556A2
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The M4
Anyone know the name of the new gun that's supposed to be replacing the M16?
- Thread starter bigtonkertoys
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Z-Michigan
Member
Uh, see posts 11, 12, and 20 - no need for wondering or guessing.
krs
Member
They may work but they're sure ugly.
First time I saw any I thought that the guy wearing them had left his barracks in his jammies... So it's Digi-Jammies not Digi-cammies. All you need is the drop-down Dr. Denton door in the back.
R.W.Dale
Member
Folks are just going ti have to realize that the assualt rifle and it's ammunition is a perfected technology. Much like the recropicating steam engine or the typewriter. Today we find ourselves using a 50 yr old platform that's still as light as can be realistic that's as reliable as it can concievably need to be. When 99.9% of the time bullets come out the end of the bbl when the trigger is pulled. There's simply no need to "upgrade".
My prediction is whatever replaces the m4 will utilize a completely diffrent technology from chemical propellants in brass cases.
My prediction is whatever replaces the m4 will utilize a completely diffrent technology from chemical propellants in brass cases.
Bwana John
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I thought the M16 was replaced by the M16-A1 with forward assist
Arkel23
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You gettin smart with me or just saying?
Jamyatunes
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The nomex armor vehicle crewman's coverall is even worse . . . it has the drop-down door, all it needs is footies.They may work but they're sure ugly.
First time I saw any I thought that the guy wearing them had left his barracks in his jammies... So it's Digi-Jammies not Digi-cammies. All you need is the drop-down Dr. Denton door in the back.
outerlimit
Member
Happens all the time.
Sounds vaguely familiar.
High Planes Drifter
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[pushy salesman] There are no foulings. Come on, look at the video [pushy salesman]
Hammerhead6814
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The whole issue of magazine changes on a bullpup rifle has more to do with how you've been trained than the rifle itself. Guns and Ammo has a story about the FAMAS in this week's issue (sorry for the ebay link it's all I've got).
Apparently French soldiers are so used to changing their magazines on bullpup guns that they have difficulty changing them out on standard-layout rifles (like the M4). US soldiers have the exact same response about the FAMAS.
Given a little training you can change out a bullpup magazine just as fast as a regular-pattern rifle's magazine. The Israeli's have no trouble with it, and they're at war nearly 24/7.
Apparently French soldiers are so used to changing their magazines on bullpup guns that they have difficulty changing them out on standard-layout rifles (like the M4). US soldiers have the exact same response about the FAMAS.
Given a little training you can change out a bullpup magazine just as fast as a regular-pattern rifle's magazine. The Israeli's have no trouble with it, and they're at war nearly 24/7.
lobo9er
Member
did I read this wrong or miss the sarcasm. we can buy all of those and have been for years. i'm not the sharpest tool so maybe I missed something.
Jim Watson
Member
Uh, could you give us a hint as to where we can buy all of those?
They are all full auto or selective fire military weapons which are strictly regulated under the NFA, no new sales to commoners after the misnamed Gun Owners Protection Act of 1986, and no legal way to convert full- to semiauto. We can buy the few on the register for thousands or tens of thousands of dollars but that is not an option for most taxpayers.
They are all full auto or selective fire military weapons which are strictly regulated under the NFA, no new sales to commoners after the misnamed Gun Owners Protection Act of 1986, and no legal way to convert full- to semiauto. We can buy the few on the register for thousands or tens of thousands of dollars but that is not an option for most taxpayers.
mljdeckard
Member
I have at least 12 years to go before I retire. I don't plan on using anything other then the M-4/M-16. What I think you will see is more flexibility in the service to provide mission-specific weapons within combat arms and SOCOM, everyone else will keep using what they have.
I seem to be the only one, but I love ACU pat. Admittedly it's because 80% of Utah is covered with sagebrush, and it is perfect for hunting coyotes. (I bought some before I went back into the military.) If any of you come to Camp Williams for WLC or Beenock, you will see what I mean. I'll switch as long as I don't have to out-of pocket for them.
I had the pleasure of shooting the M110 with the can the other day. Wow. However, the 19th group guys I was with don't like it. They say that Knight seems to cut all kinds of corners with the production models that they didn't in the protypes. It locks up if they shoot faster than 6 rpm. They prefer M-40s and M-14s.
