ANY PA Flintlock Deer hunters I have a question

[bellyup039]

My buddie just bought a PA Pellet flintlock.

My question is Can he hunt the Flintlock season with this?

AS I read the pa hunting digest it reads to the effect that:

The gun must be a replica. Does the pellet count?

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=R3810850
is what he bought.

Of course the Pa game commison web site is messed up right now and I cant check it.

I was wondering, cause he hasn't shot it yet still in box. So if he cant hunt with it in the late season, he might as well trade it back in for a hawken.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

While the PA statute indicates that the guns must be flint lock long guns of pre 1800 style. Hoever, the commission has looked the otherway on just about everything but the flint ignition and being a muzzleloader. Plastic day glo sights, ryanite stocks, stainless steel carbine guns, all OK so long as a flintlock.

You can call the regional office to make certain, but the fact is that you are reading the rules correctly. It is just that the Commission doesn't read them. They have allowed darn near anything and everything so long as it loads from the muzzle and has flint igition.

 

[bellyup039]

thanks Zim.

That's what I thought. I might just tell him to trade it in while he can.
Might as well do it correctly.

 

[mykeal]

Interesting. Pyrodex is notoriously unreliable in flintlocks. What does this gun do that all the others don't? There's nothing in the ad to that effect.

 

[arcticap]

What does this gun do that all the others don't? There's nothing in the ad to that effect.

If I was going to buy a flintlock, I would like one of these!

From reading the Traditions PA Pellet flintlock ads and looking at the detailed pictures on The Sportsman's Guide, Bass pro Shops, Cabela's and the Traditions product pages, the following features are described in a piecemeal fashion but which does amount to providing more details:

1. This ''Super Flintlock'' has an improved hardened frizzen and deeper flash pan for countless ignitions.

2. Some great upgrades include inline ignition and a removable Thunder Dome™ breech plug. This new flintlock makes loading, shooting and cleaning a breeze. A removable breech plug allows you to clean through the WHOLE barrel.

3. the pellets are ignited from the rear for reliable and consistent ignition.

4. fully adjustable Tru-Glo® sights. - Also includes rugged high-visibility Williams Metal fiber-optic sights

5. a modern all-weather synthetic stock or select hardwood stock

6. The 26-inch octagonal barrel has a 1 in 48'' and is designed to shoot saboted bullets with extreme accuracy

7. 24 1/2" solid aluminum ramrod with brass loading jag

8. Also available with a camo stock

9. Soft-Touch stocks and forends provide a sure-grip in any conditions and with or without gloves. (That must mean that the stock is rubberized)

10. A magnum receiver accepting up to a 150 grain magnum powder charge

11. Takedown allen key supplied

12. Lifetime warranty

13. Nickeled barrel

14. Available in left hand

15. Swivels for attaching a sling


However here's one report that says that it won't shoot pellets. It probably needs a booster of black powder to ignite them if at all. (IIRC TC claimed that one of their flintlocks would shoot pellets too)

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=52312

Cabela's has some 5 star user reviews including one that says that it fired when loaded with "synthetic powder":

2" inch groups at 50 yards with 70 or 80 grains synthetic powder and a 245 gr hollow point bullet.

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0072054216719a.shtml

There's also a 5 star user review of it on Bass Pro for being highly reliable in dry weather.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/s..._425000000_425010000_425-10-1#prodDescription (click on read more)

See the photo's of the removable breech plug:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=264876

Last but not least, here's 2 videos of people shooting their Traditions PA Pellet flintlock rifle, the first with a booster of 20 grains of ffg, 2 - 777 pellets and using fffg BP as a primer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Re12NouFE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L90B-mvSBKo

 

[mykeal]

The question, in context, was specifically about the use of Pyrodex in a flintlock, and why this particular flintlock solved a problem that is epidemic in others.

Pyrodex, and the other subs, are unreliable in flintlocks because of their higher ignition temperature, and the use of gas from burning powder (that has a lower temperature than that from a percussion cap) as the ignition source.

In your post I note two things that might speak to that question, but neither of which provides any real information:

"This ''Super Flintlock'' has an improved hardened frizzen and deeper flash pan for countless ignitions. "

All frizzens are hardened, at least those which actually work, so what is there about this one that's improved, and how does frizzen hardness, or whatever 'improvement' there is, provide higher temperature gas from the ignition powder? The same question applies to a 'deeper' pan: how does a deeper pan provide for higher temperature gas from the priming powder?

