Anybody use/keep less lethal ammo?

[mcb]

I have a couple 410 shotguns does that count? I was always told (tongue firmly in cheek) that the 410 was invented so a father could survive teaching is son to hunt.

{runs and hides from thread}

 

[Hugger-4641]

I do own some LTL ammo, and do keep some loaded in a couple firearms, but these are only for welcoming the neighbor's dogs. I don't see any upside to trying to use these against a human threat.

 

[DustyGmt]

I think more than anything, less lethal ammunitions are a nice idea but not for the average joe protecting home, in the average home invasion scenario with one or more intruders, you're already fighting an uphill battle because you are presumably fighting without advance warning and don't possess the upper hand since you're being forced to react, which is why having superior firepower to the criminal is ideal and if your packing LL ammo that almost most certainly will not be the case.

I'm sure one of the last things any of us wants is to put somebody down but it's one or two rungs down the ladder compared to protecting my family so I'd forego the rubber bell ringer ammunition. I've heard all kinds of silly things from all kinds of silly people, rock salt and all other kinds of home brew modified shells and cartridges. Like "if they take a shot of that I promise you they won't want another and their sneakers'll be smoking after they blaze a trail outta here"......

Hope is not a strategy, and half measures get you killed.

 

[Beck]

Nope...

 

[Meeks36]

If the sight of a firearm doesn’t deter who ever then ltl will have zero effect.

 

[Hokkmike]

So, would that include loads especially designed for SASS shooting?

 

[Styx]

Just wondering if anybody here has a gun stowed away at their bedside or in the closet with a shot of less legal (rubber slug, buckshot, snakeshot, etc..) or if you keep it on hand for any reason?

Just interested in hearing a case for or against such a practice, I kind of know where I come down on it, last thing I want to do is be forced to pull up a gun to defend myself and am of the opinion that once (at least for me) I have brought a gun into the equation, I need to be able to quickly be able to end the fight and while you might very well be able to do that with a less lethal ammo type, you could just as well be signing your own death warrant. To me it's a nice thought and I have some on hand, but tbh the reason I bought them (rubber 12ga slugs) was because I had a couple very ballsy and brazen black bears around the place but I've wondered at times if it might be charitable to have a less lethal ammo on hand, maybe not in the magazine or tube, but perhaps on the butt cuff or shell/cartridge carrier for someone who poses an immediate threat but maybe doesn't have all their mental faculties or is a lil lost or confused but posing a threat or aggression all the same....

I'm thinking of scenarios where somebody who may possibly be mentally ill or have dementia or some other impairment, I'm specifically thinking of a scenario where last year my sister had someone enter her home and talk to her kids while she was showering and didn't even know they'd (whoever they are) came and went without my sister even knowing until my young nephew filled her in some time afterward, or more recently there was a young woman who posted a video of herself dancing in a Tik Tok video and all the sudden she is startled by someone walking into her home and asking "are you my friend".

I know it's impossible to anticipate all the various scenarios so I stick to the old tried and true threat stoppers, ask questions later kind of philosophy, but I can't help but wonder from time to time if a less lethal type of projectile that allows you to incapacitate somebody (hopefully), might be a worthwhile consideration.

I'm expecting most people are going to advise conventional lead projectiles designed stop/incapacitate and/or kill the lethal threat are necessary since you're reacting to the threat and don't own the initiative so you're already behind the 8 ball and need every advantage you can get......

That's just a few of my thoughts on it, but I figured I'd open it up for anybody who's considered this and the conclusions you've made or advice you may have.

Pepper spray is my less than lethal. If I pull out a gun, it's because my life is on the line. I don't recommend pulling out a firearm otherwise in an altercation whether you have less than lethal rounds or not.

 

[9x56MS]

I keep a shotgun with rubber buckshot for persuading bears that don't get the hint from BB guns. Never had to hit one twice.

