Anyone Carrying a Boberg or Bond Arms Bullpup?

[ChanceMcCall]

My wife's primary carry is a Boberg 9mm and I sometimes carry a Bond Arms Bullpup. (She took the Boberg away from me so I had to buy the Bond Arms to replace it.) There is nothing we don't love about the guns for close quarters defense yet we rarely hear anyone else mention them except for some gun reviews.

That said, I recognize this is a gun best reserved for experts with plenty of money. They are more money than the plastic guns and they don't have the capacity of a Springfield Armory Hellcat or a Sig 365. They also require paying attention to the ammo to make sure it is crimped, which is really not a big deal except to haters who think every gun should fire anything just in case they get to play out their Walter Mitty fantasies and only uncrimped ammo is available when the bad guys are coming after them in hoards.

All that said, we tested these guns, using four experienced shooters and 6,000 rounds of ammo against the Sig 365, the Springfield Armory Hellcat, the S&W Shield, the Glock 43, and a Detonics Auto Nine. Some of the ammo was Viet Nam surplus, quite a bit of it was Lake City, and the rest was Sig's new ammo for compact pistols, Federal Hydra Shoks, and some of the new Super Vel combat rounds.

Most of the testing was at 7 yards or 10 yards. We did shoot a few rounds at 25 yards. We were particularly interested in which gun could be drawn and fired accurately at 7-10 yards the fastest. After all, speed and accuracy is primary to winning a gun fight.

The Boberg (same as Bond Arms Bullpup) was considerably faster than the Springfield Armory Hellcat which came in second. The Sig 365 came in 3d, with the Glock coming in 4th, the Detonics coming in 5th, and the Shield 6th.

So, why are more experts not lining up for the Bond Arms Bullpup?

 

[BreechFace]

1. Cost
2. Not many out there for people to try
3. Gun looks very crowded to get a good grip without shooting ones support thumb off
4. Capacity isn’t as good as others on the market
5. Brand recognition
6. Aftermarket support is most likely small (holsters, sights, grips, etc


But with all I’m saying all the above, which is just my quick assessment; I still would like to try one.

And with all my preconceived notions that are not based on actual experience firing the BA Bullpup, they do have an interesting design that I would like to own one day, being that I like different designs in my collection. It would fit in very similarly in my collection as my Remington R51 Gen 2 with its Pederson action.

 

[Rembrandt]

Doesn't seem possible but I've been carrying a Boberg for nearly 8 years. Got in on the initial first production run when Arnie Boberg was taking the first orders. Fabulous design and ingenious on so many levels. By far the most controllable small 9mm due to its low bore axis and barrel set back design. The fact that it takes +P ammo also sets it apart for many of the competitors. My son also has one for his daily carry.

Regarding holsters, quite a few people custom build them. I went a different route and tried what was already on the market for guns of that size. Each has it's specific purpose and use, depends on the clothing attire of the moment. For cargo shorts the soft padded holsters are great. Probably use the OWB the most, modified the thumb snap strap to work for the Boberg. Bugbite ankle carry has it's place sometimes.

Extremely accurate and a dream to shoot. Price is inconsequential when it offers so many other advantages. Ammo has never been an issue, feeds everything I've bought including my reloads. Did purchase a set of the wood grips from Bond Arms, like the looks better than the original black plastic.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

I handled these at the NRA show that was hosted in houston. They really are fascinating pistols.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

Doesn't seem possible but I've been carrying a Boberg for nearly 8 years. Got in on the initial first production run when Arnie Boberg was taking the first orders. Fabulous design and ingenious on so many levels. By far the most controllable small 9mm due to its low bore axis and barrel set back design. The fact that it takes +P ammo also sets it apart for many of the competitors. My son also has one for his daily carry.

Regarding holsters, quite a few people custom build them. I went a different route and tried what was already on the market for guns of that size. Each has it's specific purpose and use, depends on the clothing attire of the moment. For cargo shorts the soft padded holsters are great. Probably use the OWB the most, modified the thumb snap strap to work for the Boberg. Bugbite ankle carry has it's place sometimes.

