BSA1
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I.have always used Barnaul Silver Bear but am interested in using lacquer coated steel cartridges such as Brown Bear, Wolf or Tula (polymer coat). Any problems with this type of ammunition?
Any Problems With Using Lacquer Coated 9x18?
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I had one failure to feed running Tula in my CZ-82. It is the only time I have had that. I also found my accuracy suffered. Maybe I just got a bad batch. I thought it might be me, I'm not all that great on pistol, but I had a box of Fiocchi with me too, and as soon as I switched, I was spot on and my group shrunk to about 1/3 the size. I have not run the Tula since.
imashooter
Member
I've used assorted calibers of lacquer - coated steel ammunition with no problems. Some folks have experienced a gumming effect requiring more frequent cleaning but I never have.
dogtown tom
Member
The lacquer or polymer coating on steel cased ammunition is to prevent oxidation of the case. It doesn't melt in the chamber or cause sticking by itself.
Steel cases are more prone to carbon buildup in the chamber....which may cause extraction or feeding issues.
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My experience has been that if you run the gun hard and fast and get the chamber good and hot and then leave a round sitting in the hot chamber for more than a minute the lacquer can become sticky and cause problems. It's not so much that it melts - it's more like it turns into a sticky uncured varnish. Various types of lacquer compounds are used - some are worse than others. If you get the gun really hot - clear the chamber if you are not going to shoot again immediately. If you get a lacquer buildup in your chamber it can be scrubbed out with lacquer thinner. I have never been a fan of lacquered cases after having seen others have problems with them on the range.
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BSA1
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Thank you for all of the comments.
dogtown tom
Member
Another gun myth.......
Take a pair of pliers and hold a lacquered case over a flame and try to melt the lacquer coating........you can't. If that doesn't convince you heat up a clean barrel and drop a lacquered case into the chamber.....it won't stick.
Millions and millions of AK/AKM/SKS rifles run lacquered steel cases just fine, and have done so for 50+ years. Mostly this is due to the 7.62x39 case having a steep taper. The problems occur when folks try to use lacquer or polymer coated steel cases in a 5.56/.223 caliber AR. The straighter wall of the 5.56/.223 cases do not tolerate extraction from a chamber fouled with carbon as easily.
STEEL CASES are the problem.....they allow much more carbon buildup than brass. Any crud in the chamber causing problems is most definitely NOT lacquer or other coating.......it's CARBON.
The lacquer coating doesn't melt, get sticky, get gummy, turn into varnish or ooze......what is causing problems is CARBON buildup. If extraction is "sticky" that's due to CARBON.
Take a pair of pliers and hold a lacquered case over a flame and try to melt the lacquer coating........you can't. If that doesn't convince you heat up a clean barrel and drop a lacquered case into the chamber.....it won't stick.
Millions and millions of AK/AKM/SKS rifles run lacquered steel cases just fine, and have done so for 50+ years. Mostly this is due to the 7.62x39 case having a steep taper. The problems occur when folks try to use lacquer or polymer coated steel cases in a 5.56/.223 caliber AR. The straighter wall of the 5.56/.223 cases do not tolerate extraction from a chamber fouled with carbon as easily.
STEEL CASES are the problem.....they allow much more carbon buildup than brass. Any crud in the chamber causing problems is most definitely NOT lacquer or other coating.......it's CARBON.
Not a problem in PM. The thing is more reliable than the Glock.
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BSA1
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Thanks again. I was curious about the brass sticking in a dirty chamber stories.
jakk280rem
Member
I've never fired my Makarov or PA-63 to the point of failure, but neither one has ever failed to feed and fire, no matter the ammo type. I will say the Russian ammo is loaded quite hot. The guns are designed to take it, but your alloy frames and palms won't thank you.
thecarfarmer
Member
I've run a bunch of lacquered steel case through my FEG PA-63; never a problem.
I also have painted brass ammo with auto engine paint (since 9X18 is easy to get mixed up with Luger on the range floor), and never had a lick of trouble with it... except for explaining to people that it didn't leave paint in the gun!
And I have an anecdote about recoil: as a new shooter, I took my PA-63 to the range with a couple boxes of ammo. The following day, I had a faint bruise on the web of my right hand.
Shortly thereafter, I found that Wolff made a couple different springs. That helped. Getting access to an ammo press helped a lot more. 3.2 grains of Bullseye and a 95 gr Berry's projectile makes a nice plinking load in my gun.
-Bill
I also have painted brass ammo with auto engine paint (since 9X18 is easy to get mixed up with Luger on the range floor), and never had a lick of trouble with it... except for explaining to people that it didn't leave paint in the gun!
And I have an anecdote about recoil: as a new shooter, I took my PA-63 to the range with a couple boxes of ammo. The following day, I had a faint bruise on the web of my right hand.
