Any sling other than a carry strap is a major liability?

[GunGoBoom]

Guys, I know virtually nothing of tac-slings, or tactics for that matter. But in a conversation with a well-respected local gunny who is a tactical type guy (IPSC, 3-gun, etc.), he says a 3-point or other sling permanently attached to both your body and gun could be a death sentence - all the BG has to do is grab your rifle, and he controls your body (which can prevent you from grabbing your pistol, running, or executing any other offensive or defensive move). And he says, if he is not using his rifle, he can just drop it and it's on the ground right there in front of him, ready for him to pick up at any time. So, this will surely start a flame war - tac slings far more a negative than positive?

 

[Brian Williams]

Could be a death sentence, but weapon transferance happens easier when you have your weapons handy, not on the ground in front of you. An advancement to the rear then gives your opponent your main battle weapon if you happen to be close range handgun fighting. Also if you place, drop, put down your weapon you have to look down to pick it back up, where if it is still attached to you you just reach and grab.

 

[Jeff White]

The people who use their weapons in actual close quarters combat for the most part use single point slings or 3 point slings. Did they buy into the hype of an ad in a magazine or do you think they really might have some utility?

You should tell your friend that three gun and IPSC isn't CQB and if he thinks he's an operator because he plays gun games he's fooling himself.

There are many different skillsets that go into training for and conducting those type of operations. Going hands on with the BG is something you train for along with shooting him in the face. There are muzzle strikes and other techniques you can use. Also those operations are not conducted alone so anyone who grabbed a long weapon faces a good chance of being shot by the number 2 man.

Finally most current production single point and 3 point slings employ a quick release buckle so that you can dump the weapon if you have to.

Jeff

 

[GunGoBoom]

Also those operations are not conducted alone so anyone who grabbed a long weapon faces a good chance of being shot by the number 2 man.

Well, that was precisely his point - they may be a great idea for a team/SWAT situation - number 2 or 3 man hoses BG who is wrestling with your rifle/sling. Since he is NOT part of a team (not LEO); Not an 'operator' as I *think* you are defining that word; but rather my friend is, quite to the contrary, an individual dude (as am I), and in that context, there IS NO #2 man, and if you're wrestling for your body's position with a larger individual, you're probably screwed. Jeff, are you an LEO or 'operator'? Or just a dude who is interested in providing self-protection...just asking. 'Cuz I think we may be confusing the two missions. Or perhaps I should have made that more clear in my original post (probably so). (and it seems to me that a quick-release buckle may or may not work, depending on if you have time to find it and push it, and if the tension on it resulting from the wrestling match makes it much more difficult to release).

Did they buy into the hype of an ad in a magazine or

I'm not sure if you did or did not mean to imply that them buying into hype is not possible. But it certainly IS a possibility. Just look at the prices of tactical gear vs. gear that does the same thing for 1/2 the price, and you will quickly conclude that lots of tactical types buy into a lot of unnecessary & overpriced junk. Not saying for sure that tac slings are or are not in that category, just that it's quite possible for LEOAs and the like to buy into unnecessary hype.

 

[Preacherman]

I've served and trained with the "hard men" in a previous life, so I think I can contribute something to this discussion.

First, the point of a sling is to have the weapon immediately available to you when you need it. If you've got it slung (whether 3-point, single-point, or whatever) it's ready to go when you are. Having a weapon leaning against a wall, or a tree-trunk, or lying on the ground, is not nearly as accessible, and also exposes you to the risk of having to move suddenly (as Clint Smith puts it, "incoming fire has the right of way"! ) without having time or opportunity to grab it. Congratulations - you've now disarmed yourself of your primary weapon.

Second, if you're trained and have even a bit of experience, it's rather difficult for someone to take your slung weapon away from you. There are all sorts of counters and other weapons available to you. If someone grabs my slung weapon and tries to take it away from me, or use it to throw me off-balance, by the time he gets going, I'll have a handgun, or a knife, or some other weapon in one or both hands, and I'll not hesitate to use it to indicate my displeasure to him. (Don't forget that since his hands are on my slung weapon, by definition, parts of him are within easy reach of grievous bodily harm.)

Thirdly, a major point in CQB issues is not to make weapons available to your enemies. If you leave a weapon lying around, or leaning on something, it's not secured, and can be grabbed and used against you (particularly in a situation such as my first point above). You never, NEVER want to arm your opponent: and with a slung weapon, you won't, unless you're badly hurt or dead, and can't stop him unslinging it. 'Nuff said.

Finally, in the confusion of CQB, it's not unknown for mistakes to be made in the heat of the moment. I've personally witnessed one guy going into a house-clearing firefight carrying an R4 (South African-manufactured copy of the Israeli Galil) in 5.56mm. He came out a couple of minutes later carrying an AK-47, in 7.62x39mm. Needless to say, he didn't have the right ammo or magazines on him... We gave him all sorts of hell for his mistake, but we all learned from it. Use of slings increased dramatically from then onward!

