Trying to start reloading 223 and am getting bullet set back. I measured the case neck before and after seating a bullet and get .002" difference. I read a lot of people don't crimp the case but mine pushes in pretty easily when pushing the bullet against the bench. I am using lee FL sizing die and going to shoot in an AR. The bullet is a Hornady FMJBT 55 gn. with cannaler. Should .002" be enough tension to hold bullet? I have the FCD I put a light crimp on one but still pushed in unless I crimped around .010" but maybe in the cannaler grove it takes that much? Any thoughts from the knowledgeable would be appreciated.Thanks
223 neck tension bullet set back
- Thread starter grogetr
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Take the expander out of the sizing die and measure it.
It should be no larger then .2225"
If it is larger then that, work it down with a strip of emery cloth while spinning it in a drill.
If it isn't that, I think your sizing die is not sizing it down far enough.
Try it without the expander rod in the die and see what kind of neck tension you have without it.
Should be a bunch if your die is doing what it needs to do.
rc
It should be no larger then .2225"
If it is larger then that, work it down with a strip of emery cloth while spinning it in a drill.
If it isn't that, I think your sizing die is not sizing it down far enough.
Try it without the expander rod in the die and see what kind of neck tension you have without it.
Should be a bunch if your die is doing what it needs to do.
rc
You should not have to crimp to hold the bullet in a .223 round. You definitely have a problem and more crimp is not the answer. Is the problem with one brand of brass or several different brands? How many rounds have you loaded and of those how many had the setback problem? If it is not a brass problem then it could be the expander button in the sizing die is a little too big. It needs to be 0.002 to 0.003 smaller than the bullet diameter. If it is too big, you can use a drill and Emory cloth to make it smaller. Also, measure your bullet diameter and make sure they are not undersized. Probably not the problem, but worth checking. Might also re-check the sizing die and make sure it is adjusted properly I.e. all the way down etc.
Sunray
Member
Seating die isn't set up correctly. Probably down too far. It'll give too much crimp(that you don't need anyway) too.
I haven't measured the neck expander yet but the case neck measured .222-.2225 on the cases I checked. I only loaded a couple and stopped because I thought something wasn't right. They are different head stamps. I resized 100 cases so I will take the expander pin out and check it and run a few back thru the size die to see what size the neck goes to. The seater die doesn't crimp on this set of dies. I will get back after I do some to let you know what I come up with. Thanks
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
If it's a Lee seating die it does crimp, if you screw it down far enough.
See step 5 here:
http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Pistol3.pdf
rc
This seating die is the easy adjust dead length bullet seating die that says on the instructions does not crimp. I don't know maybe its something new. I checked the decap pin and it measures .2227. The cases measure .218 +- when put thru the sizing die without the pin. I seated a bullet in one that measured.219 to the middle of the cannaler which is 2.222 oal and I could still push it in against the bench but did take a fair amount of force. Should it not move at all when doing that? I tried a couple factory rounds and one brand would not move but the other did. Thanks
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
It should take around 60 pounds force to slip a bullet in the case.
I might have been able to do it when I was young and had hard calloused hands.
But I would hurt myself trying to do it now.
rc
I might have been able to do it when I was young and had hard calloused hands.
But I would hurt myself trying to do it now.
rc
I lubed the inside of the neck on maybe 20 cases then did the rest of the 100 without and it seemed to work when sizing. When I trimmed them I chamfered the end and brushed the inside. When the first ones slipped I cleaned the inside of neck with some alcohol to make sure there was no lube but made no difference.
If the inside neck measurement is truly .219 and your bullet measures .224, that should create more than enough neck tension. I am stumped, but maybe RC has some more tricks up his sleeve. Is this worn out brass, new or once fired? What is your trim length?
Maybe the problem is you have super-human strength and just don't know it.
You could make some dummy rounds and cycle them through your gun and measure for set-back.
Maybe the problem is you have super-human strength and just don't know it.
You could make some dummy rounds and cycle them through your gun and measure for set-back.
Something is not right. A Lee FL resizing die will resize 223 with more than enough neck tension, such that pulling the bullet would be a chore.
Also, you should be needing lube inside the neck for more than just your first 20 cases out of 100. If I tried that I would have stuck cases on cases 22 through 100.
Is your resizing die touching the shell holder firmly on the down stroke? I screw down my resizing die all the way until it touches the shell holder, then turn it an extra half to three quarter turn.
Also, you should be needing lube inside the neck for more than just your first 20 cases out of 100. If I tried that I would have stuck cases on cases 22 through 100.
Is your resizing die touching the shell holder firmly on the down stroke? I screw down my resizing die all the way until it touches the shell holder, then turn it an extra half to three quarter turn.
The die set is new and the brass is once fired that I bought new and shot. I use a lee trimmer which brings it to 2.250". The size die is touching the shell holder and get a little cam effect on the bottom of the handle stroke. When I use bullet pulling hammer it takes quite a few hits on the concrete floor to get the bullet out. Maybe there isn't a problem I may be expecting to much. I may load up 5 and see what they do. I"ll let the gun cycle one then eject it to remeasure it and keep doing that to check all before firing. Thanks for the help I"m new at this and don't want any bad surprises. Also if you lube all the necks inside how do you usually clean the lube away.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Use a Sharpie pen to mark around the bullet / case mouth joint.