Extremely accurate and a dream to shoot. Price is inconsequential when it offers so many other advantages. Ammo has never been an issue, feeds everything I've bought including my reloads. Did purchase a set of the wood grips from Bond Arms, like the looks better than the original black plastic.





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Nice pictures!

Also, that was a very good point about the + P ammo. Have you tried the new Super Vels?

 

[Rexster]

I have never handled these weapons. Visually, well, I would think that the protruding rear part of the slide, and matching protruding tang, would be vexing to conceal, as I learned with Kahrs and Glocks, compared to a spurless-hammer or internal-hammer revolver, or the Seecamp pistols.

Another factor would be the danger to the digits of the support hand, especially the thumb, and, even main part of the support hand, itself, being so near the muzzle, for those who have trained with the more-forward support hand positions. Of course, not everyone has adopted the more-forward support hand positions. I was late to adopt the thumb-forward support hand position, not doing so until I transitioned to a SIG duty pistol in 2004, at age 43, but I put in plenty of training reps, and it is difficult to back-away from that, even though I have been trying to unlearn it, now that I have largely defaulted to revolvers, after retirement from LEO-ing.

In my individual case, such compact pistols are now lefty-only propositions, as I have stopped shooting compact Nines with my now-gimpy right hand. Full-height Nines, with duty-sized grips, remain OK, but it appears that the Boberg design is not long enough. (I may be mistaken.)

As feats of engineering and craftsmanship, I do truly admire these weapons. I might like to own one, for that reason, alone, someday. And, to shoot lefty, on occasion, of course.

 

[Jim Watson]

A friend has two; one had to go back on warranty, the other started out fine.
He was pleased with them, but he is a member of the Gun Of The Month Club and has long since moved on to something else.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I have never handled these weapons. Visually, well, I would think that the protruding rear part of the slide, and matching protruding tang, would be vexing to conceal, as I learned with Kahrs and Glocks, compared to a spurless-hammer or internal-hammer revolver, or the Seecamp pistols.

Another factor would be the danger to the digits of the support hand, especially the thumb, and, even main part of the support hand, itself, being so near the muzzle, for those who have trained with the more-forward support hand positions. Of course, not everyone has adopted the more-forward support hand positions. I was late to adopt the thumb-forward support hand position, not doing so until I transitioned to a SIG duty pistol in 2004, at age 43, but I put in plenty of training reps, and it is difficult to back-away from that, even though I have been trying to unlearn it, now that I have largely defaulted to revolvers, after retirement from LEO-ing.

In my individual case, such compact pistols are now lefty-only propositions, as I have stopped shooting compact Nines with my now-gimpy right hand. Full-height Nines, with duty-sized grips, remain OK, but it appears that the Boberg design is not long enough. (I may be mistaken.)

As feats of engineering and craftsmanship, I do truly admire these weapons. I might like to own one, for that reason, alone, someday. And, to shoot lefty, on occasion, of course.

As I wrote in the first post, this gun is really intended for experts and not the average gun owner. The two handed hold is what is taught today to gun owners in part because most guns are more range animals than actual close quarters gun fighting, and in part because it is far easier and safer to train people to and when the people are expecting small groups at 25+ yards. Most trainers with experience have either military or uniformed LE backgrounds where the needs of the gun carrier are far different than an undercover officer or civilian carrier.

When we tested all these guns, the goal was close quarters accuracy and speed. None of the holsters were inside the waistband. One (now long discontinued because of Glock and others safety issues) was between the pants and the belt, and the rest were on the belt. The honest truth is, that someone using the "thumbs forward" routine with all of its steps drawing from an inside the waistband holster would have three rounds already in him/her before they had the gun to their chest from someone experienced and trained in close range shooting. We know that is true because we timed it with all of the participants that weekend.

Boberg, not Bond Arms, did come out with a long slide version as he was trying to stay afloat so there are some of them around. For those that really understood the gun however it worked to defeat the purpose of the gun.

