Apartment Defense: Specific Loads

[sixgunner455]

If I was basically one-handed, I'd want a gun easy to run with my one hand, and that held whatever I thought was enough rounds to deal with things. I would want to shoot a variety of guns to get a feel for the various grips and recoil characteristics.

I would seriously consider a K frame S&W, or stashing several around the apartment. I would then start considering whether I would want the expense of purchasing three or four guns, or just start looking at fulll sized GLOCKs, M&P, XD, and SIG-Sauer.

A full-sized plastic framed pistol like an M&P can be had used as a police trade-in from Buds Guns for under $400. No decocker, if it has a safety lever it will be ambidextrous, mag release should be reversible but that doesn't even matter really - reload speed matters a bit less when the capacity is 2-3x greater than the revolver or 1911. A SIG SP2022 can be had brand new for $500, and most of these guns are in similar price ranges.

Were I in your shoes, I would get a full-size or compact 9mm that holds at least 15 rounds, that has night sights and a rail, load it with 90-115gr frangibles that will break up on impact with drywall, and I would get a light that mounts to that rail so you can be certain to have a light with you - the bright ones have enough light splash that you can light up an area to see what's going on without having to point it at someone you aren't sure needs shooting.

I would get one or two spare magazines and an Uplula magazine loader so range shooting is not slowed as much as it would be with just one magazine.

I would get 9mm for several reasons. First, because the guns of each relative size hold more rounds. You won't be reloading in a fight, so more on-board rounds than two full size revolvers is a Good Thing. Second, practice ammo in 9mm costs half as much as .45, and a third less than .40. You will be able to afford to shoot more per dollar spent. That is a Good Thing. This is a new skill - it will need work. Third, 9mm recoil is less per relative sized guns. You are a new shooter. A gun that is pleasant to shoot, like a full-sized 9mm, will be more likely to get shot a lot.

Have fun shopping!

 

[suemarkp]

Since he's in Maryland, he can't buy a gun with a detachable magazine capacity of over 10 rounds. So he needs to decide if 10 is enough per magazine, or can he easily drive to an adjacent state and buy them. Possession is legal in Maryland, you just can't buy or sell or receive them there.

If he stays with 10 round mags, the question then is should he go higher caliber since the ammo capacity is limited.

 

[flints]

This all sounds over the top for someone from Ireland, If you don't get him with the first 10 shots then he is going to use the rest on you, I think you should concentrate on the door bolts, Have you thought of the old castle style bar dropped across the door and retained at each side. Simple but effective.

 

[chaim]

As for your disability and left-handed issues, go to a gunshop and handle various handguns to see how well you can work the cylinder release of different revolvers, and rack the slide of different autos. Until then, you won't really know what will work for you. Also, see if you can get to a range that rents and try shooting a few different platforms and calibers.

As for the MD and apartment issues, I am a Marylander and live in an apartment so I have some insight here...

It is near impossible to get a MD CCW. Do you own a business where you carry a large amount of cash and routinely make large cash deposits? Do you have documented threats to your life? Are you a judge, doctor who may be a target for your prescription pad, a prosecutor or a police officer? Are you politically connected? If your answer isn't yes to at least one of these questions, you will not get a MD CCW permit (and if you can answer yes and do get one it may come with limits and conditions). MD is on record as saying that self defense is not a "good and substantial reason" to grant a carry permit. So, if carry won't be on the table, stick with full-sized or mid-sized "compact" guns, as they will be far easier to shoot well than smaller lighter CCW weapons.

Now, I too live in an apartment with thin walls between me and my neighbors. Unfortunately, no caliber or load that is good for self defense will be safe if you miss, all (even the .22lr) will easily go through several layers of drywall and other building materials. However, overpenetration is an issue to try to avoid as some loadings will go through an attacker and be a possible threat to others even if you hit. Cartridges that rely on velocity tend to be more likely to be a problem in this area so I avoid magnum loadings for home defense and I avoid the lighter offerings in 9mm and .40S&W. I prefer .38spl and larger, heavier, but slower rounds like .44spl, .45LC and .45ACP.

I don't know where in MD you are, but two of my favorite ranges with rentals are Freestate Gun Range (http://www.freestategunrange.com/) near White Marsh and Continental Arms (http://continentalarms.com/) in Timonium. I plan to try out Horst and McCann (http://horstguns.com/) in Bel Air soon. Depending upon where you live, you may find On Target (http://ontarget.biz/) near Ft. Meade more convenient (OK range, but not my favorite).

