Anyone load Maxam CSB-5 in 9mm/40 cal Pistol

[Nordeste]

I see your point, 1SOW. And I had heard that thing before. In my case, I always have kept my reloads around the 132 PF, basically because I'm abide by the rules and want to be on the safe side if I ever get my ammo run through the chrono in a match, and because I've noticed I get better groups that way also.

Appreciate your comments. I'm glad it's helped .

 

[mizer67]

I ran 20 rounds of a 4.67 grain CSB-1 load today, all else being the same as my previous data (124 Precision Delta JHP, 1.10" OAL, Win primer, mixed brass).

Average velocity was 1,061 fps through my G17 with the stock barrel.

ES and SD were high though. I think either the powder isn't metering well in a few cases or it's the mixed brass causing the issue.

However, I ran 20 rounds of N340 through the chrono also and that had an ES of 22 and SD of 7 fps, so I'm suspecting inconsistent metering rather than the brass. I'm loading 100 rounds of the same head stamp brass to rule that out of the equation.

 

[Nordeste]

I ran 20 rounds of a 4.67 grain CSB-1 load today, all else being the same as my previous data (124 Precision Delta JHP, 1.10" OAL, Win primer, mixed brass).

Average velocity was 1,061 fps through my G17 with the stock barrel.

ES and SD were high though. I think either the powder isn't metering well in a few cases or it's the mixed brass causing the issue.

However, I ran 20 rounds of N340 through the chrono also and that had an ES of 22 and SD of 7 fps, so I'm suspecting inconsistent metering rather than the brass. I'm loading 100 rounds of the same head stamp brass to rule that out of the equation.

Again, consistent with my own results in my good old Star 30M. Conclusion drawn, that CSB-1 of yours is pretty similar (if not the same) to my Optima A.

This powders meter just so-so. In my Lee Pro Auto Disk, I see 0.10-0.12 variations, which isn't great, nor it is too bad. That could explain your results, though using the same brand of brass is always a good idea.

I'll run a batch through my chrono this week, trying to be as accurate with the load as possible, and will come back with the results.

Did you like how the load felt when shooting it?. To me, it feels very similar to the Remington UMC (the one in the green box), which is a particularly soft-shooting 9 mm ammo.

 

[mizer67]

I thought they were soft shooting loads also. I wasn't concentrating on feel, but they shoot softer than my N340 and N330 loads (which are running 1,090 fps avg.).

 

[mizer67]

Nordeste, I tried a 4.74 CSB-1 grain load in my H&K VP9 today.

The much tighter H&K chamber makes a big difference. I didn't chrono these loads, but I'm guessing they were 1150+ fps from the feel of things.

The brass was noticeably expanded towards the base, but the primers didn't show flattening. That being said, this load I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting regularly in this gun (seems fine in the much looser Glock chamber though). I'm guessing it's near or slightly over SAMMI pressure limits from the look of the brass. There were some extractor markings as well.

 

[Nordeste]

I got nearly 1100 fps in my SP01 with those 4.75 grains, but with no signs of overpressure and a 125 grainer (TC, copper plated). As you say, the difference may well be in the chamber, and if I'm not mistaken, your H&K has a polygonal barrel. The Star 30M has a looser chamber and a standard barrel. She's been designed to "eat" whatever you feed her, as the military pistol she is. The SP01, on the other hand, has a much tighter chamber and it shows off (the positives and the negatives of it, of course). I have, therefore, backed off the load for the SP01, together with the OAL, to 4.45 grains and 1.10". Whether or not you are above SAAMI max. pressure, we mortals can't tell. We'd need a lab for that. What I've been taught is that if your cases are already showing overpressure signs, that means you're already over the limit and pushing your luck, but if your primers didn't show overpressure signs, I'd be confident. You have probably found the maximum load for that pistol. Just don't go any further, and problem solved.

In my case, with the Optima A, my cases even showed some carbon blackening around the case neck and one side of the exterior wall case, with the 4.75 grains load. As far as I know this can be understood as low pressure sign. I definitely didn't have overpressure signs.

This will be a busy week, in which I'll even shoot a match during the weekend, but I'll try my best to make some velocity checks with both my Star and the CZ, pick the cases up and come back with the results.