 

[warnerwh]

Someone on drugs may not be deterred by rubber slugs even from a 12 gauge. However I can see using less lethal ammo on wild animals that just need to be coaxed away. I think it's too dangerous to risk using less lethal ammo in a defense against human scenario though.

 

[herrwalther]

No. I have used less lethal munitions in the past like rubber buckshot, Tasers, and chemical irritants for employers but do not own any for my own weapons. I might pick up a few boxes to have on hand in case they are ever needed for a very specific circumstance I don't likely see happening. And as a hedge against ever raising ammo prices.

 

[pharmer]

If I'm not shooting I have this 32" piece of shovel handle for "tune ups." Joe

 

[Howland937]

I used to have a pretty good arm...accurate and could throw hard. Long ago, I kept 5 or 6 billiard balls in my top drawer right by the bed. You know, back when duty to retreat was a thing in Ohio. Figured I could chuck a cue ball hard enough to ruin a person's day--while retreating. Now I throw like a 6 year old girl thanks to a trashed rotator cuff, but thankfully I don't have a duty to retreat in the confines of my home. That's about as less-than-lethal as I ever got.

 

[21H40]

Hmmm.... LTL no good for use on people...
So what am I going to do with all these bean-bag rounds now? Rabbit hunting? Airsoft FOF?

 

[zdc1775]

I used to keep a single shot 12 gauge loaded with rubber buckshot for the occasional stray dog that acted aggressive on my property, but have since decided that while it works decently in those instances it's usually best to use a more permanent solution as they always came back a few days later and almost always acted worse the next time.

 

[mavracer]

Well, I do own handguns, does that count?

I was gonna say I have a 25 ACP and some ammo for it lol.
As to the OP no since the rubber buckshot is considered lethal force from a legal standpoint.

 

[lightman]

No!

I keep a certain amount of FMJ ammo on hand to practice with but theres no place in my thinking for rubber bullets.

 

[12Bravo20]

I own a few boxes of "less lethal" 12 gauge ammo.

It was bought for the very unlikely chance that I needed to stop a crowd at dangerclose ,but had no reason to need them deceased.

YES, it is hard to imagine that scenario ----- but better to have and see a need than to not even own.

And besides that do a GREAT job of scaring away critters that you dont want to kill.

The problem with rubber balls or rubber slugs is that they are still very much lethal at "danger close" ranges. That is why police, prison guards, and military are all taught to shoot into the ground in front of a crowd and bounce the rubber balls/slugs off the pavement into the crown. While rubber balls/slugs might not penetrate into a body, they will break ribs, collapse lungs, stop hearts, etc. And if the balls/slugs are made of hard enough material, they will penetrate at close range. Bean bags will break bones, collapse lungs, etc just like rubber balls/slugs will.

In the end, LTL ammo is not worth the trouble to use. There are all kinds of reasons not to use LTL ammo from lack of effectiveness to legal issues. Now each state will be different, but it is pretty much a guarantee that one would be better off using real ammo when the situation justifies the use of lethal force versus using less that lethal ammo. LTL ammo is like the old fashion rock salt shells. Now days there is a good chance that one will go to jail for shooting someone with rock salt.

 

[12Bravo20]

I have a couple 410 shotguns does that count? I was always told (tongue firmly in cheek) that the 410 was invented so a father could survive teaching is son to hunt.

{runs and hides from thread}

I have done enough testing with 410 buckshot loads to know that they are very effective within 25 yards or less and most self defense situations happen at 10 yards or closer. The pellets out of a 410 shell are moving just as fast as they are out of a 12 gauge shell, there is just fewer pellets per shell. When I compare 410 buckshot to 12 gauge buckshot,, I am comparing 3" 410 shells to 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells. There is only 4 pellets difference between the two.