If you are near the Pikesville/Mt. Washington area, I'd be happy to meet you with a few of my guns at Continental Arms and you could try them out (Sunday mornings or afternoons would usually be best).

 

[98Redline]

I am a dyed in the wool 1911/45acp guy, and a lefty and feel if I was in your position I would not be considering a 1911 for defensive work.

If one handed shooting is the most likely scenario, the reduced recoil and muzzle flip of a 9mm will help get you back on target faster. Additionally improvements in 9mm ammunition over the years have significantly increased it's effectiveness to be even with 45acp.

Regarding the left handed operation, I actually find the normally right handed controls on a semi auto work just fine for me. I can drop the slide or eject the mag with my index finger (trigger finger) just as easily as I can with my thumb (when held in the right hand). I shot competition this way for years and never felt that it caused any slowdown in reloading or gun operation.

Regarding the ability to cock the gun, if you were to pick something like a Glock, adding one of these to the rear of the slide would require less right hand strength to rack the slide.

http://brassstacker.com/glock/slide-pull-charging-handle-for-glock-pistols.html

 

[JShirley]

Kylaen,

First, congrats on doing research before making a purchase.

As some others have said, the only real advantage of a snubby is concealability. If grip strength is an issue, relatively lightweight handguns with longer barrels can be found. I would even say that a long-barreled .22 or .22 Magnum would be a better choice than a .357 snubby for home defense.

Whatever you choose, understand the law, and practice, practice, practice.

Good luck,

John

 

[walnut1704]

I've installed a couple of these. They are stout. You need a drill with some serious torque to drive the screws though.

http://www.theultimatelock.com/

 

[Kylaen]

I'm looking at the Glock 37/38/39 series in .45 GAP. I like the .45 ACP, but I think some of these guys are right, the older 1911s won't feed defense ammo well. The reason I'm researching the .45 GAP is because it's a shorter case length, which makes it a little easier to fit into a slimmer gun, it has a stronger casehead than the ACP, and it's about 10-15% faster. I understand that the GAP only goes up to 200 grains, but I heard that Winchester did put a 230 grain round in that case. That's what I think I might want to use; a heavier, slower round. I don't anticipate needing to reload in combat. I'm gonna train until I can just about hit the target in my sleep, of course. These Glocks I mentioned are below 10 rounds, and least the mid-size 38 and the 39 are. That's where I'm kind of leaning now. The 38 has 8 rounds standard, with optional 10 round mags; Maryland compliant. I think I get get a G38 with night sights, for around $700. That's what I'm looking at buying as of right now.

 

[suemarkp]

45 GAP is a touch more expensive and harder to find than 45 ACP. One website I just went to had 77 choices of JHP 45 ACP, and 10 choices of GAP of all types and only 4 in hollow points. So I'd be sure to stock up when you find it -- perhaps buy a large quantity online to save on shipping and get a bulk discount.

There were also multiple sources of 230gr 45 GAP (Magtech, Buffalo Bore, DoubleTap). It also didn't seem any faster than most 45 ACP loads. Personally, I'd go with 45 ACP unless that frame or grip size just doesn't work for you. There are single and double stack versions available.

 

[JTQ]

I'm not sure I'm following your fascination for the .45 GAP round. As mentioned above, there is lot of downside to the round as far as cost and availability of the round, and there is a very limited option of pistols available for the round.

If I were starting out fresh today, the semi-auto at the top of my list would be some kind of polymer pistol in 9mm. They are made by practically everybody. They are available practically everywhere, in just about any size, and ammo is also inexpensive and readily available. You also have less recoil and more rounds available in the comparable sized gun.

 

[stu1ritter]

Kylaen, how well do you shoot a handgun? Seeing as you are considering a .45 caliber handgun, are you a very good shot with large caliber handguns?
Stu

 

[old lady new shooter]

If you still stay with the 38/357, S&W makes a large frame (N) that hold 7 or even 8 - that's 1911 capacity and with a speed loader, you'd be GTG for most things.

Doesn't a person need quite large hands for an N frame? My 686 Plus (7 shots) is an L frame, still on the hefty side at least weight-wise, but probably fits more people's hands.