"Some great upgrades include inline ignition..."

This is utter nonsense. The lock is on the side of the gun, there is a touch hole in the side of the barrel - how is that an 'inline' ignition? Sure looks like any other flintlock that I've seen.

This gun may well solve the problem of ignition reliability with substitute powders in flintlocks, but marketing department reviews and videos that don't show the actual loading don't convince me. Lacking any real engineering data as to the physics involved, we'll just have to wait and see if the community finds it to be true.

 

[Shultzhaus]

I have a PA pellet flintlock. The reasons that I picked that one are, the removable breach, it was on sale, it came with the wood stock. I have not, nor will I use pellets in it. My best load is 70gr 2f Goex, with a PRB, and a minimal amount of 4f in the pan. Works just great that way. I can keep 4 shots in a 3" circle at 50 yds (I'm 72, and have the early stages of Parkinson's) so that is the best I can do. I do not not like stainless barrels, or camo stocks (yuk) It is a very functional flinter, and looks traditional. I don't know what this "inline" thing is, but I suspect they are stretching the idea of the patent breach having the ignition point up through the center of the plug. If you like it, buy it.

 

[arcticap]

The guy in the 2nd video looks like he's shooting his PA Pellet without the vent liner installed and his ignition also seemed to fire a little bit slower than the gun in the first video.
Looking at the picture of the entire breech plug in the Sportsman's Guide ad, it looks like the flash channel does have a relatively large diameter.
And it's possible that the extra deep pan aids and enhances the ignition of synthetic powder both in the pan and in the flash channel as the main charge.
It's been reported before that folks have successfully fired their standard flintlocks using Pyrodex, APP and/or BlackMag3 as priming powder.
The Cabela's reviewer doesn't state which "synthetic" powder that he successfully fired with either.
Of course the sub. powders are not going to be as reliable as black powder is but every little enhancement might actually help toward getting them to work.

 

[Shultzhaus]

From the PA Pellet owner's manual:
Tilt the muzzleloader with it's lock side up, keeping the barrel pointed in a safe direction.

Prime the touch hole (flash hole) with one or two presses of the pan primer.

Tap the lock side of the muzzleloader so that the priming powder will fall into the breach area.

Now fill approximately ½ of the pan with the proming powder.

Close the frizzen.

The same instructions are for any of the substitute powders.
Pyrodex pellets, Pyrodex RS, and Triple 7, APP.

 

[bellyup039]

Mykeal,

Sounds like from what I am reading, that to get the best ignition, Prime with ffff into the touch hole.

Ok, so now my other question, Can I do that with my Renegade? Is it safe? should I ?

My Renegade shoots most of the time. I know my flints are not the best and I really need more practice setting them correctly. but with ffff It might give me more reliable ignition, No? I shoot with patched round ball 240 with 0.15 patches with boar butter.
when it does go off as it should. it shoots nicely. ( I do get my fair share of Awww moments! )

 

[robhof]

robhof

I've used 4f for priming my Hawkins flinter and used 3gr of the 4f behind Pyrodex since here in central Ky real b/p is scarce. I've had consistent ignitions and got 12 shots in a row at the range without cleaning, just load prime and fire, I've got a brass primer that I worked on to throw a consistant 3gr of the 4f, as I use it to load my NAA Companion 22.

 

[mykeal]

Duplex loads, such as that used by robhof, are a good solution to the problem of having to use a bp substitute in a flintlock.

bellyup039 - using ffffg as a primer is safe for your Renegade. I can't say whether or not it will improve ignition reliability. Flint locks are simple devices that involve complex interactions. Your problem may be due to many things, including touch hole geometry problems, hardness of the frizzen face, the relationship of the flint edge to the frizzen and so on.

 

[bellyup039]

I understand. I believe my problem is the flint to the frissen contact.

Sometimes I get it perfect and I am trouble free.
Most of the time it just isn't so. Close, but not perfect.

I had it perfect for 2 trips to the range. then it chipped. and I had to reset it and it just ain't correct yet.

But that is the fun right?

I might try some ffff just to see what happens with the flint as it is. If it works. GREAT. If not O well.

thanks