I am having difficulty attempting to reload .45 ACP using once-fired brass and Nosler 185 gr jhp’s, so I thought I’d seek some help from the extensive knowledge base here on THR. I am having an issue with bullet set-back whenever I rack a round into the chamber of my Ruger SR1911. The OAL is set to 1.200, based on the Nosler load data, plus the fact anything longer will not pass the “plunk test” in my barrel. I am using a Lee turret press and Lee dies, including the factory crimp die. The expansion die is set very, very shallow in order to maintain as much neck tension as possible, and the fcd is set on the heavy side (a tad more than 1 full turn of the adjustment knob, based on the Lee setup instructions). Whenever a round is cycled into the chamber, the bullet set-back is approx .010” to .015”, and it appears to be caused when the leading edge of the bullet hits the barrel ramp. Any suggestions for a remedy to this problem? Would more crimp be of any help in securing the bullet in the case, without causing an over-pressure situation? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!
Any Remedies For Bullet Set-Back?
- Thread starter DaBruins
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Neck tension controls set-back.
NOT more taper crimp.
Excessive taper crimp may make it worse.
The hard brass case has more spring-back then the soft bullet jacket and lead core.
SO the more you squeeze the case down on the bullet, the looser it gets.
Measure your expander out of the die.
It should measure no more then .448" at most.
If it happens to be a Lee powder through expander the rough finish is probably rasping brass out of the inside of the case too.
Polish it smooth as a baby's bottom!
All it should really be doing to the sized case is guide the belling portion into the case so you can bell.
The bullet should be doing the expanding when you seat it.
Then set your crimp to just remove the case mouth bell, and no more.
The taper-crimp should do no more then just kiss the bullet jacket.
Your loaded rounds case mouths should then measure .469" Min - .470" Max after crimping.
If that don't work?
1. Thin brass. (Like Remington?)
2. Or over-size / out of spec sizing die. (Like your sized case is already loose on the bullets before belling.)
3. Light for caliber bullets like you are using have a very short bearing surface (friction) inside the case to start with so all the other stuff I mentioned has to be right to keep them from slipping..
rc
NOT more taper crimp.
Excessive taper crimp may make it worse.
The hard brass case has more spring-back then the soft bullet jacket and lead core.
SO the more you squeeze the case down on the bullet, the looser it gets.
Measure your expander out of the die.
It should measure no more then .448" at most.
If it happens to be a Lee powder through expander the rough finish is probably rasping brass out of the inside of the case too.
Polish it smooth as a baby's bottom!
All it should really be doing to the sized case is guide the belling portion into the case so you can bell.
The bullet should be doing the expanding when you seat it.
Then set your crimp to just remove the case mouth bell, and no more.
The taper-crimp should do no more then just kiss the bullet jacket.
Your loaded rounds case mouths should then measure .469" Min - .470" Max after crimping.
If that don't work?
1. Thin brass. (Like Remington?)
2. Or over-size / out of spec sizing die. (Like your sized case is already loose on the bullets before belling.)
3. Light for caliber bullets like you are using have a very short bearing surface (friction) inside the case to start with so all the other stuff I mentioned has to be right to keep them from slipping..
rc
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You could swap the expander for a flaring tool like the Lee universal expander.
It's a conical expander that only flares the case mouth. That way the bullet does the expanding and bullet tension is maximized.
Dump the FCD and just bump the case mouth back to straight with a taper crimp die.
It's a conical expander that only flares the case mouth. That way the bullet does the expanding and bullet tension is maximized.
Dump the FCD and just bump the case mouth back to straight with a taper crimp die.
gamestalker
member
You are very likely over crimping. Auto loading cartridges, such as 45 acp, does not utilize the crimp as a means of bullet hold, or neck tension control as it were. The more crimp you apply, the less neck tension you'll get. And judgng by what you said about the crimp die being adjusted on the heavy side, I feel confident your issue is over crimp. Try seating without crimping or belling the case at all, that will produce maximum obtainable neck tension. Just chamfer the mouth nice and evenly and then seat without doing anything else to the case, and I'll bet your problem disapears. But if you are going to use a crimp, which most do, it should be only what is necessay to remove the belling of the mouth, no more.
GS
GS
Based on the suggestions and recommendations above, I spent the morning readjusting my dies, trying different crimp and die settings, to see if I could fix the set-back problem. Firstly, I backed out the powder through expansion die a bit more, so now I have an extremely shallow belling of the case (the bullet drops into the case about .030”, then I remove the case from the shell holder to realign the bullet, making sure it’s as straight as possible). Secondly, I added more crimp using the crimping/seating die, but only enough to remove the belling, plus an additional 1/8 of a turn of the die (previously, this die was set for bullet seating only- no crimp was added), resulting in the case mouth diameter running consistently in the .470”-.471” range. Lastly, I hit the fcp, which has been reset to a very light setting (1/4 turn of the adjusting knob- Lee recommends ½ turn for a “light crimp”). In fact, I don’t feel any resistance on the press arm when I run the case into the fcd, so I don’t know if it’s actually doing anything. With this set up, I still have a small set back of .005”-.006”, which is an improvement over the .010”-.015” I was seeing earlier. By the way, the results were the same with and without using the fcd on my test rounds.
