Tuner: Thank you for the excellent guidance. Before I detail strip my Colt, I plan to buy Kunhausen's book on how to disassemble a 1911. I am new to 1911s and have a lot to learn. They are facinating, and I look forward to the task. No sprues!
Anyone else here think a bone-stock Colt is the king of 1911s?
- Thread starter Drjones
- Start date
- Status
Black Majik
Member
Hmm... yes and no.
Colt in general I feel is a great 1911, but definitely not the king of 1911's. The feel is smooth and sleek, but simply put, most of the Colts I've felt and fondled are not nearly as tight as the upper end 1911's.
Furthermore, I also find my Series I Kimber to be slightly more accurate than the Government S80 I own. The only real thing I find going for the Colt is that they didn't feel the need to jump on the bandwagon and add front slide serrations on their base model gun.
Now, as for a base gun to customize? I would look no further than a regular ol' NRM Colt in either S70 or S80. They are still very smooth guns outta the box and damn right reliable.
Kings of 1911's to me would be some higher end, semi-custom form such as Wilsons, Ed Browns, Les Baers, etc...
Colt in general I feel is a great 1911, but definitely not the king of 1911's. The feel is smooth and sleek, but simply put, most of the Colts I've felt and fondled are not nearly as tight as the upper end 1911's.
Furthermore, I also find my Series I Kimber to be slightly more accurate than the Government S80 I own. The only real thing I find going for the Colt is that they didn't feel the need to jump on the bandwagon and add front slide serrations on their base model gun.
Now, as for a base gun to customize? I would look no further than a regular ol' NRM Colt in either S70 or S80. They are still very smooth guns outta the box and damn right reliable.
Kings of 1911's to me would be some higher end, semi-custom form such as Wilsons, Ed Browns, Les Baers, etc...
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Detail Strip
Unitman, mah fren...Say no more! Scroll down to the detail-strip threads.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61238
Maestro...A little Gypsy Rose Lee music if you please.
Tuner
Unitman, mah fren...Say no more! Scroll down to the detail-strip threads.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61238
Maestro...A little Gypsy Rose Lee music if you please.
Tuner
Tamara
Senior Member
Drjones,
While new Colts are certainly fine guns and some of the best deals on the market today, I'd hesitate to call a gun with a plastic mainspring housing, MIM sear, and Series 80 goofiness screwing up the trigger, the "best" just out of general principles. The Best 1911 is still a bare frame sitting at Caspian and a stack of cash.
While new Colts are certainly fine guns and some of the best deals on the market today, I'd hesitate to call a gun with a plastic mainspring housing, MIM sear, and Series 80 goofiness screwing up the trigger, the "best" just out of general principles. The Best 1911 is still a bare frame sitting at Caspian and a stack of cash.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Caspian and Cash
Tamara said:
While the new Colts are certainly fine guns and some of the best deals on the market today, I'd hesitate to call a gun with a plastic mainspring housing, MIM sear, and Series 80 goofiness screwing up the trigger, the "best" just out of general principles. The Best 1911 is still a bare frame sitting at Caspian and a stack of cash.
-------------------------------------------
Forsooth! Methinks Tamara just hit on somethin' here. Now, if we could
just talk Caspian into producing a no-frills pistol for the market. I'd bet that
they could do it for a little more than a Loaded Springer...maybe in the
neighborhood of 900-1,000 bucks. I'd buy one!
Tamara? *clink* Cheers!
Tuner
Tamara said:
While the new Colts are certainly fine guns and some of the best deals on the market today, I'd hesitate to call a gun with a plastic mainspring housing, MIM sear, and Series 80 goofiness screwing up the trigger, the "best" just out of general principles. The Best 1911 is still a bare frame sitting at Caspian and a stack of cash.
-------------------------------------------
Forsooth! Methinks Tamara just hit on somethin' here. Now, if we could
just talk Caspian into producing a no-frills pistol for the market. I'd bet that
they could do it for a little more than a Loaded Springer...maybe in the
neighborhood of 900-1,000 bucks. I'd buy one!
Tamara? *clink* Cheers!
Tuner
FPrice
Member
"Is there anyone else who just thinks the original brand is best and doesn't like all the bells and whistles found on many other 1911s?"
