Anyone still using .45 GAP?

[meanmrmustard]

I see we aren't that far apart. Let us go in peace. <Grin>

I might be convinced to try .357 SIG (I have a Glock 23 with a .357 conversion barrel), but I find the price off-putting, when I can use a 9mm conversion barrel for punching paper (which is about all I'll use that gun for.)

My son, a NC State Trooper, feels differently about .357 SIG. He has a S&W M&P issued in that caliber -- and he can get ammo a lot easier than I can.

Hence why GAP is popular with LE too. They can acquire it faster and cheaper. It's actually not that bad, but as available as Quadricorn milk round these parts.

 

[rtz]

The strange thing about the Glock 21: Wrap your hand around the magazine. Not bad. Look at the back of the grip and all that hollow space and how it bulges out like that. No need or reason. I have big hands and that grip is huge!

 

[ugaarguy]

Walt, there have been 14 round mags available for the S&W M&P 45 for several years. The SA XD 45 4 inch has 13 round flush fit mags, and is the same size ( if not slightly smaller in the grip ) as a Glock 38. The SA XD series is proof that the answer is grip and magazine engineering, not a new cartridge.

 

[CLP]

I bought a Glock 37 because it was being sold for 375 NIB and the 45 GAP has comparable ballistics to the 45 ACP. I also have a 1911 in 45 ACP, so I guess some part of the reason I bought it was that it was something new and different. I bought a couple thousand Starline brass and load them with the same Nosler 185gr JHP's that I use in my 1911. Have put about 500 rounds through it, about 15 of them were factory rounds, the rest being handloads. It's a fine round, but I'll agree that its arrival was sort of a solution to a problem that didn't exist. My biggest complaint about the G37 is that they only come with 10rd mags.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Walt, there have been 14 round mags available for the S&W M&P 45 for several years. The SA XD 45 4 inch has 13 round flush fit mags, and is the same size ( if not slightly smaller in the grip ) as a Glock 38. The SA XD series is proof that the answer is grip and magazine engineering, not a new cartridge.

Good points, and valid. But that wasn't the case when the .45 GAP was first introduced.

If you're saying Glock should have worked on grip size rather than Cartridge, I'll agree -- but I don't see the .45 GAP as a bigger abomination than a number of other cartridges, and my Glock 38, remains one of the easiest shooting .45s I've ever fired. I've had a number of 1911s, SIG 220s, Witness .45s, and a CZ-97. I like how the 38 shoots better than any of them. but I'll admit that I'm a bit more accurate with my SIG P-220 Super Match. In terms of price/performance, however, I paid 3 times more for the used Super Match than the used 38, and to my way of thinking, there's not THAT much difference in their relative performance.

As noted above, the Glock 21's grip could have been made smaller -- and had they done so, I might have had one and never bought a 38. The 21s I shot felt like 2"x4"s in my hand -- downright offputting. I'll probably try a 227, one of these days. (I have a "SpeedSpecialities"-tuned M&P Pro in 9mm and it's a fine gun, so an M&P 45 isn't out of the question, either.)

 

[Fiv3r]

My buddy on the Sheriff's Department told me that they were issued GAP Glocks. That kind of surprised me as I think the City cops carry a .40.

I would give the GAP a chance if I stumbled onto one at a good price. I can't shoot ACP right now as I can't find it anywhere. No big deal. I'm having fun making smoke with my Black Powder guns while I wait for the silliness to die down.

That said, having a smaller framed .45 Glock in my stable wouldn't be a bad thing. Plus, the highly irrational side of me reminds my reptilian brain that I live out in the country surrounded by many Deputy neighbors with duty weapons and personal weapons in their issued caliber. In a case where things went south, some of the first people I would try to formulate a plan with these fine folks. It might be nice to have a gun that eats what theirs do

 

[MaterDei]

I thought the 45GAP was an April fool's joke. Do you mean to say that it wasn't?