Shortly thereafter, I found that Wolff made a couple different springs. That helped. Getting access to an ammo press helped a lot more. 3.2 grains of Bullseye and a 95 gr Berry's projectile makes a nice plinking load in my gun.
-Bill
Ibmikey
Member
i echo the others with regard to using 9x18 ammo in my Com Block pistols that were designed for the stuff. I limit my use of steel cases however and would never use the stuff in my Western produced firearms which get a steady diet of brass cased ammo. This is not to start a steel/ brass war it is just the way I do my shooting and find reliability in both areas to be acceptable.
I do not understand concerns about using soft metal lacquered cases. Both Federal and Blazer (probably owned by one corp) both offer ammo with aluminum cases and these cause no problems though in theory could abrade barrel chamber like aluminum rods can damage match grade rifle barrels.
lowercase
Member
In 9x18, I own seven Makarovs, a Polish P64, a CZ82, a Polish P83, and a Hungarian pistol (I think it is called a 918).
All of them run great on the cheapest steel cased stuff I can buy. Tula, Wolf, Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Red Army, you name it.
That is the beauty of those little 9x18 com bloc pistols.
All of them run great on the cheapest steel cased stuff I can buy. Tula, Wolf, Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Red Army, you name it.
That is the beauty of those little 9x18 com bloc pistols.
Deaf Smith
Member
In my EG MAKAROV, nope. In my AK 47, nope.
All work fine.
Deaf
All work fine.
Deaf
dogtown tom
Member
A lot of folks don't remember that Winchester made steel case .45acp for the US military.........yet you never heard anyone claim the 1911 "wasn't designed for steel case".
ljnowell
Member
A lot of folks don't remember that Winchester made steel case .45acp for the US military.........yet you never heard anyone claim the 1911 "wasn't designed for steel case".
Winchester is making steel cases ammo again. It will be in stores soon, if it isn't already.
Depends on the gun or more specifically, the barrel. Steel cases do not "spring back" as much as brass and require more force to extract. In tight (match grade) barrels it causes jams and broken extractors.
As for lacquered cases: potential problem is if the barrel gets hot the lacquer will soften and deposit in the barrel causing jams.
Depends on the gun. Commie guns like CZ have looser barrel throats to accomodate russian ammo.
As for lacquered cases: potential problem is if the barrel gets hot the lacquer will soften and deposit in the barrel causing jams.
Depends on the gun. Commie guns like CZ have looser barrel throats to accomodate russian ammo.
dogtown tom
Member
It's a MYTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you do you'll be the first person to show that lacquer will melt and leave a deposit in the barrel.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
Prove it.
If you do you'll be the first person to show that lacquer will melt and leave a deposit in the barrel.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
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BSA1
member
Any problems or reports with the lacquer coating flaking off and leaving pieces in the chamber?
dfariswheel
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If lacquer coated cases flaked off or melted in the chamber and caused problems, don't you think the Soviets and all their clients would have noticed this after firing BILLIONS of rounds through red-hot full-automatic weapons for over 70 years?.
Dogtown Tom has it right.
The problem is more carbon fouling in the chamber caused by the lesser elasticity of steel cases.
In the Soviet tapered chambers this isn't a problem.
When you shoot steel cases in the straighter walled American chambers extraction is harder due to the carbon fouling and the steel cases lesser elasticity and you can get stoppages.
The situation is that Soviet type weapons were specifically designed to work with steel cased ammo and Soviet steel cased ammo was specifically designed to work with Soviet guns.
Western guns were designed with NO thought to the use of steel cased ammo and when you use steel cases in the less tapered chamber you potentially get problems with SOME guns with SOME steel cased ammo.
As Dogtown Tom said, try heating a lacquered steel case with a torch and see if the lacquer will melt.
Lacquer also doesn't usually flake off. If it did the case would rust almost immediately being made of mild steel.
Dogtown Tom has it right.
The problem is more carbon fouling in the chamber caused by the lesser elasticity of steel cases.
In the Soviet tapered chambers this isn't a problem.
When you shoot steel cases in the straighter walled American chambers extraction is harder due to the carbon fouling and the steel cases lesser elasticity and you can get stoppages.
The situation is that Soviet type weapons were specifically designed to work with steel cased ammo and Soviet steel cased ammo was specifically designed to work with Soviet guns.
Western guns were designed with NO thought to the use of steel cased ammo and when you use steel cases in the less tapered chamber you potentially get problems with SOME guns with SOME steel cased ammo.
As Dogtown Tom said, try heating a lacquered steel case with a torch and see if the lacquer will melt.
Lacquer also doesn't usually flake off. If it did the case would rust almost immediately being made of mild steel.
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