I prefer the original Colt M1911A1 with a few modest improvements. High visibility sights, rubber grips, and a long trigger being the main ones, with possibly a little internal smoothing as required. I have found that the arched mainspring housing works better for me than the flat housing.
Your mileage may vary.
I prefer the original Colt M1911A1 with a few modest improvements. High visibility sights, rubber grips, and a long trigger being the main ones, with possibly a little internal smoothing as required. I have found that the arched mainspring housing works better for me than the flat housing.
Your mileage may vary.
Frankly 45
Member
"Anyone else here think a bone-stock Colt is the king of 1911s?"
That would be me! (of course along with the 45acp being king of the semi-auto calibers, and the 1911 being the king of semi-auto platforms
)
Good shooting!
Frank
That would be me! (of course along with the 45acp being king of the semi-auto calibers, and the 1911 being the king of semi-auto platforms
)Good shooting!
Frank
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
A bit of a myth, unless you are trying to get your trigger under 3 pounds or something. There are alot of non-Series 80 guns out there with inferior trigger pulls to Colt's current Series 80-equipped 01991 guns. Heck, the actual Series 70 Colts I've gotten to play with had worse trigger pulls than the stock 01991 gun I had.
Majik...
"The feel is smooth and sleek, but simply put, most of the Colts I've felt and fondled are not nearly as tight as the upper end 1911's."
The question is- how tight does it need to be?
My '91 Commander, with the stock barrel and bushing, would plant three Federal 230 Hydra-Shoks in under 3 1/4" @ 50 yards, right to the top of the front sight, and do it all day if you could hold it that close. Without jamming. It wasn't "tight" when you wiggled the slide, but it was "tight enough" in battery- where it counts. Making the gun tight throughout the entire slide travel invites malfs when the gun gets dirty. It wasn't designed to work like that. Full-blown bulleye guns, that have been tightened and tuned, only shoot about an inch and a half better at 50 yards- with the best match ammunition money can buy. My old AMU-built Ithaca (7-digit stainless NM barrel) would beat the '91 Commander by about an inch. It would choke sooner, too. IS that extra 1.5" inches of accuracy worth $1500, or a reduced reliability under extreme conditions?
That's a question only you can answer for yourself. For me, it isn't. I'll stick to the original blueprint, and avoid the problem entirely.
Oh, and Tam- I was suspicious of the 80's Series safteies for a long, long time. After 20 years I finally pronounced them reliable (something I can't say for the Schwartz and other pretenders) and figured out that a light deburring and polish was all it took to make the trigger bug-a-boo go away. I'll back whoever said that the newer Colts have triggers that are actually better than the 70's guns- and they are a world more reliable. I'm no gunsmith by any stretch of the imagination, and I'd bet that I can slick up an '80 or '91 to where you can barely tell any difference. I shot long-trigger guns for a long time, and finally figured out that for precise trigger control, the old checkered-face short GI trigger was better than anything- and it didn't cost me a thing in speed shooting.
"The feel is smooth and sleek, but simply put, most of the Colts I've felt and fondled are not nearly as tight as the upper end 1911's."
The question is- how tight does it need to be?
My '91 Commander, with the stock barrel and bushing, would plant three Federal 230 Hydra-Shoks in under 3 1/4" @ 50 yards, right to the top of the front sight, and do it all day if you could hold it that close. Without jamming. It wasn't "tight" when you wiggled the slide, but it was "tight enough" in battery- where it counts. Making the gun tight throughout the entire slide travel invites malfs when the gun gets dirty. It wasn't designed to work like that. Full-blown bulleye guns, that have been tightened and tuned, only shoot about an inch and a half better at 50 yards- with the best match ammunition money can buy. My old AMU-built Ithaca (7-digit stainless NM barrel) would beat the '91 Commander by about an inch. It would choke sooner, too. IS that extra 1.5" inches of accuracy worth $1500, or a reduced reliability under extreme conditions?
That's a question only you can answer for yourself. For me, it isn't. I'll stick to the original blueprint, and avoid the problem entirely.