Then cycle them one shot at a time through the rifle.
If the Sharpy mark disappears inside the case, you have set-back.
rc
Then cycle them one shot at a time through the rifle.
If the Sharpy mark disappears inside the case, you have set-back.
rc
For what it is worth, I have never intentionally lubed the inside of the neck of any rifle cartridge I have ever loaded. Maybe I am doing it wrong, but I have never stuck a case. I am no old timer, but it have loaded a couple thousand .223, a few hundred 30/30 and a few hundred 7.62x39. I dump my cases in a ziploc bag and spray 3 or 4 squirts of Dillon case lube in the bag, seal the bag and roll them around in my hands for 30 seconds, open the bag and let them dry for 4 or 5 minutes. Maybe a tiny bit of lube gets in the neck, but I sort of doubt it.
243winxb
Member
223 neck tension & bullet set back
More than 35 lbs and the bullets going to move with the .002" neck tension. Mixed range brass will have problems as will heavily worked brass. Chamber a few dummy rounds, see if you have bullet movement. From Sierra - http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm See "Neck Tension"
gamestalker
member
If you have a bathroom scale, you can test to see how many pounds of force it takes to move one by pushing it against the scale. I've done this by placing a small piece 2"x2" 1/4" plywood or like to press the round against.
The other way to know if all is good is to simply try chambering a few dummy rounds as mentioned above. If they don't set back a bunch your good to go. And even if they experience a few thou of set back, like .002" to .005" will not be an issue with a bottle neck cartridge.
GS
The other way to know if all is good is to simply try chambering a few dummy rounds as mentioned above. If they don't set back a bunch your good to go. And even if they experience a few thou of set back, like .002" to .005" will not be an issue with a bottle neck cartridge.
GS
spitballer
Member
I reload for a bolt only but I've found that hardening of brass is the number one issue for inconsistent neck tension. When brass is soft it is accommodating and it doesn't demand to be made a certain size. When it gets hard it no longer stretches very much and the inconsistent wall thickness of economy brass will make some necks tighter than others. As for the crimp, if I had an auto I'd definitely be crimping. And it would be a quality roll crimp, too, not one of those crimpers that chokes into the case necks and ends up looking like a circumcision gone bad. I shoot a bolt exclusively but I envy your opportunity to make good on your crimps - an operation that I suspect is vastly overlooked when reloading for accuracy in an autoloader. Good luck to you.
ironworkerwill
Member
Where are you measuring setback? You cannot rely on oal from the tip as it may become flattened by recoil in the magazine.
morcey2
Member
RC, I generally don't disagree with you, but Lee doesn't make a seater die in 223 that crimps. Their seater die is a dead-length seater which doesn't crimp. The doc that you linked is for the pistol seater die setup and those do indeed crimp if setup correctly.
Matt
If you don't need to lube inside the case neck or don't need to lube each case, then that's a good thing. One less step.
But for me, one stuck case was enough so I now lube inside the case neck and no stuck cases since. To remove the lube, I tumble my brass... again.
Not saying my way is the correct way or most efficient. Just sayin.
But for me, one stuck case was enough so I now lube inside the case neck and no stuck cases since. To remove the lube, I tumble my brass... again.
Not saying my way is the correct way or most efficient. Just sayin.
Potatohead
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Do you have a case gauge, or are you using a case gauge to check your sized cases?
Might not cure your problem but it's a good habit to get into.
Might not cure your problem but it's a good habit to get into.
gamestalker
member
Post #21 is good advice. That caught my attention also, and I was going to mention that earlier in fact, just saying.. A stuck case is no fun.
GS
GS
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Not lubing inside case necks is neither the cause, or the cure for stuck cases in a sizing die.
In fact it has nothing at all to do with stuck cases.
Cases stick in sizing dies due to lack of lubrication on the outside of the case, especially back near the case head where the thickest part of the brass is located.
Inside neck lube will stop shoulder stretch, or squeaking when the expander is pulled back out of the case neck.
But that's the last thing that happens in resizing.
And it happens Well After the case is out of the die, and no longer in risk of becoming stuck in the die.
rc
In fact it has nothing at all to do with stuck cases.
Cases stick in sizing dies due to lack of lubrication on the outside of the case, especially back near the case head where the thickest part of the brass is located.
Inside neck lube will stop shoulder stretch, or squeaking when the expander is pulled back out of the case neck.
But that's the last thing that happens in resizing.
And it happens Well After the case is out of the die, and no longer in risk of becoming stuck in the die.
rc
My manual says to lube the inside of the neck but didn't know if it was really necessary. I thought if one stuck it would be from the outside but again I was just guessing. I did wonder if it would stretch the neck or something like that. It's not a problem to do it so I guess better safe than sorry. I haven't had a chance to do any more with the set back but will post again when I do. Thanks
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