 

[1SOW]

Nordeste, In USPSA 125 PF is the "minimum" allowable by the "rules". There is no maximum PF. I don't thjink there is in IPSC either, but I may be wrong.

Most shoot somewhere above 130PF to make sure it will pass match chrono checks, and with the load tuned for the pistol and shooter to score best.

I've loaded some rounds with CSB-5 to chronograph tomorrow at practice. I'll post my results.

 

[Nordeste]

Yep, it's the same in IPSC, and I also try to stay around the 130 PF , or slightly above.

 

[1SOW]

WIN cases. Federal SPPs
All were 10 rd strings except the BRY 124HBRN 4.4 loads, that were just 5 rds.
Weather was partly cloudy. CE Pro-Chrono sky screens were on, temp about 90 degs and 65 deg dewpoint--humid. Intermittent gusty winds.

CSB-5 POWDER

BRY 124 HBRN: 1.135", seat .232"
Grs:.. 3.9...... 4.1.... 4.2...... 4.4 * (only a 5 rd string with this load)
AVG.. 1015.... 1037.. 1048.... 1058
ES .... 36....... 33...... 47...... 22
SD.... 11....... 9 ........ ? .... ?
PF.... 126...... 128.5.. 130.... 131

MG 124 JHP: 1.098", seat .228"
Grs:.. 4.2... 4.3
AVG.. 1057 1076
ES .... 35.... 32
SD.... 10.... 14
PF.... 132... 134.5

Zero125 JHP: 1.100", Seat .213"
Grs:.. 4.2... 4.3
AVG.. 1061 1073
ES.... 32.... 32
SD.... 7..... 9
PF.... 133-.. 134

I didn't see smoke. My CZ 75 Shadow was already dirty . The recoil felt much like n320. The chrono target was at 7 yards with a 3" hole with 5 flyers after shooting all from a rest . The ejected cases looked completely normal. I'll look closer at these this evening when I sort all the cases I picked up.

Overall, I think this powder CAN work out okay, but it does fill the case enough to compresss a little with .1 grs higher loads than I tested. The Berry's seating depth was just slightly into the powder at 4.4 grains. I purposely didn't increase the oal to see what would happen.
A forum friend went to 1100+ fps with a linear progression in speed.

The CSB-5 small powder discs are VERY uniform in size and two discs laying flat will just fit into a WIN case flash hole. I saw that a few times as I handloaded to the powder weights shown for each rd. I was a little disappointed with the ES speed variations with each load. I can get better with my go-to powders, but that's not a biggy---I just worked hard to make these uniform loads.

For a shooting test I'll load some more using from 4.3 -4.4 and maybe some 4.5 gr loads for the RN bullets.

 

[Nordeste]

Good to hear good news. As said, it looks like there is no problem in compressing it a little. In my case and with my Optima A loads, my loads are on the verge of being compressed. They aren't, but they're close.

N320 is not (sadly :banghead for sale here so I have no experience with it, but as far as I know it's on the faster side of the Vihta range. If recoil feels similar, this definitely makes sense. But the good news here is that your cases look good. If you're achieving the power factor you want (and it looks like it), I think you can call it a day. I'd just be cautious if I decided to go any hotter than that .

As for the size of the powder discs, in my case the Optima A discs are just a tad bigger than a 9 mm flash hole.

Yesterday I went late to bed because I spent some time at the bench loading up a few rounds that I'll chronograph tomorrow. I weighed each and every charge, with target loads of 4.5 and 4.75 grains, and allowing the load to drift a maximum of +/- 0.05 grain. These will be shot tomorrow in both my Star 30M and SP01 Shadow, and I'll come back here with the results. The bullets are the German made H&N 125 copper plated TC. I didn't bother weighing the bullets, but from experience I know they are usually quite consistent in their weight, +/- 0.3 grains up or down, with the occasional stray that will go 2 grains up (never down). I think this might bring some useful velocity, ES and SD data for other potential CSB-x users. My OAL for these rounds is 1.092", seating depth 0.19".

By the way, my chronograph is also a CE Pro Chrono Digital and tomorrow we expect overcast here, so we can't ask for more similarities .