 

[JamisJockey]

Preacherman, +1. If I'm were sporting a tac-slung weapon, its going to go bang when you grab it. If that fails to stop you, I'm going to have a very big knife or a handgun close enough to deploy post-haste. IPSC and 3 gun are gun games. They are not real world training. To paraphrase, your buddy doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

well-respected local gunny who is a tactical type guy (IPSC, 3-gun, etc.)

Oh sure, those IPSC, 3-gun folks know everything. IPSC is SOOOO tactical.

he says a 3-point or other sling permanently attached to both your body and gun could be a death sentence - all the BG has to do is grab your rifle, and he controls your body (which can prevent you from grabbing your pistol, running, or executing any other offensive or defensive move)

We use a single point attachment. It does not interfere with my getting to my sidearm. As long as the bad guy has my rifle in his hands, I could be blindfolded and still shoot him with my sidearm since I know exactly where he is and because he is so close. Of course, if he were to grab my slung rifle, there are counters for such a move.

And he says, if he is not using his rifle, he can just drop it and it's on the ground right there in front of him, ready for him to pick up at any time.

Or, it could be right on the ground for the BG to pick up and use against him in some manner since he is no longer in control of it. The notion of dropping it on the ground in front of him means surrendering control of it and his statement assumes that he is going to be able to hold the ground he has such that he can casually bend over and pick up the rifle at his convenience. That might work in a fox hole or pill box where you are at ground level, but otherwise it sounds pretty darned stupid.

If you watch the footage from any war or of SWAT officers doing dynamic entries, nobody ever abandons a gun in the heat of battle that they plan on getting back to use.

---------

In the grand scheme, like the local gunny IPSC 3-gun guru play his own little game and you play yours. Being respected does not mean that he is necessarily right.

 

[444]

I am not an "operator" and don't want to be one. But I have heard this all before: one gun school that I attended preached this same line every time I went there: "all the BG has to do is grab your rifle, and he controls your body"
My question is, which is worse: he grabs your weapon and controls your body, OR, he grabs your weapon and takes it from you and now he has your weapon and you don't ?

In my non-operator point of view, as long as that weapon is attached to your body, he doesn't have it and you have a chance to get it back. My non-tactcal brain tells me that the odds are pretty good if someone snatches your rifle away from you, the next step is him shooting you with it.
But what do I know ?

 

[Jeff White]

GunGoBoom,
I wouldn't call myself an operator...that term is kind of reserved for people in the unit the US Army doesn't admit exists, but Lee Marvin and Chuck Norris made B grade movies about.

I'm just a cop who's been on a couple tactical units and currently provides the rifle training for one. Served a few warrants...Pretty low speed high drag really...not anything like LAPD D Platoon...Still a student in this business.

Think about what you use your sling for. You use it to carry your long arm. A tactical sling allows you to carry it in the ready position.

I don't really see the need for the guy who uses a long gun for defensive purposes to have a different sling then I use. The mission is similar enough. I don't see the disadvantage of being tied to your weapon unless you're in an aircraft or vehicle that goes into the water.

Jeff

 

[chopinbloc]

well, i'm not a ninja, but i strongly believe in having essential equipment attached to one's self and the only thing i can think of that's more essential than a rifle is a canteen.

 

[WT]

At some French airports I've seen gendarmes carrying SMG's that are CHAINED to their body. Back in the 1970's - 1980's the terrs killed gendarmes and then used the cop's SMG to kill others in the airport. With a short chain this scenario is more difficult to carry out.


A lot of our soldiers and marines in Iraq are getting tremendous experience carrying weapons with slings, room clearing, and shooting up a lot of bad guys. I think that experience far exceeds that of the IPSC 'playground' commandos.

 

[geekWithA.45]

I'd simply like to point out that there's a lot more to gaining control of an opponents body than grabbing the rifle that is strapped to him.

 

[GunGoBoom]

OK, guys, you make a pretty good case for the tac-sling - particularly in light of the (apparent) ease of the release should that become necessary. I'll confront my friend with the new info and see if he has a response. Thanks again - I'm just trying to learn.

How bout a new acronym: IANANNDOIPOOTV: I am not a ninja, nor do I play one on TV.

 

[carebear]

your acronym says "do I poot" in it.

<heh, heh, heh>

 

[444]

My ARs and both shotguns have single point tactical slings on them. I can't think of a senario where I would release the sling because a bad guy had his hands on my weapon. There certainly could be situations, I just can't think of one. I can think of other senarios where I might need to relase the weapon because of some pending accident not involving a bad guy.

People on these threads love to put people like IPSC shooters down. It's a shame that people feel so insecure that they need to put other fellow gun owners and shooters down like that. It's just another case where The High Road is a name only.
PS: I am not an IPSC shooter although I have shot a match here and there.