BTW: These guns are extremely easy to conceal - even in a pocket. They conceal better than the SA Hellcat and the Sig 365, but, bear in mind that both of these are higher capacity guns. I do carry the Hellcat as a backup.

 

[sgt127]

The honest truth is, that someone using the "thumbs forward" routine with all of its steps drawing from an inside the waistband holster would have three rounds already in him/her before they had the gun to their chest from someone experienced and trained in close range shooting. We know that is true because we timed it with all of the participants that weekend.

Maybe in your group it seemed faster.

Even in 1984 there were people drawing from concealment, flipping off safeties and all the other stuff and putting rounds on target at pretty amazing speeds.



The Boberg/Bond is a neat gun. Cool engineering and design.

The extremely short front end is very hard to stabilize in an appendix holster (which is my preferred carry now).

I tried carrying my HKP7 appendix. It was not a good gun for that as it was butt heavy and has a fairly short slide.

 

[DT Guy]

As I wrote in the first post, this gun is really intended for experts and not the average gun owner. The two handed hold is what is taught today to gun owners in part because most guns are more range animals than actual close quarters gun fighting, and in part because it is far easier and safer to train people to and when the people are expecting small groups at 25+ yards. Most trainers with experience have either military or uniformed LE backgrounds where the needs of the gun carrier are far different than an undercover officer or civilian carrier.

When we tested all these guns, the goal was close quarters accuracy and speed. None of the holsters were inside the waistband. One (now long discontinued because of Glock and others safety issues) was between the pants and the belt, and the rest were on the belt. The honest truth is, that someone using the "thumbs forward" routine with all of its steps drawing from an inside the waistband holster would have three rounds already in him/her before they had the gun to their chest from someone experienced and trained in close range shooting. We know that is true because we timed it with all of the participants that weekend.

Boberg, not Bond Arms, did come out with a long slide version as he was trying to stay afloat so there are some of them around. For those that really understood the gun however it worked to defeat the purpose of the gun.

BTW: These guns are extremely easy to conceal - even in a pocket. They conceal better than the SA Hellcat and the Sig 365, but, bear in mind that both of these are higher capacity guns. I do carry the Hellcat as a backup.

I would suggest you expand your group of 'participants'; the fastest shooters in the world (outside of 'fast draw' cowboy games) use their sights and two hands. It's become the preferred way to get good, fast hits because it works; the crucible of competition defined it, and after action reports from real shootings has confirmed it countless times.

If you've found a better way, why not enter something like the Steel Challenge and prove it?



Larry

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I would suggest you expand your group of 'participants'; the fastest shooters in the world (outside of 'fast draw' cowboy games) use their sights and two hands. It's become the preferred way to get good, fast hits because it works; the crucible of competition defined it, and after action reports from real shootings has confirmed it countless times.

If you've found a better way, why not enter something like the Steel Challenge and prove it?



Larry

Larry

I understand where you are coming from. Almost all of the competitions are weighed to longer ranges than what we shooting. I would not enter any typical events with a Boberg/Bond Arms in the first place, nor would I advocate "instinct" or "point" shooting at ranges longer than ten yards. I used to shoot in law enforcement combat matches before the formation of IPSC and shot for years in SASS. Those and other competitions require aiming, and in most, other than some SASS events, two hands are necessary if one hopes to do well. On that you and I do not disagree. Hell, I use two hands with my Ruger Mark IV when hunting or even to punch paper or pop soft drink cans.

If you want to understand what I was talking about, you need to think about real life situations as a civilian where you need to use your gun to deal with an adversary who also has a knife or gun. Based on every credible after incident study, almost all of those serious social situations happen at 10 yards or less and reaction time is critical. All of the people I have known that have considerable experience in these situations, train for both the longer range situations and the short range situations differently. That includes some pretty famous people like Bob Munden, Bill Oglesby, (my gunsmith) Skeeter Skelton, Charlie Askins and George Nonte. (Three of these people wrote for Shooting Times and often spent time at a Peoria, Illinois range when they came together several times a year at the magazine. I had the good fortune to hang out and shoot with them.) In addition, Fairbaim wrote extensively on the subject. It is only at these close ranges in serious social situations that this type of shooting methods apply.