I tried a heavier crimp using the crimping/seating die, but the case mouth was cutting into the bullet jacket, so I backed out the die incrementally until the bullet jacket was unaffected by the crimp. All of the test rounds were with Winchester once fired brass, and they all had a wall thickness of .011”.
I tried a heavier crimp using the crimping/seating die, but the case mouth was cutting into the bullet jacket, so I backed out the die incrementally until the bullet jacket was unaffected by the crimp. All of the test rounds were with Winchester once fired brass, and they all had a wall thickness of .011”.
45ACP is the worst caliber out of the 6-7 I routinely reload, concerning neck tension issues.
What I do is pay attention while flaring. Any case where I don't feel good resistance while flaring, I set aside. I use these cases only for specific, oversized bullets. I use only the "good" cases for my standard jacketed bullets. If I feel no resistance while expanding, I toss the case, entirely. This applies to all my calibers. I've found and junked several 38 and 223 cases this way. This also prevents 380 and 9mm mak cases from getting charged and seated with a 9mm bullet.
FWIW, I find my CBC cases have the thickest brass and best neck tension in 45ACP. Remington and S&B are the worst. But there are exceptions, which is why I no longer sort by headstamp. Sorting by feel is not a perfect system, since it is affected by case length (at least in straight walled cases); but it's a pretty good predictive indicator of a bad case, and it takes little time or extra effort.
What I do is pay attention while flaring. Any case where I don't feel good resistance while flaring, I set aside. I use these cases only for specific, oversized bullets. I use only the "good" cases for my standard jacketed bullets. If I feel no resistance while expanding, I toss the case, entirely. This applies to all my calibers. I've found and junked several 38 and 223 cases this way. This also prevents 380 and 9mm mak cases from getting charged and seated with a 9mm bullet.
FWIW, I find my CBC cases have the thickest brass and best neck tension in 45ACP. Remington and S&B are the worst. But there are exceptions, which is why I no longer sort by headstamp. Sorting by feel is not a perfect system, since it is affected by case length (at least in straight walled cases); but it's a pretty good predictive indicator of a bad case, and it takes little time or extra effort.
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If the bullet drops into the case by .030" then you are still over belling. Does your powder through die do a two step bell like a Lyman M-die? If so, back it out until you are not belling at all and the bullet does not seat inside the case at all. That will be your starting point. Then adjust the die progressively until a bullet placed on top of the case mouth seats without collapsing the case walls.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Did you measure your expander like I said in post #2??
Is it a Lee expander like I ask in post #2?
rc
Is it a Lee expander like I ask in post #2?
rc
sellersm
Member
Go with what rc said. Setback is prevented by bullet tension when placed in the case. Period. Crimp can hurt it, but won't cure it.
Lost Sheep
Member
That gives you no protection against bullet setback if it happens on the first time a round is chambered.
Respectfully,
Lost Sheep
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
+1
If you have a bullet set-back problem after the second or third chambering?
You have a case neck tension problem.
And behooves you to figure out why if you want safe reloads.
rc
If you have a bullet set-back problem after the second or third chambering?
You have a case neck tension problem.
And behooves you to figure out why if you want safe reloads.
rc
ljnowell
Member
The only time I have ever had issues with neck tension was realoading 185 gr jacketed bullets in 45 acp. That extra .001 of the 185gr lead negated the issue for me. I found that when I load 185gr JHPs(not very often) that I simply use winchester brass only. Its thick enough there are no issues.
rc-
Yes, I measured the expander plug from my Lee powder through expander die, and it’s .451”. You had stated it should be .448” max, which had me a bit confused, since the bullet diameter is .451” it doesn’t seem like a .448” expander plug would be of sufficient size to work as intended. Unless I’m missing something????
And yes, I agree- the problem needs to be resolved, which is why I’ll only be shooting factory rounds until I’m 300% positive that my reloads are totally safe, with absolutely no chance of set-back during chambering. As I noted in my original post, the set-back occurs due to the leading edge of the jhp being rammed into the barrel feed ramp as the slide picks up the round in the magazine and moves it forward into the chamber. I’m at the point where I’d prefer to forego the 185 gr jhp’s and switch to 230 gr round nose, since they cycle without issue, but given recent current events it’s close to impossible to locate a source of .45 bullets without experiencing a 3-4 week delay in shipping. Oh well…….