 

[Blueduck]

I'm guessing since 10% of State Police Agencies in the Nation issue it, I'm guessing not

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

OK, so some of you don't like it.....and probably can't even articulate why. The cartridge is more compact and EFFICIENT by size than the .45ACP, but the sheer abundance of brass, ammo, and guns for ACP is going to stymie any effort by the GAP to replace it. I get that. But, if a person likes the size of 9mm pistols, or compact guns, or has smaller hands, and STILL likes big bores, the little GAP guns give them more options. Get over it. It the GAP isn't for YOU, then can we let other people choose for their OWN reasons? I don't own one, but I think they are WORTHY of consideration for many reasons.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't own one, but I think they are WORTHY of consideration for many reasons.

Ah, and so does the Old Fuff. By shortening the case length you can fit a .45 cartridge into a 9mm/.40 frame rather then a larger one needed for the .45 ACP and give up nothing of consequence. It is not intended to be a rival to the longer round, but rather an additional option. If a compact .45 is what is desired, it can “out-compact” any regular .45 ACP. When double-column magazines are the order of the day most folks find the .9mm/.40 size handle to be easier to hold on to.

For a manufacturer they’re meaningful savings when you can use one lower (frame assembly) to make more guns. More limited production on a larger one translates in to higher costs.

Were someone to chamber a pocket-sized revolver to use the Glock cartridge the cylinder could be shortened, bulk and weight would be reduced, and extraction & ejection would be more positive.

What’s not to like?

 

[ugaarguy]

But, if a person likes the size of 9mm pistols, or compact guns, or has smaller hands, and STILL likes big bores, the little GAP guns give them more options.

Several of you keep insisting on this, but it simply isn't true. There are only three pistols, all Glocks, still offered in .45 GAP

Once again, the SA XD 45 Service / 4 Inch is the same size as a Glock 38, and smaller than the G37. Said XD holds 13 rounds of 45 ACP, which is five more rounds than the G38 holds of .45 GAP, and still three more rounds than the even larger G37 holds .45 GAP. The S&W M&P 45 is comparable in size to the G37, and holds the same number of rounds, but the Smith holds the bigger rounds.

1911 Commanders and clones in .45 ACP are thinner than all double stack Glocks (even more so with slim grips), fall in between the G38 and G37 in size, and equal the G38's capacity.

The S&W M&P 45c with its 8 round mags holds as much .45 ACP as the G38 holds .45 GAP, and does so in a comparably sized package. The Kahr TP45 in 45 ACP gives up only one round of capacity to the G38. The TP45 is slightly taller, but is also slightly shorter, and significantly thinner, than the G38.

The G39 holds six rounds of 45 GAP in its subcompact frame, yet the Kahr PM45 holds 5 rounds of 45 ACP in an even smaller and slimmer package.

If someone other than Glock would offer a pistol in .45 GAP then smaller sizes with equivalent capacities would be a reality. Right now the smaller size of .45 GAP pistols is unexploited potential.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I think that .45 GAP would be nice to have in a XDs sized gun. Can you make GAP brass from ACP?

 

[ugaarguy]

Can you make GAP brass from ACP?

No, because the gap has a thicker case web, and uses a small pistol primer vs. the ACP's large primer. Starline has new brass in stock, but they're not even taking back orders on .45 ACP brass.

 

[Quiet]

Five state law enforcement agencies still use Glocks in .45GAP.

 

[Hard_Cast]

Regardless of who is using it currently, no major federal agency has picked it up that I have seen. With only a handful of state police using the cartridge, I really think that the GAP will fall from favor within 5 more years. As others have noted, Glock is the only mfg. that still produces this chambering, and the general public will not continue demand for such a cartridge for much longer. I wouldn't buy one currently, especially if you can't cut down ACP brass to form GAP. Starline is pretty good about keeping odd or hard-to-get calibers in production, though, so reloaders may have no worries, at least for some time.

The GAP seemed a little odd to me from the get-go. But then again, the .40 Short and Weak has hung on. I think its continued use by Fed, State, and Local Agencies has cemented its place in the world, as well as consumer appeal. The GAP doesn't have such a following... and I see it as only a matter of time.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

But, if a person likes the size of 9mm pistols, or compact guns, or has smaller hands, and STILL likes big bores, the little GAP guns give them more options.

Several of you keep insisting on this, but it simply isn't true. There are only three pistols, all Glocks, still offered in .45 GAP

Despite your claims to the contrary, the quoted statement above IS true -- the Glock "GAP" guns offer more options. That doesn't mean these models are the ONLY or the BEST options, but their existence does offer shooters alternatives.