If I had a bone to pick, which I'm not really interested in doing, it is that some people that train for these competitions arrogantly dismiss the idea that when in the situations I just described (again) they need to learn to shoot from the hip quickly accurately at full size targets.

I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

 

[sgt127]

I kinda get what you’re saying. But, most of the experts you are citing are long gone.

They were good. Good in their time. Shooting techniques have evolved a lot. They came on the heels of when Police training was to shoot the handgun. With one hand. Bladed to the target and single action.

For something more timely, do this. Ive replaced the names of the people you cited with folks from today. Look up some videos of their teachings.

Bob Munden,(Jerry Miculek) Bill Oglesby, (don’t know him) Skeeter Skelton (Mike Seeklander) Charlie Askins (Robbie Leatham) and George Nonte (Taran Butler).

The ability to miss, hip shooting, at 10 yards is very high. The current thinking is to get both hands on the gun and get on the trigger. Unless I’m so close that the bad guy can grab my gun, I’m doing a normal draw, normal presentation. The hit probability goes up astronomically, the couple hundredths of a second are negligible.

Hip shooting, unless at touching distance, is really not the modern technique.

Your Boberg, a nice gun, is for all practical purposes a flat high capacity revolver. Much like what I carry, a Sig P239 DAK.

Best wishes.

 

[DT Guy]

Larry

I understand where you are coming from. Almost all of the competitions are weighed to longer ranges than what we shooting. I would not enter any typical events with a Boberg/Bond Arms in the first place, nor would I advocate "instinct" or "point" shooting at ranges longer than ten yards. I used to shoot in law enforcement combat matches before the formation of IPSC and shot for years in SASS. Those and other competitions require aiming, and in most, other than some SASS events, two hands are necessary if one hopes to do well. On that you and I do not disagree. Hell, I use two hands with my Ruger Mark IV when hunting or even to punch paper or pop soft drink cans.

If you want to understand what I was talking about, you need to think about real life situations as a civilian where you need to use your gun to deal with an adversary who also has a knife or gun. Based on every credible after incident study, almost all of those serious social situations happen at 10 yards or less and reaction time is critical. All of the people I have known that have considerable experience in these situations, train for both the longer range situations and the short range situations differently. That includes some pretty famous people like Bob Munden, Bill Oglesby, (my gunsmith) Skeeter Skelton, Charlie Askins and George Nonte. (Three of these people wrote for Shooting Times and often spent time at a Peoria, Illinois range when they came together several times a year at the magazine. I had the good fortune to hang out and shoot with them.) In addition, Fairbaim wrote extensively on the subject. It is only at these close ranges in serious social situations that this type of shooting methods apply.

If I had a bone to pick, which I'm not really interested in doing, it is that some people that train for these competitions arrogantly dismiss the idea that when in the situations I just described (again) they need to learn to shoot from the hip quickly accurately at full size targets.

I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

No ruffled feathers-just looking for demonstrable proof that hip shooting can be more effective than sighted fire.
I spent a week training with Matt Burkett, at the time a top tier competitor; he could consistently place 2 shots from a holstered gun onto an IPSC target 'A' zone at around .89-.94 seconds from the buzzer. He used two hands and sighted fire to do it.
I've seen other IDPA and IPSC competitors engage very short range targets very, very quickly-all used two handed sighted fire.
I'm willing to believe hip firing can be 'better', but would need to see it demonstrated; the weight of 30+ years of competitive experience is against it.

Larry

 

[bdickens]

It has been proven over and over again that there is no appreciable difference in time between hip shooting and bringing the pistol up to eye level so you can aim it.

There is, however, an appreciable difference in the ability to get consistent accuracy.

