Anyway... I can't find any evidence that CCW on campus in PA is illegal...

[goon]

I've been doing some research and I can't find any information that CCW on a college campus in PA would be illegal, at least not under state law.
Haven't started checking on local laws yet but that's probably not as big of an issue as state laws.

IIRC, there was one floating around a few years ago that made it illegal to have a firearm within such and such a distance of a school but I also can't find anything on that and don't know if a college would count as a "school" or if they're talking about K-12.

Anyone know where I should look? I started this with the assumption that CCW on campus would be illegal and that I'd have to start writing reps about it, but I can't find any evidence that carrying on college grounds would be breaking a law.

FYI, I'm not planning to do anything until I know the laws.

 

[General Geoff]

The statute in PA prohibits carry of weapons on school grounds except for lawful purposes.

What "lawful purposes" encompasses, is up to a judge. There is no case law on this particular phrase, so if you want to be the test case, be my guest.


I guess what I'm saying is that if you were caught carrying on school grounds and arrested, you would certainly be able to use this exemption as a defense.

 

[yhtomit]

The law is one thing, but (if graduating from a particular school is important to you), the on-campus rules for students are something else. I'm at Temple; the rules here forbid guns on campus; penalties range up to expulsion.

At least it's in a nice low-crime neighborhood ... for North Philly, at least.

timothy

 

[Jimmy Dean]

I guess that if the school has no official policy on it, leaving it up to state laws, would not protection of onself for self defense be considered a lawful purpose?

there fore carrying concealed with the purpose of self defense in mind then carrying concealed on campus is a lawful purpose?

 

[Harvster]

Yup, the school rules may be more of an issue than the state law. But, do those rules fall under preemption? (Especially if its not a private University)

 

[Jimmy Dean]

On somewhat the same subject, lets say that with the current bills in fornt of various state gov't, if the state allows CCW on campus, can a public school decide not to allow it since it recieves primarily gov't funding?

 

[goon]

The statute in PA prohibits carry of weapons on school grounds except for lawful purposes.

I think that's the one I'm remembering.
Do you have a link to the actual law?
From what I can find in looking over my school's policies, they don't have anything saying you can't.
I have called the campus police and they think it's strictly forbidden in PA so even if you were legal you'd still be arrested.
I've called the staties and they think it's illegal too but they also told me to ask the campus police.

Basically, we're all assuming that CCW is illegal when it may be that this is a good "loophole" that was just never noticed before.

 

[Rumble]

I think that's the one I'm remembering.
Do you have a link to the actual law?
From what I can find in looking over my school's policies, they don't have anything saying you can't.
I have called the campus police and they think it's strictly forbidden in PA so even if you were legal you'd still be arrested.
I've called the staties and they think it's illegal too but they also told me to ask the campus police.

Basically, we're all assuming that CCW is illegal when it may be that this is a good "loophole" that was just never noticed before.

The law for elementary and secondary education does have a section regarding "lawful purposes," but what such purposes are is not defined. By my view, if you can put "self defense" as a lawful purpose on your LTCF, then it should be one of the lawful purposes the law exempts, but I'm no lawyer.

As for campuses, the law is silent on higher education - it only refers to elementary and secondary schools, IIRC. As I understand it, the president of an institute of higher education is free to make policy regarding weapons on campus, but the consequences would involve not legal repercussions (unless, I guess, you resisted the police or something), but the possibility of expulsion / termination.

The specific law is:

PA Statutes Title 18, s912.

§ 912. Possession of weapon on school property.

(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

 

[SJG26]

Goon:--please read

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA912.html

§ 912. Possession of weapon on school property.
(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

 

[Harvster]

Here's the deal:

As others have said there is that "other lawful purposes" defense in the law. But, as far as I know it's never been tested in court. No one seems to want to volunteer the money and years of their life to be the test case. But, sooner or later it will happen. So, my opinion is it would be legal but you may end up having to prove it in court(s). Any volunteers?

 

[goon]

Here's the deal:

As others have said there is that "other lawful purposes" defense in the law. But, as far as I know it's never been tested in court. No one seems to want to volunteer the money and years of their life to be the test case. But, sooner or later it will happen. So, my opinion is it would be legal but you may end up having to prove it in court(s). Any volunteers?

I would think that volunteering for that would be preferable to watching people die around you while you hid under a chair in the fetal position with your thumbs in your ears.


I still have to do some more research on this.
It just can't be that easy...
Then again, this is PA. Our gun laws are pretty good here.

Thanks for the references and links. I spoke with someone from the state AG's office a few years ago about something else. I wonder if they could help me clear this one up too.

 

[Airman193SOS]

I still have to do some more research on this.
It just can't be that easy...
Then again, this is PA. Our gun laws are pretty good here.

I did this before, and what I discovered is yes, it really is that easy. The rules are school policy, nothing more. All of the applicable statutes have been referenced. I scoured the PA Uniform Firearms Act and found nothing that forbids it from a legal standpoint.

That said, they can suspend or expel you if you get caught, but even that might be difficult since PA has preemption, and colleges are a murky gray area since a good number of them get state funds and thus may be seen as an agency of the state. That would imply that the state has chosen to ignore its own laws in allowing this policy on campus.

Take from that what you like.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

If it's not illegal, and only a matter of college policies, decide what your chances are of getting caught and whether or not you're willing to accept the possible penalties. And be aware of the possibility of someone reading your posts online and knowing who you are...

 

[geekWithA.45]

Carriage of arms on college campuses is lawful in PA.

It really is that simple.

The reason why it's lawful is because college students are putative adults, and PA takes it's RKBA clause seriously.

Fair warning on k-12 schools though: I lost the link long ago, but someone put the question as to the lawful purposes defense to their state rep, who looked into the matter. The end result is that there have been examples of DAs prosecuting permit holders, and no case law has clarified the issue. Therefore, and I quote: "a risk of prosecution exists".