Oh, and Tam- I was suspicious of the 80's Series safteies for a long, long time. After 20 years I finally pronounced them reliable (something I can't say for the Schwartz and other pretenders) and figured out that a light deburring and polish was all it took to make the trigger bug-a-boo go away. I'll back whoever said that the newer Colts have triggers that are actually better than the 70's guns- and they are a world more reliable. I'm no gunsmith by any stretch of the imagination, and I'd bet that I can slick up an '80 or '91 to where you can barely tell any difference. I shot long-trigger guns for a long time, and finally figured out that for precise trigger control, the old checkered-face short GI trigger was better than anything- and it didn't cost me a thing in speed shooting.
Last edited:
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Minor Correction
Ahhh..Thanks Schmackey. I was under the impression that Colt had abandoned investment casting in the late 90's and gone to MIM for their
grip safeties. Not confirmed...just hearsay.
Tuner<------Stands corrected.
Ahhh..Thanks Schmackey. I was under the impression that Colt had abandoned investment casting in the late 90's and gone to MIM for their
grip safeties. Not confirmed...just hearsay.
Tuner<------Stands corrected.
Most recent
The latest I've heard about Colt parts:
Made from forged steel
Slide, Frame, Barrel
Made from machined barstock
Barrel Bushing, Slide Stop, Extractor, Firing Pin, Hammer, Recoil Plug, Barrel Link, Grip Screw Bushings, Sights, All Pins
Investment cast
Thumb Safety, Grip Safety, Plunger Tube
Stamped steel
Firing Pin Stop, Springs, Trigger Bow (alloy or steel finger pad)
MIM (Metal Injection Molded)
Magazine Catch, Mag Catch Lock, Sear, Disconnector
Molded nylon
Mainspring Housing
Three to four MIM parts, depending on how you envision the mag catch. The hammer and slide stop are barstock; even the sights are barstock. That's a far sight better than Brands K and S are doing, clearly. Plus, the parts that are MIM are easily replaced (mag catch) or scrapped when you do a trigger job (sear, disconnector).
Now we see why plenty of folks consider a polished, blued NRM Colt for $540 to be a better deal than a $420 Springer Mil-Spec.
The latest I've heard about Colt parts:
Made from forged steel
Slide, Frame, Barrel
Made from machined barstock
Barrel Bushing, Slide Stop, Extractor, Firing Pin, Hammer, Recoil Plug, Barrel Link, Grip Screw Bushings, Sights, All Pins
Investment cast
Thumb Safety, Grip Safety, Plunger Tube
Stamped steel
Firing Pin Stop, Springs, Trigger Bow (alloy or steel finger pad)
MIM (Metal Injection Molded)
Magazine Catch, Mag Catch Lock, Sear, Disconnector
Molded nylon
Mainspring Housing
Three to four MIM parts, depending on how you envision the mag catch. The hammer and slide stop are barstock; even the sights are barstock. That's a far sight better than Brands K and S are doing, clearly. Plus, the parts that are MIM are easily replaced (mag catch) or scrapped when you do a trigger job (sear, disconnector).
Now we see why plenty of folks consider a polished, blued NRM Colt for $540 to be a better deal than a $420 Springer Mil-Spec.
PigPen
Member
I say add what you want.....
I own (fast count here mentally) approximately 10 1911s in various states of customization. They range from a built from scratch Caspian (or two) commander size pistol, through a custom shop no holes barred Springfield, two Colt lightweight Commanders (one "improved" with trigger, slide stop, barrel,...) to a bone stock Colt MK-4 series 70. I also have several in between. I REQUIRE ALL OF THEM TO FUNCTION RELIABLY....and I like them all and shoot them all.
To me, the issue is reliability. I do not go to the range to work on pistols and I certainly do not carry anything that is "unreliable".
Add what you want........hire a good smith........require them to be reliable.
PigPen
I own (fast count here mentally) approximately 10 1911s in various states of customization. They range from a built from scratch Caspian (or two) commander size pistol, through a custom shop no holes barred Springfield, two Colt lightweight Commanders (one "improved" with trigger, slide stop, barrel,...) to a bone stock Colt MK-4 series 70. I also have several in between. I REQUIRE ALL OF THEM TO FUNCTION RELIABLY....and I like them all and shoot them all.