 

[Nordeste]

By the way, I used this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=741988

In order to fine tune my load. With the .57 hole I was getting powder drops that fell all over the place between 4.7 and 4.9 grains, with the most part of them being around 4.75-4.85. I considered it acceptable but, with the SP01, there was no need for that load as it worked flawlessly with 4.5, seemed to get better groups (shooting from a rest), and still kept well within PF at +/- 1050 fps. So I decided to use the .53 hole, which usually dropped 4.3 grains, but sometimes fell short of that, leaving me in dangerous non-PF territory. I used a dremel tool and good care to widen up the hole a bit, then inserted a screw as per the instructions in that thread.

Now I'm getting pretty consistent 4.5-4.6 grain loads. Consider this if you're using a Lee Pro Auto Disk powder measure and plan on using these powders.

 

[1SOW]

Thanks Nordeste, I've been modifying Disc holes for a long time,.
I was also using the #53 and #57 holes for a crude drop to measure and then hand modify to get the drops I posted.

P.S. My method to modify a disk is to get the "Next Larger Drill Bit Size" than the hole size and drill in just a 1/4" or so FROM THE BOTTOM of disc. This prevents any places for powder to not fall freely. After that first drilling, I test the drop and repeat if necessary. When it gets "close" to the drop I want, then I lightly sand the drilled area to smooth it and gain just the tiny amount more drop I need. I use a marker to "renumber that hole": If it was hole #53 and I added .1 grains of powders, I mark it # 53.1. or #51.2 for .2 extra grains, etc.

This makes the numbering usable with the disc chart for any powder listed.

After I load some more to see how they SHOOT and feel using IPSC and USPSA targets, I'll modify the holes to get those charges to drop accurately.

 

[Nordeste]

Hi all:

I'm forwarding you the chronograph results of the day, quickly because I'm off to work. During the weekend I'll be busy with the regional match we've been setting up this week (I'll be the range officer running the chronograph... ), and consequently I won't, or probably won't feel like uploading the photos of the cases shot today.



Here it goes:

CZ 75 SP 01 Shadow

4'5 grains Optima A (CSB-1), 1.094 OAL, .356" TC H&N 125 grains copper plated bullet, light taper crimp, CCI primer.

1- 1047
2- 1082
3- 1077
4- 1043
5- 1073

Average 1064, ES 39, SD 18

Same data, with a 4.75 grain load

1- 1092
2- 1095
3- 1103
4- 1084
5- 1107

Av. 1096, ES 23, SD 9


STAR 30M

Same 4.5 grain load, same data as the first string of the SP01

1- 1018
2- 1031
3- 1040
4- 1017
5- 1020

Av. 1025, ES 23, SD 9


Same 4.75 grain load, same data as the second string of the SP01

1- 1056
2- 1054
3- 1057
4- 1049
5- 1059

Av. 1055, ES 10, ES 3

As you see, the SD deviation data are quite good, except for the SP 01's first string, which isn't that good. I weighed every charge and paid close attention to stay as close as possible to the target load, but I didn't weigh the projectiles... so maybe there's the culprit, especially if we see how low the ES and SD data are in the other loads.

The cases showed no sign of overpressure whatsoever. In fact, those fired in the Star 30M with the lighter load showed signs of the opposite. The 30M has a looser chamber, that's a fact, and it looks like she needs the load to be beefed up a bit. In the SP 01, the cases indicated a complete and relatively clean combustion, with no soot on the case walls.


Hope it helps .

 

[mizer67]

Those are very nice ES and SD readings.

My guess is my charge weights dropped from a Dillon powder measure weren't as accurate as yours as mine were higher, although they were for 10 round strings.

It does seem like the Glock and Star 30M have similar chamber dimensions, given my results.

 

[BillinAL]

CSB-5 in 9mm

Loaded Test Rounds at 4.0, 4.2, and 4.4 grains
OAL - 1.15", Xtreme Plated 115 gr bullet, Lee Factory Crimp 3/4 turn, Glock 17
4.0 grains - avg FPS - 1044
4.2 grains - avg FPS - 1055
4.4 grains - avg FPS - 1080

Loaded 100 rounds at 4.5 grains - all fired well.

