Carry on apartment complex property

[cleardiddion]

So, I just went through something interesting.

I was awake at this ungodly hour when all of a sudden it sounded like someone was dragging furniture. Y'know, when you drag a heavy table and it's resisting every which way and getting caught up on the floor.

That gets my heartbeat up a bit.

So I grab my PA-63 which is car/bedside gun. I have a Mossy 500A but it sounded like it could be right outside my door and that thing certainly isn't the most manuverable thing ever. After I grabbed my pistol I went and peeked my head out and checked the rest of the apartment.

Anywho, I didn't end up finding anything but that sure woke me up and it rattled me a bit. So, I went out to grab a smoke with my 63 in a IWB under my hoodie (yes it does get a bit chilly in FL, sometimes).

Now, my question is to whether this was legal at all.

Florida states that you can CC without a license (I don't) on private property.

The way I understand this, since I was right outside my door on a privately owned apartment complex that legally I was in the green but I don't know for certain.

I was wondering if the wise in legalfu here could help me out a bit on this issue.

 

[bdickens]

Is it "on private property" or "on your private property?"

 

[mp510]

There was an episode of COPS several years ago where somebody was arrested for carrying concealed without a permit. He claimed that he thought that common areas of the complex were legal. The officer told him only his apartment was covered.

(IIRC, the cops had been called because he was showing off his new (holstered) XD [concealed sometimes, not others] around the complex and also making claims that he was responsible for a bank robbery that day)

 

[NavyLCDR]

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES....HTM&Title=->2009->Ch0790->Section 25#0790.25

790.25 Lawful ownership, possession, and use of firearms and other weapons.--

(n) A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business;

You were illegal. You rent the area of your apartment, you do not rent the common areas. Part of your rent may go towards you paying for the enjoyment of common facilities, but you do not have the liberties to do the same things to those common facilities as you do with your apartment - IE make rules, decide who comes in and who doesn't, etc. Once you step outside your apartment door, you are no longer in your home, now you are at the owner's place of business.

Assuming you don't have a CHL, of course. Get a CHL and it's no problem.

 

[wishin]

There was an episode of COPS several years ago where somebody was arrested for carrying concealed without a permit. He claimed that he thought that common areas of the complex were legal. The officer told him only his apartment was covered.

The LEO may have gotten it right this time, but I think we all know that they're not always up on the finer points of the law. That said, "he thought" is a good way to test the "ignorance of the law is no defense" concept!:banghead:

 

[Art Eatman]

Me, I'd ask a Florida lawyer. Not ask a cop; not ask an Internet "expert".

Then again, maybe your landlord might actually favor your action, which would probably make it okay insofar as Florida law is concerned.

Messing around with this idea, there would be a similarity with a business owner approving an employee's toting. Same liability issue, of course.

Looking toward the future, I'll also suggest getting a CHL...

 

[cleardiddion]

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.
I'll be getting a CHL as soon as soon as possible, but I have to wait till May and I'm back home to get that. I've got duel residency between Colorado and Florida because I go to school down here and the law changed a while back to where CO won't recongnize FL permits.

Oh well, could be worse I guess.

 

[brboyer]

Me, I'd ask a Florida lawyer. Not ask a cop; not ask an Internet "expert".

Then again, maybe your landlord might actually favor your action, which would probably make it okay insofar as Florida law is concerned.

Messing around with this idea, there would be a similarity with a business owner approving an employee's toting. Same liability issue, of course.

Looking toward the future, I'll also suggest getting a CHL...

Then again, maybe your landlord might actually favor your action, which would probably make it okay insofar as Florida law is concerned.

Nope, still unlawful.

Messing around with this idea, there would be a similarity with a business owner approving an employee's toting. Same liability issue, of course.

Nope, different situation. The law says "A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business" [can carry openly or concealed without need for a license]
No approval required by business owner.

 

[shockwave]

This was covered in my FL CCW class I took last weekend. I am not a lawyer, but the instructor said that you can carry concealed on private property if you have the permission of the property owner. He also said that if we had any difficult legal issues, to see a lawyer. So, right, you can have a firearm in your apartment but you can't take it outside unless the landlord gives you the go-ahead.

The relevant laws are posted here. I couldn't find any references to apartment complexes, rental property, etc.

This link at FL CCW is very much in line with what we were told in the class. If a private property owner requests that you leave the premises, the moment you do not comply with the request you are trespassing. So private property owners can put up signs saying, "No guns." There may be some case law at work here, because the statute is clear in terms of where concealed carry is prohibited and "private property" was not listed.

Now, I plan to carry concealed pretty much everywhere not prohibited, because concealed is concealed and shouldn't be an issue.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This was covered in my FL CCW class I took last weekend. I am not a lawyer, but the instructor said that you can carry concealed on private property if you have the permission of the property owner.

We are talking apples and oranges here. You are speaking about carrying a concealed weapon WITH a license. The OP is talking about carrying a concealed weapon WITHOUT a license.

The exception in 790.25(n) is for carrying a concealed weapon WITHOUT a license, and applies only on private property or business OWNED or otherwise in control of as in RENTED or LEASED by the person carrying the concealed weapon without a license. I cannot give you permission to carry a concealed weapon without a license on my property, it is still illegal.

 

[shockwave]

We are talking apples and oranges here. You are speaking about carrying a concealed weapon WITH a license. The OP is talking about carrying a concealed weapon WITHOUT a license.

An important distinction. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[divemedic]

You were illegal. You rent the area of your apartment, you do not rent the common areas. Part of your rent may go towards you paying for the enjoyment of common facilities, but you do not have the liberties to do the same things to those common facilities as you do with your apartment - IE make rules, decide who comes in and who doesn't, etc. Once you step outside your apartment door, you are no longer in your home, now you are at the owner's place of business.