I seem to be the only one, but I love ACU pat. Admittedly it's because 80% of Utah is covered with sagebrush, and it is perfect for hunting coyotes. (I bought some before I went back into the military.) If any of you come to Camp Williams for WLC or Beenock, you will see what I mean. I'll switch as long as I don't have to out-of pocket for them.
I had the pleasure of shooting the M110 with the can the other day. Wow. However, the 19th group guys I was with don't like it. They say that Knight seems to cut all kinds of corners with the production models that they didn't in the protypes. It locks up if they shoot faster than 6 rpm. They prefer M-40s and M-14s.
Z-Michigan
Member
Lobo, I think he meant US military-surplus semi-auto conversions of those guns - i.e., a gun that was actually used in service, with the selector switch, but then surplused, converted to semi-auto-only and sold to civilians. Yes, you can buy newly manufactured civilian guns styled like those, maybe even with some GI surplus parts, but the original receivers and whole guns are not available through surplus, because the BATFE has a rule that "once a machinegun, always a machinegun."
Pistolwhip.454
Member
I read an article that suggested the Pentagon was taking a SERIOUS look at this:
STAG ARMS 6.8mm:
Factory base model:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/688cartridge.aspx
The U.S. Army is pretty serious about adopting a new caliber bullet for its infantry weapons. Now is the time to do it, as a new infantry rifle, the XM-8, is moving quickly through field testing. The proposed new caliber is 6.8mm (also known as .270). Officially, it's the 6.8mm Remington SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge) Special Forces troops were the first to use 6.8mm ammo in combat, and they were impressed with it's better (than 5.56mm bullets) ability to take down enemy troops. This should be no surprise, as the 6.8mm round is based on the 19th century 30-30 round. The 6.8mm round is a modified 30-30 caliber round based on the Remington 30 cartridge (first introduced in 1906). The 30-30 is a rimless round first designed for lever action rifles. Most of those lever action rifles you see in cowboy movies are 30-30s. The 30-30 round is still popular with deer hunters because of its ability to bring down deer (of up to about 400 pounds) or wild pigs (up to 300 pounds) at common hunting ranges (100-150 meters) without producing a lot of recoil, or requiring a heavy rifle. The 6.8mm round has a bullet that's about 40 percent lighter than 30-30 rounds, but about twice as heavy as the current 5.56mm bullet. The superior hitting power can be seen in comparing muzzle energy (1158 foot pounds for the 5.56mm bullet versus 1793 for the 6.8mm round.) At 500 meters it's 338 versus 600 foot pounds. This means that, out to about 600 meters, the 6.8mm round has about the same impact as the heavier 7.62mm round used in sniper rifles and medium machine-guns.
The British were using the .303 caliber rifle (similar to the 7.62mm by American snipers today) and were taking down German troops at ranges in excess of 500 meters. U.S. troops today can do the same thing, if they have a weapon with the accuracy and hitting power to support that kind of shooting. The 6.8mm round, having a higher velocity than the 30-30, but also a heavier bullet than the M-16, provides the combination of long range accuracy and hitting power that American troops of today can take advantage of. In Afghanistan and Iraq, there were many situations where U.S. troops were able to spot enemy fighters at longer ranges (over 500 meters), but were not able to do much damage with their 5.56mm rifles. But Special Forces troops using M-16s modified to handle the new 6.8mm ammo, got much better results at these long ranges.
American troops in support units are not as accurate when using their rifles, but the new electronic sights help, and the new XM-8 rifles will still allow automatic fire, which always helps in an emergency. The low recoil of the 6.8mm round makes it easier to fire on full automatic. This was a big selling point with the 5.56mm round and the M-16. The older M-14, firing full power 7.62 rounds, had too much recoil for accurate automatic fire.
The 6.8mm ammunition is heavier, meaning about 20 percent fewer rounds are carried (unless you want to carry more weight, which no grunt wants to do). But with troops capable to accurate single round shooting, you don't need lots of ammo.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is the only actual "possible" replacement being tested by the Military at this time, as far as I know...
