Interesting stoppage: Polycase Inceptor and Bond Arms Bullpup

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kemikos

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Had an interesting malfunction at the range the other day; thought I'd see if anyone else has noticed anything similar.

Quick background: I'm shooting a Bond Arms Bullpup. It has an unusual loading cycle that pulls the round backwards out of the magazine, raises it in line with the barrel, then pushes it forward into the chamber. Because of this, certain brands of ammunition (particularly cheap target ammo in which the bullet is not crimped into the case) can cause jams when the bullet separates from the case. Bond has an extensive list of tested and approved ammunition, and in the interest of expanding the list, I try to shoot at least one new brand of ammo at each range outing. The gun has never had a single stoppage with an approved round, and until this trip I haven't had any with untested rounds either. (Excluding the Polycase Inceptor rounds which are the subject of this report, I'm up to 1500+ rounds through the gun without a hiccup.)

If you read my original range report from last year when I got the gun, you might remember that one of the first non-approved rounds I tried was the Ruger ARX in 9mm+P, and that it worked flawlessly. I've fired over 120 rounds of it without a hitch.

When I went to buy ammo for this range trip, I saw that the store had a box of Polycase Inceptor rounds, so I decided to try them as my untested ammo for this trip. I knew that Polycase makes the ARX metal/polymer hybrid bullets for the Ruger ammo, and I assumed that the Inceptor rounds (which also use an ARX bullet) would be pretty much the same, other than being standard pressure instead of +P.

That turns out not to be the case. Right off the bat, as I unpacked the rounds, I could see that where the Ruger bullets had a rounded, more "blunt" tip, the Polycase rounds were a more tapered "conical" shape, with significantly smaller "flutes".

IMG_20180414_113815454_HDR.jpg

On the third round with the new ammunition, the slide failed to return to battery. When I cleared the jam, I found that the bullet had broken off at the point where it meets the case:

IMG_20180414_113659969.jpg

As you can see, this happened three times out of the box of twenty rounds. Obviously I won't be using this particular ammunition in this gun going forward; it's very surprising, though, considering the success with the more powerful Ruger variant.

I've heard a lot of good things about the Polycase rounds from people using them in more traditional pistols, so don't take this as a general criticism of the round; more like, if you're using a round with polymer/metal sintered bullets like these in a gun with an unusual loading cycle, or one that's known to be rough on ammo, make sure you test it thoroughly before relying on it.

At a guess, I suspect the device that lifts the round into position is hitting the round against something with enough force to crack the bullet. I'm not sure why it didn't happen with the heavier, more powerful Ruger bullets; while the tip is thicker, it's the same diameter at the point where the Polycase rounds cracked. Maybe they're a different mix of materials in addition to the different shape?
 

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Very interesting. Certainly a good tidbit to be aware of. Thanks for sharing!

It’s also interesting to know that gun has been doing well for you. I always assumed they were just kind of a novelty.
 
Very interesting. Certainly a good tidbit to be aware of. Thanks for sharing!

It’s also interesting to know that gun has been doing well for you. I always assumed they were just kind of a novelty.

Yeah, whatever Bond did to solve the problems Boberg struggled with, they knocked this one out of the park.
 
Automatic self loaders are rough on bullets. Nature of the beast. Thanks for the report, a new technology isn't always compatible with other concurrent developments in the same field. Who knew?

This round does fall under the listing of "frangible." The FBI barrier fans are already clucking their tongues that it will fail and therefore isn't suitable at all for self defense, on the other hand the performance seems to promise the CCW user some benefits plus reduced liability concerns where the police are often shielded by immunity.

Looking forward to seeing how it performs in a revolver. Sounds like it would be a slam dunk but then again, how does a bonded plastic compound react to enough crimp to keep it in a casing under recoil when fired from +P loadings, and how does it handle forcing cones?

It's still a brave new world working with polymers even 40 years after the HK VP70. Which is why I have a 10 round Lancer mag with steel lips for my hunting AR during subfreezing temps.

"Plastics. There's a great future is plastics. Think about it. " : )
 
I liked the 380 ARX. It worked well in my pistols and, as has been mentioned, may reduce liability as the user has intentionally chosen ammunition that is stated my the manufacturer to reduce to risk to bystanders. The trouble is that it has become very hard to find. When it can be found, it is quite expensive.

All that being said, I have not had any stoppages with it. I am not trying to be disparaging of the Bond, however, it is an innovative design that may impart unusual stresses on the ammunition.
 
Do some research on Underwood Ammo there extreme defender rounds are solid copper. Your unique feeding system required testing but I like the penetration capabilities with the Underwood ammo. In today's world, for carry outside my home, I would much prefer the ability to be confident that my round will continue on a straight path after penetrating a windshield, car door, or some other barrier.
My 2¢
 
Do some research on Underwood Ammo there extreme defender rounds are solid copper.
My 2¢

A week or so after the Polycase issue I went back to the range with three boxes of Underwood XD to test. Happy to report another flawless range trip. :cool:
 
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I have never fired your type of gun or had any problem with the ammo. I do try and read everything I c on Polycase. I do "carry" this ammo in an M649 in .38spl. I have never had a problem. I know that doesn't really add anything to the discussion but thanks for posting.
 