To me, the issue is reliability. I do not go to the range to work on pistols and I certainly do not carry anything that is "unreliable".
Add what you want........hire a good smith........require them to be reliable.
PigPen
Hey TUNER... a quick question
pertaining mostly to Commanders.
For all my fiddlin' with 11's, I have never been inside one of the NRM '91 Colts. I note that the have changed what used to be the "throat" of their barrels into a little "dimple' at 6 o'clock... which is said to improve reliability with HP ammo.
Do you think this was really an improvement? and...
since I have had such good luck with the throated barrels of "ugly roll mark" Colts, could I just swap out barrels with a NRM, or did they alter the frame feedramp to accomodate the dimpled barrels?
Just curious... as I said earlier, it took me 20 years to pronounce the FP safety reliable- and I'd like to know that I have the option of using the old throat style in a NRM gun, before I buy one.
Closer to the blueprint....
pertaining mostly to Commanders.
For all my fiddlin' with 11's, I have never been inside one of the NRM '91 Colts. I note that the have changed what used to be the "throat" of their barrels into a little "dimple' at 6 o'clock... which is said to improve reliability with HP ammo.
Do you think this was really an improvement? and...
since I have had such good luck with the throated barrels of "ugly roll mark" Colts, could I just swap out barrels with a NRM, or did they alter the frame feedramp to accomodate the dimpled barrels?
Just curious... as I said earlier, it took me 20 years to pronounce the FP safety reliable- and I'd like to know that I have the option of using the old throat style in a NRM gun, before I buy one.
Closer to the blueprint....
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Dimple Throats
Howdy Sarge,
The new design barrel throats are generally very good, and I've only run into a couple that I had to recut back to the old style throat, (Remember
when that meant Hardball throat?) or open up the dimple a little for
best feeding. I have two different approaches to feeding, depending on
whether the gun is to be carried or will live life as a range queen.
The main advantage that I can see is that they allow for feeding hollowpoints and maintain case head support as well as the GI thorats did,
and in that respect, it is an improvement...even though I've never blown a case head with the older style throats. I guess some handloader who
rushes in where angels fear to tread might possibly bust one, though.
It might be just the ticket for the .45 Super round...maybe Colt saw that
one comin'.
The NRM slides are cut for the narrow hood barrels, and swapping an old
design barrel into one would require fitting. The ramps are the same.
I'd leave it be and see how it works out. Like I said, 99% of'em do fine,
even though they look like they wouldn't feed any better than a hardball throat...many of which will feed hollowpoints anyway, especially the
Remington Golden Sabers and Winchester Black talons.
Hope this helps,
Tuner
Howdy Sarge,
The new design barrel throats are generally very good, and I've only run into a couple that I had to recut back to the old style throat, (Remember
when that meant Hardball throat?) or open up the dimple a little for
best feeding. I have two different approaches to feeding, depending on
whether the gun is to be carried or will live life as a range queen.
The main advantage that I can see is that they allow for feeding hollowpoints and maintain case head support as well as the GI thorats did,
and in that respect, it is an improvement...even though I've never blown a case head with the older style throats. I guess some handloader who
rushes in where angels fear to tread might possibly bust one, though.
It might be just the ticket for the .45 Super round...maybe Colt saw that
one comin'.
The NRM slides are cut for the narrow hood barrels, and swapping an old
design barrel into one would require fitting. The ramps are the same.
I'd leave it be and see how it works out. Like I said, 99% of'em do fine,
even though they look like they wouldn't feed any better than a hardball throat...many of which will feed hollowpoints anyway, especially the
Remington Golden Sabers and Winchester Black talons.
Hope this helps,
Tuner
Narrow hoods...
THAT was what I forgot about the NRM Colts- and thanks for reminding me.
I don't know what ever possessed them to fiddle with the hood in such a manner, but a lot of Colt's management decisions have eluded me. There are plenty of ol' "Ugly roll mark" guns around, and if I buy another 1911 it'll likely be one of those. Any handgun gun I buy gets shot & carried plenty.
I can tell you this- a couple of years with a good Sig 220 can make it pretty hard to think about packing anything else.