All the early signs are very GOOD because a standard M-16 easily converts with an upper reciever and barrel (maybe a clip but I don't think so...) All the rest works as is... so, there is not the "Gazillion bux" involved in making the switch.. it will be a relatively cheap upgrade that turns out DAMNED EXPENSIVE for anyone stupid enough to fire on US troops anymore!!!
GO devil dogs!!
STAG ARMS 6.8mm:
Factory base model:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/688cartridge.aspx
The U.S. Army is pretty serious about adopting a new caliber bullet for its infantry weapons. Now is the time to do it, as a new infantry rifle, the XM-8, is moving quickly through field testing. The proposed new caliber is 6.8mm (also known as .270). Officially, it's the 6.8mm Remington SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge) Special Forces troops were the first to use 6.8mm ammo in combat, and they were impressed with it's better (than 5.56mm bullets) ability to take down enemy troops. This should be no surprise, as the 6.8mm round is based on the 19th century 30-30 round. The 6.8mm round is a modified 30-30 caliber round based on the Remington 30 cartridge (first introduced in 1906). The 30-30 is a rimless round first designed for lever action rifles. Most of those lever action rifles you see in cowboy movies are 30-30s. The 30-30 round is still popular with deer hunters because of its ability to bring down deer (of up to about 400 pounds) or wild pigs (up to 300 pounds) at common hunting ranges (100-150 meters) without producing a lot of recoil, or requiring a heavy rifle. The 6.8mm round has a bullet that's about 40 percent lighter than 30-30 rounds, but about twice as heavy as the current 5.56mm bullet. The superior hitting power can be seen in comparing muzzle energy (1158 foot pounds for the 5.56mm bullet versus 1793 for the 6.8mm round.) At 500 meters it's 338 versus 600 foot pounds. This means that, out to about 600 meters, the 6.8mm round has about the same impact as the heavier 7.62mm round used in sniper rifles and medium machine-guns.
The British were using the .303 caliber rifle (similar to the 7.62mm by American snipers today) and were taking down German troops at ranges in excess of 500 meters. U.S. troops today can do the same thing, if they have a weapon with the accuracy and hitting power to support that kind of shooting. The 6.8mm round, having a higher velocity than the 30-30, but also a heavier bullet than the M-16, provides the combination of long range accuracy and hitting power that American troops of today can take advantage of. In Afghanistan and Iraq, there were many situations where U.S. troops were able to spot enemy fighters at longer ranges (over 500 meters), but were not able to do much damage with their 5.56mm rifles. But Special Forces troops using M-16s modified to handle the new 6.8mm ammo, got much better results at these long ranges.
American troops in support units are not as accurate when using their rifles, but the new electronic sights help, and the new XM-8 rifles will still allow automatic fire, which always helps in an emergency. The low recoil of the 6.8mm round makes it easier to fire on full automatic. This was a big selling point with the 5.56mm round and the M-16. The older M-14, firing full power 7.62 rounds, had too much recoil for accurate automatic fire.
The 6.8mm ammunition is heavier, meaning about 20 percent fewer rounds are carried (unless you want to carry more weight, which no grunt wants to do). But with troops capable to accurate single round shooting, you don't need lots of ammo.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is the only actual "possible" replacement being tested by the Military at this time, as far as I know...
All the early signs are very GOOD because a standard M-16 easily converts with an upper reciever and barrel (maybe a clip but I don't think so...) All the rest works as is... so, there is not the "Gazillion bux" involved in making the switch.. it will be a relatively cheap upgrade that turns out DAMNED EXPENSIVE for anyone stupid enough to fire on US troops anymore!!!
GO devil dogs!!
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Pistolwhip.454
Member
How can people seriously believe the U.S. will adopt a non NATO round such as the 6.8 not to mention the M4 version of the M16 has only been in service for about 7 years. Do you really believe the U.S. Goverment will scrap a 7 year old weapon system after keeping the M16A1 for over 20 years? Dream on folks! There will not be a mass replacement for the M4 any time soon.
Pistolwhip.454
Member
It's NOT the weapon system they will be scrapping... it's an IDENTiCAL piece except for the upper reciever and barrel...