A week or so after the Polycase issue I went back to the range with three boxes of Underwood XD to test. Happy to report another flawless range trip. :cool:

Yesterday I received my small supply of Underwood XD in 9mm for reliability testing in my carry guns. I ran a few through my Sig P365 with no issues and outstanding accuracy. Now on to my Kahr PM9 and a P226 and M11A1. Wish practice ammo wasn't so costly.
 
have you examined the broken bullets for any signs of striking something? From what I remember about the design, the elevator only touches the case. Unless the round is over long I'm not sure how the bullet tip could strike anything, except the end of the barrel.
Did you happen to note in what order the 3 of 20 rounds failed?
 
One possibility is that the forward magazine guards (those surrounding the bullet, not the case) are being impacted by the rising cartridge before the brass impacts the main feed lips. If that happens, there can be a shear force which puts a fault in the bullet at the case mouth. The bullet might then shear off on loading into the chamber.
Can you put some kind of thin coating or marker on the polymer bullets and look for traces of those forward magazine guard impressions on the bullets when they fail?
 
I think this fluid transfer bullet technology is the way to go but the monolithic copper bullets from Lehigh Defense/Underwood make better sense. I use them for woods carry in 9MM and .357 Sig.
 
Thanks for the report. Those Bond bullpups are interesting. So far they've received good reviews. It's always fun to read about someone's experience testing the boundaries. Especially when a rather unique event occurs as in your case.
 
Had an interesting malfunction at the range the other day; thought I'd see if anyone else has noticed anything similar.

Quick background: I'm shooting a Bond Arms Bullpup. It has an unusual loading cycle that pulls the round backwards out of the magazine, raises it in line with the barrel, then pushes it forward into the chamber. Because of this, certain brands of ammunition (particularly cheap target ammo in which the bullet is not crimped into the case) can cause jams when the bullet separates from the case. Bond has an extensive list of tested and approved ammunition, and in the interest of expanding the list, I try to shoot at least one new brand of ammo at each range outing. The gun has never had a single stoppage with an approved round, and until this trip I haven't had any with untested rounds either. (Excluding the Polycase Inceptor rounds which are the subject of this report, I'm up to 1500+ rounds through the gun without a hiccup.)

If you read my original range report from last year when I got the gun, you might remember that one of the first non-approved rounds I tried was the Ruger ARX in 9mm+P, and that it worked flawlessly. I've fired over 120 rounds of it without a hitch.

When I went to buy ammo for this range trip, I saw that the store had a box of Polycase Inceptor rounds, so I decided to try them as my untested ammo for this trip. I knew that Polycase makes the ARX metal/polymer hybrid bullets for the Ruger ammo, and I assumed that the Inceptor rounds (which also use an ARX bullet) would be pretty much the same, other than being standard pressure instead of +P.

That turns out not to be the case. Right off the bat, as I unpacked the rounds, I could see that where the Ruger bullets had a rounded, more "blunt" tip, the Polycase rounds were a more tapered "conical" shape, with significantly smaller "flutes".

View attachment 786461

On the third round with the new ammunition, the slide failed to return to battery. When I cleared the jam, I found that the bullet had broken off at the point where it meets the case:

View attachment 786460

As you can see, this happened three times out of the box of twenty rounds. Obviously I won't be using this particular ammunition in this gun going forward; it's very surprising, though, considering the success with the more powerful Ruger variant.

I've heard a lot of good things about the Polycase rounds from people using them in more traditional pistols, so don't take this as a general criticism of the round; more like, if you're using a round with polymer/metal sintered bullets like these in a gun with an unusual loading cycle, or one that's known to be rough on ammo, make sure you test it thoroughly before relying on it.

At a guess, I suspect the device that lifts the round into position is hitting the round against something with enough force to crack the bullet. I'm not sure why it didn't happen with the heavier, more powerful Ruger bullets; while the tip is thicker, it's the same diameter at the point where the Polycase rounds cracked. Maybe they're a different mix of materials in addition to the different shape?


HELP! I have a problem with the new ' INCEPTOR ARX ' 9mm 65 gr bullets. The load data they give on their web site is not good. I have tried everything they suggest up to the MAX +P loads. The cartridges shoot fine, but they will not eject. I am leary of loading much more on the +P max. The powders that I have are HP-38, TightGroup, and Autocomp. I am shooting from a Springfield XDM Compact. I would like to stick to one of these powders if possible. Do you have any loads that might help.
Any suggestions please.
 
HELP! I have a problem with the new ' INCEPTOR ARX ' 9mm 65 gr bullets. The load data they give on their web site is not good. I have tried everything they suggest up to the MAX +P loads. The cartridges shoot fine, but they will not eject. I am leary of loading much more on the +P max. The powders that I have are HP-38, TightGroup, and Autocomp. I am shooting from a Springfield XDM Compact. I would like to stick to one of these powders if possible. Do you have any loads that might help.
Any suggestions please.

Sorry friend, I've only used the factory-loaded ARX ammo. Hopefully someone else can help you with that...
 
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