 

[mcb]

I have done enough testing with 410 buckshot loads to know that they are very effective within 25 yards or less and most self defense situations happen at 10 yards or closer. The pellets out of a 410 shell are moving just as fast as they are out of a 12 gauge shell, there is just fewer pellets per shell. When I compare 410 buckshot to 12 gauge buckshot,, I am comparing 3" 410 shells to 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells. There is only 4 pellets difference between the two.

I agree with you, my post was very much a joke. I hunted everything with a 410 shotgun for years. I grew up in a slug only deer hunting state. I hunted deer for a few years with a 410 slug gun and took two nice bucks with it. With good ammo it was every bit as potent as a 357 magnum carbine at least out to about 60-70 yards.

But I think we are in the minority a lot of people think the 410 is pretty anemic and the origins of my joke.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I'm not pointing a firearm at a person unless my life or my family is in danger.
After all, I'm not a Baldwin... .

 

[hoardingthemanual]

No. I buy bonded and “law enforcement ammo” for supreme, barrier blind penetration and expansion. Guns hurt people, bro. That’s why we do everything we can before firing them against perceived threats. Don’t gimp a lion into a pussy cat. Get rid of your gun if you’re not ready for it.

 

[scaatylobo]

The problem with rubber balls or rubber slugs is that they are still very much lethal at "danger close" ranges. That is why police, prison guards, and military are all taught to shoot into the ground infant of a crowd and bounce the rubber balls/slugs off the pavement into the crown. While rubber balls/slugs might not penetrate into a body, they will break ribs, collapse lungs, stop hearts, etc. And if the balls/slugs are made of hard enough material, they will penetrate at close range. Bean bags will break bones, collapse lungs, etc just like rubber balls/slugs will.

In the end, LTL ammo is not worth the trouble to use. There are all kinds of reasons not to use LTL ammo from lack of effectiveness to legal issues. Now each state will be different, but it is pretty much a guarantee that one would be better off using real ammo when the situation justifies the use of lethal force versus using less that lethal ammo. LTL ammo is like the old fashion rock salt shells. Now days there is a good chance that one will go to jail for shooting someone with rock salt.

I am sure you meant well,but as a retired LEO and one that memorized the "use of force " as was required by all departments.

I dare say I know all too well the use of LTL.

I did state that I find it hard to imagine ANY use of this stuff,but better to have than need and not.

 

[12Bravo20]

I am sure you meant well,but as a retired LEO and one that memorized the "use of force " as was required by all departments.

I dare say I know all too well the use of LTL.

I did state that I find it hard to imagine ANY use of this stuff,but better to have than need and not.

And I am not here to argue with you or anyone else. I was trained on the use of less than lethal ammunition while in the Army for use during peace keeping missions. I will stick with how I was trained to use less than lethal ammunition. and we were trained to never shoot directly at a target when using any type of solid rubber projectiles again for the reasons I stated in my earlier reply.

For those interested, AGAIN check with your state laws/statutes on the use of less than lethal ammo. What the military and/or law enforcement are allowed to use is sometimes quite different for private individuals.

 

[Styx]

And I am not here to argue with you or anyone else. I was trained on the use of less than lethal ammunition while in the Army for use during peace keeping missions. I will stick with how I was trained to use less than lethal ammunition. and we were trained to never shoot directly at a target when using any type of solid rubber projectiles again for the reasons I stated in my earlier reply.

For those interested, AGAIN check with your state laws/statutes on the use of less than lethal ammo. What the military and/or law enforcement are allowed to use is sometimes quite different for private individuals.

I have not read the entire thread so forgive me. What scenario do you see yourself legally being able to take out a firearm and shoot people with less lethal projectiles? I'm just curious. I'd assume L.E. dealing with rioters/looters or attempting to arrest a non compliant subject and military applications do not translate well into lawful civilian use.

 

[theotherwaldo]

My understanding is that, for a civilian, shooting - or threatening to shoot - someone with a LTL round is the same as doing the same action with a standard round in the eyes of our legal systems.
In fact, it may be used to imply premeditation and malice... .