 

[Sunray]

"...I just haven't shot any handguns yet..." That'd be the first thing to do. Go shopping and try a few handguns on for size.
"...the concussive noise and flash can easily make you deaf and blind for a few moments..." Any cartridge will do that. Even a 22.
"...modular apartments only have walls and doors a few inches thick..." Any apartment building built in the past 30 to 50 years or more is a big, hollow, re-enforced concrete block. ONLY the external doors, internal walls and windows are an issue. Same over penetration issue as a house too.
Most jurisdictions will not let you change the locks without the landlord's permission and giving him/them a key. Read your lease and State Landlords and Tenants legislation.
Mind you, if you're not on the first floor, you very likely having nothing to worry about anyway. Oh and there's over 1900 pages on the members list. Everyone on it has a different opinion. snicker.

 

[Drail]

Having spent some years repairing damage to rental properties from break ins and bullet holes and shotgun blasts I will tell you ANY caliber will penetrate walls and doors. Many times they will penetrate multiple walls and doors. And you can install the heaviest steel security door you can find and put 10 deadbolts on it - and the scumbags will just walk around and find a window to break and enter. The best alarm is a dog that will wake you up. Keep your gun loaded and ready and close to you. If someone WANTS to enter your residence they will find a way. I have seen upscale homes in rich neighborhoods with armed security gates and roving patrols and alarms and lights on every house - and the scumbags entered the home using nothing but a saw and cut an entry right through the siding, sheathing and drywall right next to the steel door. They never even touched the door. I used to live in St. Louis (Ferguson in fact) in an apartment with steel bars on every window and every door and there were still nights I was nervous. I don't live there now. I will never live in a large city again. You absolutely cannot keep them out. You can only be ready when they come. For home defense I have found nothing as effective as a shotgun.

 

[Kylaen]

JTQ, while you make good points, I'm worried that the 9mm might have too much velocity. I was hoping a slower heavier bullet would hit the bad guy easier, and not overpenetrate. Stu, I've not fired any handguns before, just a rifle. My uncle's .17 HMR varmint gun. I have one good strong wrist and arm, and I'm basically wanting to try calibers until I find a good one for me, but I want a larger, slower caliber in the hopes it will hit the bad guy and not anyone else. I'll take around 800 FPS instead of the 1300+ a 9mm will clear. Maybe I don't understand the ballistics well enough yet, I'm no physics professor. Aiming for a larger bullet will keep my capacity down, since my state limits me to ten rounds anyway. Being so limited, I'd rather hit them with a 200 or 230 grain rather than a 115. And I will train to the point where hopefully two or three rounds will be all I need to take down the bad guy, if that.

As for a shotgun, I'm hesitant. One, to even rack the shotgun I'd need to use my right hand. My right hand is weaker, has almost no fine motor control, less strength and flexibility. I've tried, I cannot pull a trigger with my right hand. Which means had I a shotgun, I'd need to rack it with the right. To do that, I'd need a 20 gauge with a pistol grip (I'd imagine I'd use my shooting hand to try to control much of the recoil, hence the pistol grip), and a vertical foregrip installed onto the pump to even have a prayer of racking in a new load. Given my apartment, wouldn't I need to load small shot, like birdshot? Can I still get a penetrating hit on a bad guy with birdshot?

 

[suemarkp]

You could try this one: http://www.mossberg.com/product/500-hs410-home-security-6-shot-50359/ I think this 410 is special and won't take any other Mossberg 500 410 barrels. So its a one solution gun. See how various rounds pattern here: http://www.410handguns.com/mossberg_spd_text.html

I'd recommend the same loads I recommended earlier for the Governor revolver -- the 3 ball 40 caliber buck, or the 4 or 5 ball federal OOO buck. There are also some #4 buck loads in the 3" shells. Maybe the Winchester PDX load as it has "defense disks and BB pellets". Not so sure it will adequately penetrate though. The largest birdshot commonly found in 410 is #4 which I think is just too small. But maybe that could be the first round out of the gun.

 

[GoPappy]

I'm a lefty. For a completely ambidextrous pistol, look at the Bersa Thunder Pro series. You can get it either in .40 or 9mm. The mag on the 9mm holds 17 rounds; the .40 holds 13, so you've got either 18 rounds (17+1) or 14 rounds (13+1) available without a mag change. If you're in a scenario in your apartment where 18 rounds isn't enough, you're probably in deep trouble anyway.

Here's a link to the full size:

https://bersa.eagleimportsinc.com/bersa/firearms/thunder-pro-series

It has a safety/decocker and a slide release on both sides, and the mag release button can easily be switched to the right side if you wish. (I've grown so used to using my left index finger (my trigger finger) to work the mag release, I just leave it on the left side.)