 

[goon]

If it's not illegal, and only a matter of college policies, decide what your chances are of getting caught and whether or not you're willing to accept the possible penalties. And be aware of the possibility of someone reading your posts online and knowing who you are...

That is possible but I'm not too worried about it. I'll check out what I'm doing really well and make sure that I'm on solid ground before I even consider CCW on campus. I have done some searching and can't find any policies stating that it's a no-no on campus but both the campus police and the local PSP barracks have told me that it is.
Even if it's not, they still think it is, which opens up a whole different debate.
So trust me when I tell you that I'm not planning to just rush right in. If I were, I would have simply done it already and NEVER SAID ANYTHING about it to anyone.

As I said though, it still just seems too easy.
Not that I don't trust you guys, but I'm still reluctant to base a decision this big on something I read on the internet.

That would be like trying to use Wikipedia as a source for a research paper...

 

[Airman193SOS]

I agree that you should look into it further. May I suggest that you ask the PSP officer/representative to quote you the relevant statute? If they say that they won't, ask an attorney. It might cost you a few dollars, but you will have as definitive an answer as you can reasonably expect.

The authorities seem to like the idea of the rule being vague. I think it's because they know that they don't have a leg to stand on once someone demonstrates that the laws are not applicable. Either that or they genuinely have no idea. Or, perhaps, there is some obscure statute hidden deep in the bowels of the 1987 Budget for fisheries that isn't included among the relevant statutes. I count that last one as extremely unlikely, but you never know with laws.

 

[Harvster]

Not that I don't trust you guys, but I'm still reluctant to base a decision this big on something I read on the internet.

Oh! come on...if you can't trust us than who can you trust? (says Harvster as he carefully adjusts the new sweat band he glued into his tinfoil hat for more comfort during extended-wear internet sessions)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As I said though, it still just seems too easy.
Not that I don't trust you guys, but I'm still reluctant to base a decision this big on something I read on the internet.

So what are you looking for? You came here and asked a question. It has been answered. Two different people have given you the statutory citation -- you can go to any library and confirm that they quoted it accurately. The LAW applies to elementary and secondary schools. Period. The LAW does not address colleges and universities. Beyond that it's a matter of college/university policy. Deal with that as you see fit.

 

[UnTainted]

It's not illegal either in Idaho, though it is against the school policy and they could expel for it as well as probably bring a trespass action

 

[goon]

So what are you looking for? You came here and asked a question. It has been answered. Two different people have given you the statutory citation -- you can go to any library and confirm that they quoted it accurately. The LAW applies to elementary and secondary schools. Period. The LAW does not address colleges and universities. Beyond that it's a matter of college/university policy. Deal with that as you see fit.

First of all, you need to chill.
My situation might be as simple as it seems or it might not.
Either way, why do you feel the need to be so confrontational about it when all I'm trying to do is keep myself from getting killed or going to the state pen?


Second, imagine my defense if somehow these well intentioned guys who are helping me find sources and statutes missed something.
"Well gee your honor, I read on the internet that it was legal so I figured it was OK."

Sure, those statutes are accurate.
That doesn't mean that there isn't some obscure law out there that none of us have ever heard of that's just waiting to grab me by the family jewels and squeeze real hard.

Third, I'd much rather have a letter from the PA Attorney General's office giving me solid legal ground to stand on than a printoff from THR.
With a letter from them I can start informing people of the law and possibly start a CCW on campus movement at my school and at any others in PA who don't straight up prohibit CCW.
With a printout from an internet message board I'd just look like an idiot.

I've been getting and giving guidance on this board for about five years now and it's a great place for that.
But just because I read something on the net doesn't mean I should run right out and try it without thinking it through.

 

[Airman193SOS]

You can start a movement now. There's a fledgling national organization, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, that is looking for school representatives. See if your school is listed here. If not, volunteer. I'm a relatively short-timer with a family to support (along with two jobs and the Guard), so I don't have the time to devote to it. Otherwise I'd be all over it. But an incompetent leader is even worse than none at all, so I can't step up. More's the pity.

 

[Rumble]

goon, unless I missed something, we're not telling you to do anything. We're just telling you "this is what it says; you pays your money and you takes your chances." If you want further clarification, by all means contact the AG or the state police.

 

[goon]

goon, unless I missed something, we're not telling you to do anything. We're just telling you "this is what it says; you pays your money and you takes your chances." If you want further clarification, by all means contact the AG or the state police.

I totally understand that and appreciate all the help from you and the others who contributed.
It gives me an excellent place to start.

What I didn't appreciate was someone getting an attitude with me for asking questions and trying to find out where I stand legally, especially when it's been an entirely helpful and civil thread up to that point.

My post before this one was in no way directed at you.


As for contacting the state police, every time I try that on a gun law they try to refer me to a dealer or pass it off as "I'm pretty sure that's illegal". It seems as though they don't even know the laws they're supposed to be enforcing. I'd bet money that even if CCW on campus is as entirely legal as I'm tentatively thinking it might be, you'd still get arrested if someone noticed.
That's another reason I want to work on getting confirmation from the State AG's office. They have helped me out in the past and if I can get something in writing from them I can start by educating the police about the legality. Then if someone (including me) does CCW on campus they'll have one less thing to worry about.

I sincerely do appreciate the help from you, Airman193SOS, General Geoff, SJG26 and the others who have contributed your experience though.

 

[ilbob]

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.

IANAL, but I seem to recall that there is a difference between something not being illegal, and the law allowing you a defense for doing something that is illegal.

 

[SJG26]

This thread is quickly entering the realm of dead horses and run-over cats................it's legal...move on....nothing to see here!