THAT was what I forgot about the NRM Colts- and thanks for reminding me.
I don't know what ever possessed them to fiddle with the hood in such a manner, but a lot of Colt's management decisions have eluded me. There are plenty of ol' "Ugly roll mark" guns around, and if I buy another 1911 it'll likely be one of those. Any handgun gun I buy gets shot & carried plenty.
I can tell you this- a couple of years with a good Sig 220 can make it pretty hard to think about packing anything else.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re: Narrow Hoods
Sarge said:
I don't know what ever possessed them to fiddle with the hood in such a manner.
Me neither, but it might have had somethin' to do with an owner with a
shot-out barrel feelin' the need to buy one from Colt instead of doin' the
Storm Lake or Kart shuffle. Marketing strategy, methinks...
Who knows? I never could figger a reason for two different width hoods
to start with...
Cheers!
Tuner
Sarge said:
I don't know what ever possessed them to fiddle with the hood in such a manner.
Me neither, but it might have had somethin' to do with an owner with a
shot-out barrel feelin' the need to buy one from Colt instead of doin' the
Storm Lake or Kart shuffle. Marketing strategy, methinks...
Who knows? I never could figger a reason for two different width hoods
to start with...
Cheers!
Tuner
45R
Member
I like those Series 70 Gold Cups but I dont think they are the King of 1911s.
but I dont think they are the King of 1911s.Well, a 1991A1 with less than 5 pounds would be really nice!
And I've played with many non-monkey-motion pre-Series 80 Colts that had wonderfully clean triggers, without requiring gunsmith intervention. Several of them were issued to me by Uncle Sam himself, before the current M9 silliness. Your point is?
Unless you're forced to live in one of those litigation-prone states that require it, it's an unnecessary part of any 1911 variant. If it's the only 1911 you can find in your neck of the woods, so be it.
I got a divorce-sale deal a while ago on a Kimber lightweight shorty, Series II, grip-safety activated monkey motion, but sweet trigger for a carry gun. I bought it with the idea that I'd sell it for a little profit. I've still got it, and run just over 1K rounds through it. Other than changing out the recoil spring, I've done nothing to it - and I'm still waiting for that failure-prone internal firing pin safety to get me killed.
Which is the beauty, all things considered, in being able to choose a non-OSHA-approved Caspian, Springfield, Norinco, or other as-JMB-designed 1911. Or am I not protected enough from myself, are my Caspians and Norincos a liability in themselves?
And I've played with many non-monkey-motion pre-Series 80 Colts that had wonderfully clean triggers, without requiring gunsmith intervention. Several of them were issued to me by Uncle Sam himself, before the current M9 silliness. Your point is?
Unless you're forced to live in one of those litigation-prone states that require it, it's an unnecessary part of any 1911 variant. If it's the only 1911 you can find in your neck of the woods, so be it.
I got a divorce-sale deal a while ago on a Kimber lightweight shorty, Series II, grip-safety activated monkey motion, but sweet trigger for a carry gun. I bought it with the idea that I'd sell it for a little profit. I've still got it, and run just over 1K rounds through it. Other than changing out the recoil spring, I've done nothing to it - and I'm still waiting for that failure-prone internal firing pin safety to get me killed.
Which is the beauty, all things considered, in being able to choose a non-OSHA-approved Caspian, Springfield, Norinco, or other as-JMB-designed 1911. Or am I not protected enough from myself, are my Caspians and Norincos a liability in themselves?
Tuner: Thank you for the url for the disassembly instructions. Are there any specific sizes of drifts that you recommend for removing the 1911 pins? Also, can disassembly be done without messing up the finish? Do the pins need to be replaced after removal. By the way, I pumped 100 rnds of Remington 230 grn FMJ through the Commander today. It is very accurate and shoots tight groups, at least when I do my part. I did not think it possible for me to find a pistol that I like better than my SIG P225, but I think my Colt does it. In fact, I expect to acquire a full size govt model, either a Colt or SW1911 before I think of acquiring any other tools. I just love the way a 1911 feels.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Drifts
Howdy unitman,
No drifts necessary. A nail that'll fit the holes will work. If you've got an
AR-15 or M-16 firing pin, you've got the perfect takedown tool. In its
original form, the frame and slide could be gutted using its own parts as tools, and just a little ingenuity will still allow that option with a Series 80.
