Apartment Carry

[skt239]

I searched around and could not find an answer, forgive me
If this has been discussed...

My wife and I live in an apartment building in N.VA, just a few min outside our nationals awful capital. Is it legal for my wife, who does not have a permit, to carry inside the apartment building (not inside our actual apartment) or outside on the property? She sometimes wants to carry when going to the car at night your when using the gym. Is there anything on the books that address apartment carry?

Thanks in advance.

 

[LeontheProfessional]

In the great state of VA it is legal to open carry so that is her option. I wouldn't recommend that she tries to conceal it without out a permit considering that you do not own the apartment complex.

 

[Onward Allusion]

OC'ing is an option...

Also, here's an excerpt from your books... Not legal advice, however, note keyword in bold then go look up legal definition. Draw your own conclusions.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry; penalty.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.

B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

With that said, VA's CC requirements are pretty straightforward and easy. She should just get her CCW. Heck even a hunter safety class cert qualifies as documented proof.

 

[skt239]

Onward,

Thanks for posting that. So I guess determining what qualifies as "curtilage" is key here.

Professor,

Open carry is an option but would probably cause a stir in this neighborhood. Although I would not find a five foot petite pregnant young woman who was armed to be threating, many others here would probably feel differently.

 

[JERRY]

open carry is completely legal anywhere in Va. but in NoVa area i strongly recommend Concealed carry. it takes very little effort for a law abiding citizen to get a ccw permit in Va.

 

[bikerdoc]

What JERRY said in post 5.

I am at the opposite end of the state. O C is common, especially in the summer. Once in a while some tourist from up north will go apoplectic when seeing it. Polite people will say "you aint from around here are you?"
Me, I tell them, "Welcome to the real U S of A.
I digress, get a permit.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Is it legal for my wife, who does not have a permit, to carry inside the apartment building (not inside our actual apartment) or outside on the property?...

I doubt it, at least concealed. As others have said open carry without a permit is legal in Virginia.

While in general most States permit concealed carry of a firearm within one's own property, in an apartment/condominium complex/building, the space outside the walls of your own unit is considered "common area" and not curtilage since it is not space that you have exclusive dominion and control over. So I suggest that the OP's wife should not consider carrying concealed outside their actual apartment without a permit. But AFAIK, a concealed carry permit is fairly easy to get in Virginia.

 

[MedWheeler]

"Curtilage" will be a tough sell in the practice of concealed carry (unlicensed) in this case due to two primary factors. One is the "privacy" that curtilage is presumed to maintain, that entrance onto said curtilage would be restricted from the general public, and some shielding of the activities that take place on it would be presumed as well. Curtilage comes up frequently in Fourth Amendment cases, as it has been debated as to whether or not non-warranted entry onto it would be any more permitted by law enforcement officers than non-warranted (uninvited) entry directly into a domicile.
The other factor would be the use of the property being claimed as curtilage in the "domestic activities" of daily life. This would be a little more gray. Certainly, washing of clothing would be considered a "domestic activity of daily living", so it could be argued that a communal laundry room would be within the curtilage. But, distance from the "living" portion of the property is often factored in whether or not other property is considered "curtilage"; a parking spot some distance away from the building entrance might be questionable. Also, whether or not other individuals who are not members of one's household have access to one's property also determine curtilage status, so the laundry room could still be non-curtilage property.
In a Fourth Amendment context: Let's say a street cop is flagged down and told that Jay, a resident of the building, is selling dope in the laundry room. The cop comes onto the common grounds and sees Jay standing near the laundry room, which is directly across the hall from his apartment. Before the cop even calls out to him or tries to confront him, Jay casually enters his apartment and closes the door. Of course, the cop has no legal grounds to enter the apartment without being let in by Jay (or another household member.) But, can the officer check the laundry room for evidence? I'm pretty sure that he would be within the law to do so.
I'm not a lawyer by any means. I just like picking at legal interpretations.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Here are a couple of definitions of "curtilage":

• Wikipedia (emphasis added):

  The curtilage is an important legal term to define the land immediately surrounding a house or dwelling, including any closely associated buildings and structures, but excluding any associated 'open fields beyond'. It defines the boundary within which a home owner can have a reasonable expectation of privacy and where 'intimate home activities' take place. It is an important legal concept in some jurisdictions for the understanding of burglary, trespass, and in relation to planning controls.

  
  
• Your Dictionary (emphasis added):

  The land immediately surrounding a dwelling, such as a yard and outbuildings, where some of the regular activity of the occupantÂ’s home life takes place, where the occupant has a reasonable expectation of privacy, and that is usually demarcated, fenced off, or otherwise clearly protected from public scrutiny. Such land is regarded as a part of the dwelling itself and is protected from warrantless searches under the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Also called open fields doctrine or messuage.

Note the common element of "a reasonable expectation of privacy." In an apartment/condominium complex/building, one has no reasonable expectation of privacy in the common areas.

