Apartment (without lease) ?'s

[cchris]

I've tried to search for something regarding this, but it's difficult to find. I'll give as many details as possible to begin with to avoid any confusion: I am legally old enough to own a handgun, I do not have a concealed weapons permit at the moment (getting around to it though), and I live in South Carolina, which has pretty uniform gun laws throughout.

A while back, my mother purchased a condominium in Columbia that was fully hers - the same as owning a house, minus being able to repaint the exterior. The building itself is four apartments on one set of stairs (two on bottom, two on top) and there is another one facing the opposite direction on the other side of the building. There is also a second building separated by a few hundred feet, for a grand total of 16 units.

I moved into her apartment after my parents divorced and kept my things there while I was at college, and lived there over the summer. Last summer, my mother got remarried and purchased a house with her husband, leaving the place to my sister and I. After graduating college, I moved back into the apartment temporarily, but it is not the address listed on my license (not my "permanent" home address, since I don't know if she'll be selling it).

So as you can see, there is no lease involved, just that I am related to the owner and am staying here, but it is not my "permanent home address".

My first question is: If someone breaks into the apartment, can I NOT use lethal force once they have broken down the door and set foot inside? I am assuming it's up to the owner, which is perfectly alright in this case (my mother carries a Ruger LCP so she's certainly no "anti").

My second question is a little more "fuzzy": There have been these bums hanging out in the parking lot, mostly asking people for change but some people living here have felt "threatened" by them (i.e., being followed to their door suspiciously). The police don't really do much about it, other than driving there that one time, but the bums always return. If one of them confronts me, I'll have a big stick with me or something in case they get violent, like when I'm taking the dog out late at night. As I suspect some of them are criminals, I've considered tucking a pistol in the back of my pants, just in case one of them is armed. Since this is in the parking lot of the apartment, what are my rights here? The apartment itself is "private property" owned by either the homeowner's association or all owners combined, but is it considered a "public place" since it is a connected parking lot for all units? Am I able to defend myself here with lethal force if confronted with lethal force?

I know, the easy solution is to get my CWP, but I'm a little short on money at the moment.

 

[w_houle]

The stated intent of the legislation is to codify the common law castle doctrine, which recognizes that a person’s home is his castle, and to extend the doctrine to include an occupied vehicle and the person’s place of business. This bill authorizes the lawful use of deadly force under certain circumstances against an intruder or attacker in a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle. The bill provides that there is no duty to retreat if (1) the person is in a place where he has a right to be, including the person’s place of business, (2) the person is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and (3) the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death, great bodily injury, or the commission of a violent crime. A person who lawfully uses deadly force is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action, unless the person against whom deadly force was used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties and he identifies himself in accordance with applicable law or the person using deadly force knows or reasonably should have known the person is a law enforcement officer.

Sounds like if you legally close your eyes to sleep there that you are entitled to defend yourself from intruders
http://www.sled.sc.gov/ProtectionOfPeople.aspx?MenuID=CWP

 

[cchris]

Thanks, I knew of that legislation but it seems a bit unclear in some parts. I know the landmark reference instance of this was the man who shot a criminal wielding a gun at an AA meeting last summer, but he had a CWP.

Does the castle doctrine not just cover those with a permit to carry a concealed firearm?

And if I have the gun concealed in the parking lot without a permit (but not off the premises), am I carrying it illegally?

 

[w_houle]

Thanks, I knew of that legislation but it seems a bit unclear in some parts. I know the landmark reference instance of this was the man who shot a criminal wielding a gun at an AA meeting last summer, but he had a CWP.

Does the castle doctrine not just cover those with a permit to carry a concealed firearm?

It should, bit I would like to know more about the case before I can say what the issue was about.

And if I have the gun concealed in the parking lot without a permit (but not off the premises), am I carrying it illegally?

Define concealed carry. Having your gun in it's case, in a backpack might not be defined as concealed carry. There might be other ways to transport to and from, without showing that you are walking around with a gun that isn't in violation of the law. Hopefully someone will cmme in and give good advice

 

[ArmedBear]

If you are concerned, I'd say draw up an open-ended agreement for you to live there in return for "one dollar and other valuable consideration", and that doesn't obligate your mother to allow you to stay, nor obligate you to stay if you don't want to. Print it from your computer, give your mom a dollar and some chewing gun, everyone involved signs at the bottom, and voila, you're the lessor.

AFAIK there's nothing saying that a "lease" has to be anything more than that, and since you're not paying anything right now anyway, your mother is probably not going to worry about the legal ramifications of evicting you for not paying the rent. Of course, the exact details and implications may vary from state to state, and IANAL.

Furthermore, were I your mom and her husband, I would want anyone living in my units to be lessors, not guests. That should help them to avoid legal liability for anything you or your sister might do, of our own volition, on the property. I'm guessing they have a lot more assets to lose in a civil case than you would, so any lawsuits would be filed against them, not you, if there's any legal way to do it.

IANAL. Consult a lawyer if you have any questions. I am not giving legal advice. However, as a property owner and a former landlord, I am offering the suggestion that you may want to contact an attorney and ask about this stuff, what a lease must contain, what liability is created or shielded by a lease, etc. in your state. Good luck.

 

[BridgeTooFar]

DISCLAIMER: I AM IN NO WAY GIVING YOU LEGAL ADVICE.

As to your first question: You're fine keeping a gun in that apartment and using it if it becomes necessary. A motor home or hotel room becomes your dwelling for the period of time you are using one of those, so there's no reason that the apartment wouldn't be seen similarly in the eyes of the law. So long as you're not a squatter or trespasser, that apartment is your "dwelling" for all intents and purposes.

As to your second question: Without a CWP, going to / coming from your vehicle in the parking lot into the building, you'd probably be ok; however, while walking the dog, etc., you'd likely not be ok with carrying around a concealed weapon.

 

[danez71]

I'm not a lawyer and the only way your going to get a 99.9% sure answer is talking to one with the CCR's in hand. A CCW permit would be cheaper.

The parking lot is considered "common area". Your mom basically ownes 1/16 of it with 15 other partners so to speak.

I "think" it would still be considered private property and your gun laws should allow CC on your private property.

Since your mom basically only has a 1/16 interest in the "common area private property" I "think" it would only be the CC&Rs, that are the collective agreement of all 16 owners, that may restrict what you can/cant do.

I would think that if you CC in your common area parking lot no one would know unless you had to pull your gun and the police got involved. I would also think that a lawyer would be able to save you.

However, as I said in the beginning, getting the CC permit is cheaper all around and legally more safe
The CCR

 

[Art Eatman]

As for the parking lot? I'd ask a local attorney, since no other state's laws are relevant.