Going back together will require an alignment/slave pin for the trigger bar
lever...The M-16 firing pin is nearly perfect for the task.
The pins will push out easily, and don't need to be replaced. The exception is the mainspring housing pin. Lowering the hammer will make it a lot easier though.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
Howdy unitman,
No drifts necessary. A nail that'll fit the holes will work. If you've got an
AR-15 or M-16 firing pin, you've got the perfect takedown tool. In its
original form, the frame and slide could be gutted using its own parts as tools, and just a little ingenuity will still allow that option with a Series 80.
Going back together will require an alignment/slave pin for the trigger bar
lever...The M-16 firing pin is nearly perfect for the task.
The pins will push out easily, and don't need to be replaced. The exception is the mainspring housing pin. Lowering the hammer will make it a lot easier though.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
My ONLY complaint with a 1919 vintage Govt model Colt is the tiny sights. My only complaint about my '53 vintage Commander was Coltwood grips (sadly now cracked and in a baggie) replaced w/walnut, and hammerbite.
I guess they don't make them like they used to, but my understanding was Colt stilluses the least # of MIM parts.. if not zero?
I guess they don't make them like they used to, but my understanding was Colt stilluses the least # of MIM parts.. if not zero?
BluesBear
member
Hallelujah Bretheren, can I get an AMEN!?
Bells and whistles be damned. Gimme a good old made to GMB/GI spec and I am a happy camper.
Now I must confess that I do "personalize" my everyday guns a tab bit. I like the old machined solid short triggers. But any short trigger will do.
I LOVE the old 1911 wide hammer, but I can live with a real pre-70 or 70 style. You can have all of those new fangled enlongatedovalspeed things.
I prefer the original Colt wide grip safety over any other makers "beavertails" (no Tamara I really do not need a higher grip
)
I do install an ambi safety.
I usually lower the ejection port if it needs it but unless it is made flared I don't bother with it. Same for the magazine well, I just round off the sharp edges if it needs it.
I prefer a flat mainspring housing but i don't really care if it's steel or aluminum or nylon. Doesn't matter if it's serrated or checkered or even smooth. I can live with an arched if I have to.
Gimme a good set of wood or even GI plastic grips and I'm happy. I can't stand the wrap around Pachmayr type, throws my entire grip off.
All the stuff I do is just personal preference. If all I had was a real GI spec pistol I could get by quite well.
The most important stuff is the 3 F's, Feeding, Fireing and Flinging out the empties.
For a fightin' gun that's all you really need.
As for as the Series 80 trigger pull...
Several people who have shot any of mine have commented how much better they feel without all that "extra crap". I delight in telling them that it's all still inside.
Bells and whistles be damned. Gimme a good old made to GMB/GI spec and I am a happy camper.
Now I must confess that I do "personalize" my everyday guns a tab bit. I like the old machined solid short triggers. But any short trigger will do.
I LOVE the old 1911 wide hammer, but I can live with a real pre-70 or 70 style. You can have all of those new fangled enlongatedovalspeed things.
I prefer the original Colt wide grip safety over any other makers "beavertails" (no Tamara I really do not need a higher grip
)I do install an ambi safety.
I usually lower the ejection port if it needs it but unless it is made flared I don't bother with it. Same for the magazine well, I just round off the sharp edges if it needs it.
I prefer a flat mainspring housing but i don't really care if it's steel or aluminum or nylon. Doesn't matter if it's serrated or checkered or even smooth. I can live with an arched if I have to.
Gimme a good set of wood or even GI plastic grips and I'm happy. I can't stand the wrap around Pachmayr type, throws my entire grip off.
All the stuff I do is just personal preference. If all I had was a real GI spec pistol I could get by quite well.
The most important stuff is the 3 F's, Feeding, Fireing and Flinging out the empties.
For a fightin' gun that's all you really need.
As for as the Series 80 trigger pull...
Several people who have shot any of mine have commented how much better they feel without all that "extra crap". I delight in telling them that it's all still inside.
- Status