Yes, I measured the expander plug from my Lee powder through expander die, and it’s .451”. You had stated it should be .448” max, which had me a bit confused, since the bullet diameter is .451” it doesn’t seem like a .448” expander plug would be of sufficient size to work as intended. Unless I’m missing something????
And yes, I agree- the problem needs to be resolved, which is why I’ll only be shooting factory rounds until I’m 300% positive that my reloads are totally safe, with absolutely no chance of set-back during chambering. As I noted in my original post, the set-back occurs due to the leading edge of the jhp being rammed into the barrel feed ramp as the slide picks up the round in the magazine and moves it forward into the chamber. I’m at the point where I’d prefer to forego the 185 gr jhp’s and switch to 230 gr round nose, since they cycle without issue, but given recent current events it’s close to impossible to locate a source of .45 bullets without experiencing a 3-4 week delay in shipping. Oh well…….
Jim Watson
Member
The short slick bearing surface of the 185 gr JHP is at least part of the problem.
I once had a lot of trouble trying to use plated SWCs, too.
I have an EGW Undersize sizing die (made for them by Lee) that will give a coke bottle effect with most bullets and brass. If that isn't enough, I have a tool that will put a cannelure in the sidewall of the brass at the base of the bullet. That holds them.
expander plug from my Lee powder through expander die, and it’s .451”.
Ah HA! The expander plug should be .004" smaller than the bullet. You want a jacketed bullet to have to do some expanding of its own, qv the "coke bottle effect."
I once had a lot of trouble trying to use plated SWCs, too.
I have an EGW Undersize sizing die (made for them by Lee) that will give a coke bottle effect with most bullets and brass. If that isn't enough, I have a tool that will put a cannelure in the sidewall of the brass at the base of the bullet. That holds them.
expander plug from my Lee powder through expander die, and it’s .451”.
Ah HA! The expander plug should be .004" smaller than the bullet. You want a jacketed bullet to have to do some expanding of its own, qv the "coke bottle effect."
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Well theres your problem right there!
Like I said in post 2, the expander on Lee dies is usually rough as a cob & too big around.
It may even file away inside case mouth brass.
And all the while, it should be doing nothing more then guide the belling portion of the plug into the case.
1. Take it out.
2. Chuck it in a drill.
3. And use a strip of 240 grit Emery cloth to worry it down and polish it until it is like I said.
4. .448" or there abouts.
Problem solved!
And we could all have saved a bunch of typing!!
rc
You know, I called Lee about that once, and they told me the expanders were machined rough intentionally, in order to make it hard to pull the expander out of the case, which jerks the press, which gives the powder drop a boot in the butt to shake all the powder down.
I didn't buy it though, and I dress them smooth just like you described. Just be careful not to remove too much of the belling bevel on the plug, it's very small and hard to see, just a tiny tapered area right next to the shoulder. Smoothing it is one thing, but you can easily take off too much of it and it won't bell cases worth a hoot anymore.
Very slight, tiny taper where the arrow's pointing, don't remove it or you'll be getting a new expander plug. You can measure the taper with a pair of digital calipers, but the straight area to the left is the area that you don't want to be too big, or it'll force the case mouth too big.
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SSN Vet
Member
Great thread... I've learned something new and been reminded of something I knew but have neglected.
I would suggest that with some bullet profiles (I'm not familiar with the one used by the OP), a perceived .003" set back may actually be data scatter with your measuring.
FWIW, the 230 gr. Remington Golden Saber bullet has a nice little step in the side wall that helps with setback issues. that along with a boat load of bearing surface.
I would suggest that with some bullet profiles (I'm not familiar with the one used by the OP), a perceived .003" set back may actually be data scatter with your measuring.
FWIW, the 230 gr. Remington Golden Saber bullet has a nice little step in the side wall that helps with setback issues. that along with a boat load of bearing surface.
rc and rondog-
Now I get it!!!!! I assumed the .451 diameter of the expander plug was performing the belling function, not realizing the plug needs to go deeper into the case to allow the tapered area (per rondog's illustration) to add the bell to the case. DOH! At the .451 diameter, it's actually resizing the case, making it oversize, with little or no neck tension applied to the bullet, correct?
Well, I know what I'll be doing tomorrow morning!
Thanks guys!
Now I get it!!!!! I assumed the .451 diameter of the expander plug was performing the belling function, not realizing the plug needs to go deeper into the case to allow the tapered area (per rondog's illustration) to add the bell to the case. DOH! At the .451 diameter, it's actually resizing the case, making it oversize, with little or no neck tension applied to the bullet, correct?
Well, I know what I'll be doing tomorrow morning!
Thanks guys!
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Oh Hail Yes!!
You got it now!!
Before long, you will have got it big time, or even better I betcha.
When it works like I said it would in post #2!!
rc
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