 

[steelerdude99]

... Is it legal for my wife, who does not have a permit, to carry inside the apartment building (not inside our actual apartment) or outside on the property? She sometimes wants to carry when going to the car at night your when using the gym. Is there anything on the books that address apartment carry?

skt239,
Why risk it; per state law, a Virginia conceal carry permit is somewhat easy to get (there is a required class and a fee of about $50 or so depending on locality).

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm

Something to remember about VA conceal carry; the address on the NON-PICTURE-ID conceal carry must match your state issued ID, such as your drivers license. To get the conceal carry permit, go to the city or county courthouse of the address listed on your state issued ID. If you move even within the issuing city or county, you must update both the state issued ID and conceal carry permit.

chuck

 

[hermannr]

IMHO: Open Carry if you do not have a nanny permit from the king. It is legal beyond question...even if some uneducated people may become upset.

 

[steelerdude99]

IMHO: Open Carry if you do not have a nanny permit from the king. It is legal beyond question...even if some uneducated people may become upset.

hermannr,
I prefer the "low-profile" approach. With open carry even though you may be legal, you may get tackled, arrested and dragged into court. Or even worse shot and killed. A panic stricken person sees a man with open carry and calls 911 and reports, "Man with a gun". After it gets dispatched another false statement is added, and ... Before too long, you may be center of attention of something you did not bargain for. No thanks..

chuck

 

[skt239]

Thanks for the replies everyone...

She has been wanting to get her permit for a while but never has time for the class. She is a works and goes to school full time so getting the class done has been a problem. Now that she is 6 months pregnant, taking the class is not possible at all. She does have her Kimber pepper blaster on her at all times so there is some measure of protection.

The carry gun she wants is a 938/238. She likes the 238 and was ready to get one but now wants to check out a 938 before I plop down the cash on the 238. I think something that small could be open carried and out of the way considering the size. The few times I've opened carried a full size gun, it seemed like no one noticed. In fact, after a class the instruction took us all to five guys, everyone OC'd and nobody seemed to notice.

hermannr,
I prefer the "low-profile" approach. With open carry even though you may be legal, you may get tackled, arrested and dragged into court. Or even worse shot and killed. A panic stricken person sees a man with open carry and calls 911 and reports, "Man with a gun". After it gets dispatched another false statement is added, and ... Before too long, you may be center of attention of something you did not bargain for. No thanks..

chuck

This^^^

Both my wife and I agree that our biggest concern with her open carrying is not the common gun shy pedestrian, but rather a bold and brazen criminal who see an opportunity to snatch a nice gun. Given her size and extremely non threatening hippie chick appearance, she would make a good mark. We all know that situational awareness is king but all it takes is one slip up...

 

[JERRY]

skt239, your wife being 6 months pregnant will not stop her from sitting in a classroom for one day to get her "firearms" safety cert. to meet the training requirements. she will get potty breaks every 45 minutes or so.

When i lived in NoVa my wife took her class in a conference room on saturday. it was hosted by an NRA instructor, mostly women but some guys in the class too.

 

[skt239]

skt239, your wife being 6 months pregnant will not stop her from sitting in a classroom for one day to get her "firearms" safety cert. to meet the training requirements. she will get potty breaks every 45 minutes or so.

When i lived in NoVa my wife took her class in a conference room on saturday. it was hosted by an NRA instructor, mostly women but some guys in the class too.

The classroom portion is not the problem, it is the range time. It seems like all the local ones we've found require some sort of range time.

 

[JERRY]

that must have changed since i lived there.....no range time required by the state either.....a hunter's safety course will do it for most, i had a DD214 and prior police certs, my wife had nothing.....i took her shooting at Clark Bros and Blue Ridge Arsonal a few times, but for her cert. it was just an 8ish hour classroom setting only, no test. the only test she took was written in order to get her NRA range card.

 

[Homeless1911]

No Class Room; No Range Time

I registered on THR just so I could pass along my experience. I've been lurking here for quite some time.

The short answer. Pay $40 and watch the 60-minute video of an NRA Instructor giving the safety course.
http://www.concealed-carry.net/

You can refer to this page
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm

Below this paragraph, "The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun".

Look at "7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;"

The long answer. While working a night shift, where doing this is preferable to falling asleep, I found the above. Watched the video (twice, actually). Printed out all my documentation. Stopped by a UPS Store for the notary, envelope, and postage stamps. Then, went straight to the circuit court (Fairfax City for me) to drop off all the documentation. I went late morning and had to wait behind two other people dropping off their paperwork. Just short of the 45 days, I get my self-addressed stamped envelope in the mail with my CCW.

This was towards the end of 2011.

I wouldn't recommend this route for anyone who's never handled a gun, but it sounds like it'll work for you.

- Jim

 

[Onward Allusion]

^^^
I was just about to recommend exactly this. Not for everyone and definitely not for anyone who has never handled a firearm, but it sounds like the OP's wife would be an ideal candidate.

 

[skt239]

Homeless,

Thanks a lot for the excellent recommendation!

I didn't think range time was a requirement, it's just the few places we looked into offered it. The online class will definitely work for the little lady.

Homeless, I think you've found a home

Thanks again and welcome to the forum.