 

[Paul Lerner]

Very interesting firearm and ensuing discussion. I’ve owned a Boberg XR9-L since they originally arrived on the market and love it. Purchased the Bond Bullpup when it came available with the internal coating. Once I tried it I send the longer barreled XR9L off and had it interior parts treated by the same provider. Both guns now work flawlessly and neither require tons of addin grease to keep running! I frequently trade off carrying one of these with one of my HK P7 PSPs but find the Boberg/Bond guns are easier to carry.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I like the looks of the bullpup pistols. The long guns never appealed to me.

 

[Pat Riot]

I think that maybe the reason you don’t see more on these guns is that they aren’t exactly growing on trees. I have actually never seen one in person. Of course, now. Live in CA (not for much longer) and neither gun is on the roster. Been here right at 3 years.

I did notice in your initial post that you tested the Boberg. Isn’t that your wife’s gun and would she be upset if you broke it? You’re playing with fire, son.

 

[OcelotZ3]

Very interesting firearm and ensuing discussion. I’ve owned a Boberg XR9-L since they originally arrived on the market and love it. Purchased the Bond Bullpup when it came available with the internal coating. Once I tried it I send the longer barreled XR9L off and had it interior parts treated by the same provider. Both guns now work flawlessly and neither require tons of addin grease to keep running! I frequently trade off carrying one of these with one of my HK P7 PSPs but find the Boberg/Bond guns are easier to carry.

Where did you send your Boberg to, to have the internals coated? Is it just parts or the entire gun, and I suspect they know what they need to do?

I have an XR9S, XR9L, and XR45S.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I think that maybe the reason you don’t see more on these guns is that they aren’t exactly growing on trees. I have actually never seen one in person. Of course, now. Live in CA (not for much longer) and neither gun is on the roster. Been here right at 3 years.

I did notice in your initial post that you tested the Boberg. Isn’t that your wife’s gun and would she be upset if you broke it? You’re playing with fire, son.

Sorry it took so long to reply. Who do you think was on our testing team?

 

[TTv2]

I don't really see what it offers me at the $1000 it typically costs. I generally don't like DAO, some guns in DAO work better for me than others, but if given the choice I'd rather have DA/SA or a striker. The most important is I don't think these are reliable, I see a complex design and action which means more parts that can fail and cause malfunctions, plus even in good working order the guns are ammo picky and a gun being ammo picky in the midst of a multi year long ammo shortage is about as useful as a hole in a bucket.

You can respect and admire the quality and craftsmanship and innovation all you want, but that alone does not a great gun make. This is really an issue I have with Bond Arms in that they are a high quality shop, yet their two products are funky pistols catered more for collectors than actual shooters.

 

[armoredman]

It is a very interesting gun with a system that nobody else is using, so I assume the patent is still valid. I find it fascinating, the same level of fascination, say, with a Steyr M1912. I think Oleg Volk was quite taken with them when they were Boberg, and I handled one at SHOT 2015. It doesn't fit me, and that is the most important thing for me. If the gun doesn't fit me, it won't work right for me, so I will stay traditional with my CZ P-10C.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Not opposed to weird guns (own two Rhinos.... ), but it isn't clear to me exactly what is gained in its rearward positioned action. Is it more barrel length for the same overall length? This is the main argument for rifle bullpups, at the expense of some ergonomic issues. Have an MSAR AUG, love the thing, but it doesn't feel all that good in the hands.
As regards aimed fire, the problem remains of ownership of every bullet fired. As is true for the cops, we legally armed citizens have to make our first rule 'do no harm'. If hipshooting works for some, so be it, but I'll acknowledge that I'm not that great without actually aiming.
How thick and heavy are they? Love to handle one for grits and shins; as others have noted, they are pretty thin on the ground.
Moon

 

[GONRA]

GONRA asks those who like the Boberg / Bond Arms "Bull Pups"
to torp ps" to

 

[GONRA]

GONRA asks those who like the Boberg / Bond Arms "Bull Pups"
to torque Bond Arms to manufacture and sell their Bull Pup 45's!

 

[zaitcev]

I hate automatics that don't lock back on empty. I think that adding that basic feature was the biggest improvement Ruger did in LCP II over the original KelTec. Even communists had a bolt stop in Makarov.