 

[grimjaw]

I am not an operator, or anything of the type. I've been in a couple of fights, and the thing they grabbed to get control of my body was my HEAD. But I'll play the bad guy in this scenario, from an uneducated, drive it like I stole it perspective.

We're in a fight, you throw your rifle on the ground, I think, SWEET! I grapple with you in earnest.
We're in a fight, you throw your rifle on the ground, and then reach to pick it up. When you bend down, I kick it away/kick dirt in your face/kick you in the head.
We're in a fight, you throw your rifle on the ground, the magazine flies loose/it breaks/it goes off/etc.

I'm not a student of these matters, but I would think neither are many BG's. Very interesting discussion though, please continue.

jmm

 

[JamisJockey]

Another thing to consider:
Looking at it from the other side, being the defender. My last interest is being that close to a skilled operator. I will look for a fatal funnel and lay in wait. Hit hard, and move. These are basic guerilla tactics, easy to learn and teach. Why would I want to be that close to someone who wants to kill me?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

They control your body...

This notion of grabbing your slung gun results in the bad guy controlling your body isn't quite right. In all the right circumstances, he may gain control of your body, but in reality, he probably will only be gaining some influence over your body. Then again, it also means he has put himself in your immediate proximity and so he risks harm to himself by staying that close to danger.

We played this in a class. I didn't like it much, but we all got spun around at the end of slings in an open air situation where the person grabbing the fake slung rifle could swing you around with some force. As we were swung, one thing remained constant. The bad guy was always at the end of our rifle regardless of how fast or slow we were slung and he had "control." So while being slung, you draw the sidearm and aim to the end of your rifle where the bad guy is.

In other words, there are all sorts of counters to this concern of body control. They don't require ninja skills, just familiarity of what to do, as with any other emergency situation.

 

[Hardware]

Not an operator, but speaking from experience of having gone hand to hand with the criminally insane on more than one occasion; I don't know about grabbing a rifle and controlling your body, but if I grab your wrist and elbow I control your entire upper body. I can lay you down flat on the ground, convert the hold to an arm bar or torsion hold or even hyper extend your arm to pop the elbow or shoulder. Modify the grip and go for a hip throw, or spin you into a handy solid object. And grabbing your arm is going to make sure you can't control your weapon.

Think about it. If I grab your weapon you have two hands on it to fight against my moves. Sure, the sling attached to your body may prevent me from taking it but it also prevents me from using it on you. Given that I can't get it away from you, who do you think is going to win in a contest over the longarm? If I grab your forearm at either end you only have one arm you can use to defend against my actions. I'm going to win and be able to do what I want with that forearm.

 

[444]

You left out one step in the process.
You grapple with me for my rifle.
You release my rifle in order to try a ninja move on one of my arms.
The second you quit fighting for my weapon, you are butt stroked or shot. As soon as you release one hand on the rifle, the rifle pivots and you are shot.
I am not going to just stand there and let you do anything other than bleeding.

 

[shotgunner]

Usually if somebody is holding on to you, or some part of your body you can seriously do some harm to them. If you know basic Judo, Aikido, Jujitsu, or many many other defensive martial arts. You can do moves that actually make their brain "hold on to you" because YOU become their balance. It's a tricky concept to grasp, but, once you have a basic knowledge of becoming somebody else's balance then things can just fall into place. One thing we were always taught is practic, practice, practice, and when you're done, practice some more. I would say Jujitsu, Aikido, Judo, or Krav Maga would have the most effective moves for a situation like this. Even Japanese Karate-Do, and Kung-Fu would have great moves for making your body somebody else's balance, thusly, messing them up royally.

My .02

Insert Flames Below.

 

[shotgunner]

One more thing, Even Iaido (a sword fighting art) would have great moves for this, because it would be similar to somebody trying to take your blade from you.



Good Luck!

 

[mattw]

If someone could grab your slung weapon and throw you around wouldn't they also be able to grab you by the vest or BDU shirt or whatever also? So it doesn't really matter if your weapon is slung or not if you aren't paying attention and the other guy grabs you or the slung weapon the same thing would happen, right?

 

[Hardware]

444, the whole point is grabbing the rifle is foolish. If you're close enough to grapple for the rifle (and really, wouldn't it just be better to shoot the guy with the rifle?) you're close enough to grab the arm and do something really effective instead of wrestling over the rifle. As I said before, if I've got two hands on your one arm, strong side or weak, I'm the one in control. I've got leverage and strength owing to the fact that your arm is fighting my entire upper body.

Go to an Aikido dojo and ask for a demonstration. I'm sure you will find it very illuminating. Just remember, ice, ace and ibuprofen.

 

[Yowza]

Hardware

In aikido, there are ways to counter the attack you are describing. Morotetori is the attack - two hands grabbing one arm. It can be countered by several techniques as long as you can move your feet. If you can't move your feet, you may be in trouble.

Morotetori nikkyo would be especially effective in the event someone grabbed your rifle and as an added benefit it would most likely end up with the attacker on his knees looking up straight into the muzzle.

Rick