What they are DUMPING is the wimpy 5.56... it is notoriouly WEAK in battle use... try reading the link I gave you... They haven't already issued THOUSANDS of them to Special Forces just for chitz and grins...
What they are DUMPING is the wimpy 5.56... it is notoriouly WEAK in battle use... try reading the link I gave you... They haven't already issued THOUSANDS of them to Special Forces just for chitz and grins...
Maverick223
Member
Ask HorseSoldier (who has the most combat experience that I know of here at THR) how anemic the 5.56NATO is...it is a lightweight, accurate, powerful round with a reputation for getting the job done.
You are right...they haven't issued thousands...though some have been issued for field testing.
lobo9er
Member
Yeah i know what they are but there are semi auto versions of all of them. theres semi auto receivers made for all of them. would that not constatute a "semi-auto kit".
mljdeckard
Member
NATO has nothing to do with it. Ok, has LITTLE to do with it. Remember, we pushed NATO to adopt the 7.62 cartridge, and then after a few years we scrapped it for the 5.56. NATO spent decades getting around to matching it again. If we decided we wanted to use a different cartridge, we would tell NATO to go pound sand. Again.
CapnMac
Member
Jim Watson
BAR Self-loading rifle version available from Ohio Ordinance for around $14-1500
M-2 Carbines Will guess he meant M-1, as M-2 very rare and NFA only; but several vendors out there, even refurbished military.
Thompson Auto Ordinance is Kahr now (IIRC) 1928 & M1A1, as long as you can stand the long 18" barrel's appearance.
Grease Gun Valkyrie makes one, again with a funky barrel (or with a solid weight that looks like a suppressor).
M-14s Guessing he means all of the M1A and similar variants
Ohio and a couple other places can hook you up with a semi-auto M1919, but it's not cheap. Around $2000, then another $500 for a tripod; but you can get 1000 links or a fabric belt for around $30, though
BAR Self-loading rifle version available from Ohio Ordinance for around $14-1500
M-2 Carbines Will guess he meant M-1, as M-2 very rare and NFA only; but several vendors out there, even refurbished military.
Thompson Auto Ordinance is Kahr now (IIRC) 1928 & M1A1, as long as you can stand the long 18" barrel's appearance.
Grease Gun Valkyrie makes one, again with a funky barrel (or with a solid weight that looks like a suppressor).
M-14s Guessing he means all of the M1A and similar variants
Ohio and a couple other places can hook you up with a semi-auto M1919, but it's not cheap. Around $2000, then another $500 for a tripod; but you can get 1000 links or a fabric belt for around $30, though
556A2
Member
6.8SPC will NOT be replacing 5.56x45mm.
Just because Special Forces uses a weapon doesn't mean its going to replace anything.
Just because Special Forces uses a weapon doesn't mean its going to replace anything.
HorseSoldier
Member
Some points:
The article you quoted is several years old, and from a source that is notable for lack of journalistic standards, fact checking, etc.
A limited number of people from 5th Group took 6.8mm guns downrange for field testing. How limited? I don't know, but none of the guys on 5th Group ODAs I ever trained with had been involved in the test, and if memory serves me correctly that includes some folks from all the line battalions plus a member of their SOTIC committee/ops det.
The findings of the test were such that SOCOM decided to keep 5.56mm in service. Part of this was driven by logistics considerations, but part of it was that it simply did not make that much of a difference when it was all said and done.
Concerning the "notoriously weak" 5.56mm round -- talk to guys who actually shoot people for a living and see how notoriously weak most of them consider the round. To cut to the chase, the really cool kids in JSOC (Delta Force/CAG/or whatever the current name du jour is) could have adopted an alternate round if they wanted to. These are the guys who decided they wanted 40S&W pistols to replace their 9mm Glocks and 45 cal 1911s, for instance.
What do they use? They went through all the trouble of adopting a new rifle, but their fancy new HK 416s are still chambered for 5.56mm.
If the highest end professional gunfighters in the US military think 5.56mm does the job, you've got to wonder if it's the arrow or the indian when guys with much less training and familiarity with their weapons complain about failures to stop. (And I think we're all familiar with Black Hawk Down and comments made in the book by members of CAG, but the fact still stands that when a potential replacement was available they simply weren't interested . . .)
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