 

[1SOW]

Bill:

Loaded Test Rounds at 4.0, 4.2, and 4.4 grains
OAL - 1.15", Xtreme Plated 115 gr bullet, Lee Factory Crimp 3/4 turn, Glock 17
4.0 grains - avg FPS - 1044
4.2 grains - avg FPS - 1055
4.4 grains - avg FPS - 1080

Those speeds with 115gr are very close to what 124/125 gr bullets produced using CSB-5 with the same/close to the same loads.
With that OAL I expect those were RN bullets?

 

[1SOW]

I did load 50 MG 124 JHPs and 50 Zero 125JHPs at 4.3 .
The Zeros shot and felt great. The MGs felt snappy and shot a little high.
I'll try the MGs again with 4.2 grs.

This powder does not drop consistently from my LEE Pro-Powder disks. Harder handle pulls or jarring the powder hopper at all can give +/- .1 gr variations. With a .1 gr change there is a very noticeable change in fel and performance.

Other than that, It does shoot well with the right load. As has been said, heavier bullets might be more appropriate for this powder.

I wouldn't put in the class of SR7625 or n320, but It'll work for 124 gr 9mm in a fairly narrow range of Competition minor PF loads.

Now if we could get the slightly slower "CSB-6" to test......

 

[Nordeste]

1SOW:

Those variations, with these powders and that powder measure, are normal. It's the fast burn rate of the powder that makes you feel that difference with such little variation in the powder charge. CSB-1 is much more forgiving in that regard.

I know this is of little help since you have already a few pounds of #5, but when you run out of it, keep it in mind for the future .

 

[1SOW]

Thanks Nordeste, I agree.

The funny thing is it loads with more powder weight than Vihtavuori N320 which isn't touchy at all.
6-7 of those tiny CSB-5 wafers = .1 grs.
Nordeste if you can ever get this VV powder in Spain--GRAB IT FAST--it's ideal for 124/125 gr 9mm up to 1100 feet per second , and good for 40 cal and 45 ACP. It burns clean and cool for real.
It doesn't stay "in stock" here for more than a day or two, even before our powder shortage occured .

It's a preferred powder for IPSC/USPSA competitors. 4.0, 4.1 grs (1/2 9mm case-full) will get your 132 PF.

 

[Nordeste]

I hope I would have the chance to get some VV stuff, 1SOW ... our regulations regarding firearms and "explosives" (gunpowder is treated like that, here) are as stupid as they can be. Only certain powders are "approved" for import, and even though there are some VV powders in that list, it looks like there is no apparent interest in VV for exporting their stuff here, or for someone to import it. It's just the Vectan (French) powders and the Maxam (made here) that are available. That narrows the choices quite a bit, as for the 9 mm, there are like four powders that are suitable for the caliber.

 

[Jetlife]

Thanks for the review of CSB-1. I've been looking for powder and ran across this thread and decided to give it a try. The best news was that their shop is 5 miles from the house. Dropped in to talk and walked out with some powder. Very nice people. If this works well, I plan on going back for more.

 

[hamp sandwich]

Hi all! I just joined because of this thread. Great info, and it sold me on trying both CSB1 and 5. I've already been trying it out in 9mm, but I don't have data to report yet. However, I did find that 4gr of CSB5 with a 115gr projo wasn't quite enough to properly cycle my SIG226. 4.5gr works great though!

 

[Artofgolf]

Welcome to The High Road, hamp sandwich

Many great folks here to seek help from & answer your questions.

Post some pics when you get a chance

 

[Artofgolf]

.......... chart that included the Maxam powders and couldn't find one: any language, any place. That would be handy for some rough comparisons.

1SOW, this might help: View attachment MAXAM Components.pdf

 

[1SOW]

Artofgolf, thanks, I have that and have been shooting with competition loads at 4.25 grs of CSB-5 under several different JHPs: 124 MG jhp, 124 PD JHP and 125 Zero JHPs and they shoot well. I've refined a LEE disc hole (and my drop consistency) for this drop and like way it feels and shoots. I'll order it again.
It's my back-up powder for vv n320 and IMR sr7625.
n320: scarce as frog hair, until the new VV owners finish the manufacturing plant updates.
7625: no longer manufactured by IMR :-(

I'm still good for a while though. Good to know the #5 is there if needed.