Gutmacher says the same thing in his book.

 

[Art Eatman]

brboyer:

"Quote:
Then again, maybe your landlord might actually favor your action, which would probably make it okay insofar as Florida law is concerned.

Nope, still unlawful."

You mean I couldn't tell a renter that it was okay for him to carry in the hallway or yard, outside his rental unit? I would be creating an agent for whom I have incurred liability, but I know of no law preventing my decision about the use of my property.


"Quote:
Messing around with this idea, there would be a similarity with a business owner approving an employee's toting. Same liability issue, of course.

Nope, different situation. The law says "A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business" [can carry openly or concealed without need for a license]

No approval required by business owner."

You mean I couldn't tell an employee not to carry in a store of which I am the owner? An employee cannot carry without the owner's approval. It's the owner's place of business, not the employee's.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It's the owner's place of business, not the employee's.

And as such, according the Florida statute posted, an employee would not be able to carry concealed without a license or open carry either, even with owner's permission because the statute specifically says his or her place of business, meaning ownership or at least being HMFIC at such location.

 

[divemedic]

I disagree. One does not need to be the owner of a business in order for that to be your place of business. If this were not the case, every employee of every gun store in Orlando would be arrested.

 

[brboyer]

brboyer:

Quote:
Then again, maybe your landlord might actually favor your action, which would probably make it okay insofar as Florida law is concerned.

Nope, still unlawful.

You mean I couldn't tell a renter that it was okay for him to carry in the hallway or yard, outside his rental unit? I would be creating an agent for whom I have incurred liability, but I know of no law preventing my decision about the use of my property. Property owners wishes/desires are irrelevant. The state of Florida has sole, sovereign authority to regulate firearms within the state.

Florida Statute 790.053 makes it unlawful to carry a firearm openly anywhere in the state.
Florida Statute 790.01 makes it unlawful to carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the State. Your property, my property, the state's property, it does not matter.
Now we have 790.25(3) which in effect says that you can carry a firearm openly and you do not need a license to carry a concealed firearm in certain locations/situations...One of them being

(n)A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business

The common area at your apartment complex is not the individuals home. Now if he works for you, then he would be covered by the 'Place of Business' portion.

Quote:
Messing around with this idea, there would be a similarity with a business owner approving an employee's toting. Same liability issue, of course.

Nope, different situation. The law says "A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business" [can carry openly or concealed without need for a license]

No approval required by business owner.

You mean I couldn't tell an employee not to carry in a store of which I am the owner? Sure you can, but it would still not be unlawful for him to do so. If you find out you surely can fire him for it. [This has been established by case law] An employee cannot carry without the owner's approval. Lawfully speaking, this is incorrect] It's the owner's place of business, not the employee's.Courts have established that for the purposes of this statute "Place of Business' means where an individual works.

Please note we are speaking of an individual that does not possess a Florida CWFL or other reciprocal state's license/permit.

 

[brboyer]

And as such, according the Florida statute posted, an employee would not be able to carry concealed without a license or open carry either, even with owner's permission because the statute specifically says his or her place of business, meaning ownership or at least being HMFIC at such location.

You are incorrect. Case law has established that for the purposes of this statute, 'Place of Business' is where an individual works.

 

[shockwave]

I disagree. One does not need to be the owner of a business in order for that to be your place of business. If this were not the case, every employee of every gun store in Orlando would be arrested.

If I understand the law correctly, you can open carry on private property with the permission of the owner. If the owner of the property asks you to leave said property, refusal to do so is criminal trespass.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Case law has established that for the purposes of this statute, 'Place of Business' is where an individual works.

Please provide citations.

 

[divemedic]

Collins v State, 475 So.2d 968 (Fla. 4DCA 1985)- stating that "place of business" includes surrounding property owned by the BUSINESS, along with buildings situated thereon, and any other portion of the property where your duties usually take you

State v Commons, 592 So.2d 317 (Fla. 3DCA 1991) -stating that you don't even need your employer's permission to carry at your place of business

 

[brboyer]

Collins v State, 475 So.2d 968 (Fla. 4DCA 1985)- stating that "place of business" includes surrounding property owned by the BUSINESS, along with buildings situated thereon, and any other portion of the property where your duties usually take you

State v Commons, 592 So.2d 317 (Fla. 3DCA 1991) -stating that you don't even need your employer's permission to carry at your place of business

Thanks Dive....

 

[brboyer]

If I understand the law correctly, you can open carry on private property with the permission of the owner. If the owner of the property asks you to leave said property, refusal to do so is criminal trespass.

You are correct about refusing to leave property when asked. Trespassing or if armed, criminal trespass.

A property owner has no authority to somehow magically grant someone permission to violate the law.

 

[Frank Ettin]

It does appear that in Florida "place of business" can include "place of employment."

I think the Florida view is a minority view, and in most states it's your "place of employment" only if you have a proprietary interest in the business.

 

[brboyer]

It does appear that in Florida "place of business" can include "place of employment."

I think the Florida view is a minority view, and in most states it's your "place of employment" only if you have a proprietary interest in the business.

Along those lines, would you also think "his or her home" implies some form of ownership? Rental, lease, etc?

 

[divemedic]

No. Legally, your home is where you reside. This is not just a gun thing- the courts have repeatedly ruled on this one. If you live there, get mail there, etc, it is your home, even if you are not the owner or on the lease.

Remember that you do not even need a lease in Florida to rent property. If a guy gives you money to live in your spare room, he now lives there. In those cases, he is considered to be on a month to month basis, and cannot be just kicked out, he must be evicted.