I like Glocks, but I also like other guns. I happen to like my Glock 38, and find it one of the easiest shooting .45s I've owned. But, that's just me.

Are the Glock GAP models the ONLY or BEST options for those who don't like larger grips in a .45? Perhaps not -- but that doesn't mean they aren't good alternatives for many folks. Some folks really like Glocks, and don't like the FEEL or FIT of the .45 A.C.P. Glock offerings, or many of the other alternatives. There's no accounting for taste, as the old saying goes.

This debate seems a lot like the usual HOLY WAR we often see between advocates of the one true Gun God, John Browning (and his 1911 design), and those who prefer weapons designed by one of the other false Gun Gods. It's THAT kind of discussion and about as as meaningful. As in some other things, I remain an agnostic.

.

 

[Aceoky]

Being a higher pressure round how is brass life compared to the ACP?

 

[NG VI]

It's not a high pressure round, just slightly higher than ACP, so I'd expect pretty similar brass life, although there's the loose Glock chamber that probably doesn't help much.

 

[HKGuns]

I never have and never will, but then I haven't and will never own a gLoCk either. Yes I am biased as is most everyone else.

Ah, and so does the Old Fuff.

Fluff, you're stretching the truth a bit with that statement. We really know you mean you wish they would make a small frame revolver in .45GAP!

 

[Hard_Cast]

I see no way its not a higher pressure round if you are achieving ~same velocities, with same bullet weights and in a shorter cartridge. BUT, its probably a non-issue, as it seems they put a thicker web (probably for margin of safety and brass life).

 

[groundhog34]

Problem is Herr Glock would have been on the Axis side.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Hard Cast: I think you read more into the original question and NG VI's response than did the authors:

The original question asked about 45 GAP being a "high" pressure round.

NG VI said it wasn't a HIGH PRESSURE round, but he also said it had slightly higher pressure than the standard .45 ACP round. A Shooting Times article you can find on the web -- and linked below -- shows the following:

45 Auto = 21,000 psi
45 Auto +P = 23,000 psi
45 GAP = 23,000 psi
40 S&W = 35,000 psi
9mm Luger = 35,000 psi
​

The .45 GAP round has about 2/3 the pressure of the 9mm and .40 rounds, which are considered high pressure rounds, and is roughly equivalent to the pressure of .45 ACP +P. Performance is slightly less than the .45 ACP round.

Here's a link to the article, which is quite thorough -- and addresses other characteristics of the round.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_new_45/

 

[Onmilo]

Judging from the responses to this thread, I am guessing five police agencies and R. Lee Ermy are the only folks actually using the .45 GAP,,,

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Don't think you're going to find TOO MANY police agencies using .45 ACP, either. It's not a popular police round -- compared to .40 or 9mm. On the other hand, I would guess that as many as HALF of the people posting in this thread are using it.

 

[Ash]

Better or no, GAP is on the decline if based only on the evidence of Gander Mountain. I went there over the weekend and observed the state of ammo availability on the shelves. At my local Gander, there was no military caliber other than 30-06 or 7.62x54r available (and with 30-06, no M2 equivalent, only hunting rounds). Handgun ammo wasn't so bad, there was a trickle of all calibers, a few boxes in .357, 40S&W, no 9mm at all, a few boxes of 45ACP...

And a ton of .45GAP. Nobody was buying the GAP ammo. I mean, it was easily 35% of the handgun ammo of all flavors on the long shelf. Supply vs demand of course is evident: plenty of .45GAP because nobody was buying it. It spread on the shelf like oil on water in some attempt to gain equilibrium.

For GAP shooters, that was temporary good news. But it means that interest in the round - based on admittedly limited observations of a single store (but hey, such a concept works for conclusions on man-made global warming) - has waned. Ammo manufacturers will find it less and less compelling to manufacture. It may not go away altogether as in the 41AE, but it may find itself more like the .32S&W Long.

Regardless of your opinion of the round's versatility, it is not doing well. .41AE was a great round but never really got traction and was buried by the .40S&W when it came out. .45GAP was the first of two choices: new round, new magazine. Glock could have simply designed its pistols around the .45acp like everyone else did. They chose the option of designing a round to fit their concept of a pistol instead.