO POINT in writing if you aren't going to be BOORISHLY precise. ANNOYINGLY exact. PEDANTICALLY clear. That trips people up because we all want to be conversational and write like we speak -- in generalities, and easy, abbreviated, and a "y'all know what I meant..." relaxed way.

But the people we're speaking to on an online forum aren't your next door neighbors, they don't "know what y'all meant" and they might actually need the details that you're leaving out of the conversation. Or that you don't know for sure, yourself.

We all complain about all the "FUD" (fear, uncertainty, and doubt), and all the stupid misinformation morons spew all over the "Errornet." But if you answer a question imprecisely or sloppily, or you toss out what you THINK you thought you knew but didn't go check up on, you're just as guilty as those other morons!

And if you're corrected, say "Thank You." Don't act petulant and whine. Man up and thank the person who just fixed your error.

 

[Flechette]

I know that in the 90's the ATF ran a bunch of small FFL businesses out of business if they did not have a store front. The real reason was that they wanted less supply sources so they could control the supply of firearms to the people.

Another note, they put a clause in the FFL agreement basically waiving your Fourth Amendment rights; they can come and inspect at any time without a warrant.

Things may have changed since the Clinton years but I don't think that the ATF got any friendlier.

 

[Theohazard]

I know that in the 90's the ATF ran a bunch of small FFL businesses out of business if they did not have a store front. The real reason was that they wanted less supply sources so they could control the supply of firearms to the people.

Another note, they put a clause in the FFL agreement basically waiving your Fourth Amendment rights; they can come and inspect at any time without a warrant.

OK, this is getting ridiculous. People who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and have obviously never had an FFL keep posting terrible information. Please stop.

 

[Sam1911]

I know that in the 90's the ATF ran a bunch of small FFL businesses out of business if they did not have a store front. The real reason was that they wanted less supply sources so they could control the supply of firearms to the people.

Another note, they put a clause in the FFL agreement basically waiving your Fourth Amendment rights; they can come and inspect at any time without a warrant.

Things may have changed since the Clinton years but I don't think that the ATF got any friendlier.

See ... it's not every day when someone follows up a post about a problem (Post 39) with an immediate reply exhibiting THAT EXACT PROBLEM (Post 40).

Please don't post what you think you thought you knew, especially if there's a chance that you're going to be wrong on all fronts. It just spreads the worst of the online malaise of fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

 

[chiggerbyt]

" your FFL allows you to do business at two locations......your licensed premises and at a gun show or special event."

There is a lesser known ability to transfer other than these two locations. NON over the counter transfers >
https://www.atf.gov/file/5396/download

 

[luzyfuerza]

Chiggerbyt, I'd never heard of that procedure...thanks for posting the link.

Now this question: do you know if a resident carry permit from a state whose permits qualify "as an alternative to the background check requirements of the Brady law" represent a "valid alternate permit" under this procedure?

 

[dogtown tom]

There is a lesser known ability to transfer other than these two locations. NON over the counter transfers >
https://www.atf.gov/file/5396/download

Well, no it isn't.
A licensee is only allowed to conduct business from his licensed premises or at a gun show/special event. There is NO OTHER location that the licensee can use.
A "non over the counter" transfer ISN'T A LOCATION, but a type of transaction. It requires different documentation and is for buyer/transferees WHO DO NOT APPEAR at the licensees premises. If you read that document you'll know the procedure and the restrictions.

Non over the counter transactions are most common in rural Alaska, where a resident may buy his firearm via mail order and have it delivered to him by a weekly/monthly mail drop.

 

[dogtown tom]

I know that in the 90's the ATF ran a bunch of small FFL businesses out of business if they did not have a store front.

Laughingly false.

The real reason was that they wanted less supply sources so they could control the supply of firearms to the people.

Crazy talk, and still false.

Another note, they put a clause in the FFL agreement basically waiving your Fourth Amendment rights; they can come and inspect at any time without a warrant.

Uh, no. The FOPA of 1986 CLEARLY prohibits more than one compliance inspection per year. ATF compliance inspections are limited by Federal law to an inspection of the licensees bound book, inventory and multiple sale forms............ANYTHING ELSE REQUIRES A SEARCH WARRANT based on probable cause that the licensee ahs committed a crime and it must be signed by a judge.

Things may have changed since the Clinton years but I don't think that the ATF got any friendlier.

Friendly or not you are spreading nonsense.

 

[chiggerbyt]

[QUOTE="dogtown tom,

"Non over the counter transactions are most common in rural Alaska, where a resident may buy his firearm via mail order and have it delivered to him by a weekly/monthly mail drop.[/QUOTE]
Interesting Tom. I don't see this scenario anywhere in the document. Perhaps it's contained somewhere else?

 

[larryh1108]

Chiggerbyt, I'd never heard of that procedure...thanks for posting the link.

Now this question: do you know if a resident carry permit from a state whose permits qualify "as an alternative to the background check requirements of the Brady law" represent a "valid alternate permit" under this procedure?

In NC, your valid CHP allows you to purchase a handgun without the NICS check. Walk in, fill out the form, show your permit, walk out. Very easy. I know other states do this as well.

 

[chiggerbyt]

Chiggerbyt, I'd never heard of that procedure...thanks for posting the link.

Now this question: do you know if a resident carry permit from a state whose permits qualify "as an alternative to the background check requirements of the Brady law" represent a "valid alternate permit" under this procedure?

Yes, I believe it does. I've only been an FFL for 29 years and have yet to use the NON over the counter form so I'm not intimately familiar with it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Of course that exact scenario is not in the document itself.
If you read the procedures the purpose of those procedures is clear.........the buyer and dealer are in the same state but for whatever reason the buyer cannot pickup at the licensees premises. The procedures refer several times to actions the dealer must take PRIOR to shipment or delivery of the firearm.