I just bought the Thunder Pro 9 Ultra Compact, and I really, really like it. I'm thinking about buying the full size version.

The other good news is that they can be bought for less than $400. Don't let the price fool you - they are not cheap junk.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A handgun is difficult to shoot accurately, and takes a lot of practice. A snub-nosed handgun is even harder to shoot accurately. Add low light conditions and high stress, and the handgun is less than optimum. For home defense, I'd choose a pump shotgun, and leave the snubby for concealed carry.

 

[ugaarguy]

I'm worried that the 9mm might have too much velocity. I was hoping a slower heavier bullet would hit the bad guy easier, and not overpenetrate. ... I want a larger, slower caliber in the hopes it will hit the bad guy and not anyone else. I'll take around 800 FPS instead of the 1300+ a 9mm will clear. Maybe I don't understand the ballistics well enough yet, I'm no physics professor. Aiming for a larger bullet will keep my capacity down, since my state limits me to ten rounds anyway. Being so limited, I'd rather hit them with a 200 or 230 grain rather than a 115. And I will train to the point where hopefully two or three rounds will be all I need to take down the bad guy, if that.

Actually, you have it reversed. A longer, skinnier, more lightly constructed bullet, at very high velocity, will generally fragment or tumble and thereby penetrate less than a slower, fatter, heavier bullet at low velocity.

However, a 115 gr 9mm at 1300 FPS is still slow, round, and heavy compared to a 62 gr .223 at 3000 FPS. Even heavier, fatter, slower bullets like standard pressure 230 gr .45 ACP are a recipe for deep penetration.

Here's some eye opening info: http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

Even given the comparably low penetration of fragmenting .223 rounds vs handgun rounds, they still penetrated two walls worth of sheet rock. Any round that has enough penetration to stop an attacker is going to penetrate sheet rock walls.

As for a shotgun, I'm hesitant. One, to even rack the shotgun I'd need to use my right hand. My right hand is weaker, has almost no fine motor control, less strength and flexibility. I've tried, I cannot pull a trigger with my right hand. Which means had I a shotgun, I'd need to rack it with the right. To do that, I'd need a 20 gauge with a pistol grip (I'd imagine I'd use my shooting hand to try to control much of the recoil, hence the pistol grip), and a vertical foregrip installed onto the pump to even have a prayer of racking in a new load. Given my apartment, wouldn't I need to load small shot, like birdshot? Can I still get a penetrating hit on a bad guy with birdshot?

Given your physical limitations a shotgun looks to be a very poor choice for you. If you can comfortably use a 5.7 lb carbine then a Beretta CX4 Storm or similar 9mm carbine would probably be an excellent choice. If that's too heavy then finding a handgun you can comfortably load, shoot, unload, and reload is the only course of action. A handgun you can reliably use beats no gun at all.

 

[stu1ritter]

Kylaen, I heartily suggest you go to http://tinyurl.com/ozrlky2 and study the manual. All 10 chapters. This is the very basics of hand gun shooting. This is not all that easy. It's not the caliber, it's shot placement and in order to place your shots, you have to be able to shoot. Find some place where you can use a .22LR handgun and learn how to shoot it before trying to deal with recoil management of a larger caliber. You simply cannot learn to shoot accurately with a large caliber handgun because of the recoil. There is an exercise called ball and dummy, the manual covers it. On Army pistol teams we would do half an hour of it every morning to attempt managing the recoil. AND we were shooting all day long, that was our job, but still, the human body has difficulties with recoil and you have to learn to overcome it and trying to learn to shoot a handgun at the same time is almost impossible for accurate fire. In an apartment defense scenario, you want nothing but accurate fire. Thoughts of a guy who has been competing in Bullseye for 60 years.
Stu

 

[Sarge7402]

For a round that won't go sailing thru several sheet rock walls, if you can find them Magsafe makes a wicked little number. Essentialy it's bird shot in a copper jacket suspended in something like superglue. back several years ago we fired one into a honey dew melon. Never exited the rear of the melon. When we cut it open it had turned the inside pulp into mush

 

[JTQ]

JTQ, while you make good points, I'm worried that the 9mm might have too much velocity. I was hoping a slower heavier bullet would hit the bad guy easier, and not overpenetrate.

Modern defense rounds are all designed to basically do the same thing with very similar performance. However, as ugaarguy says, a lighter weight, lightly constructed, faster bullet, will typically penetrate less than the heavier bullet.

For instance, much blame in the 1986 Miami Shootout was placed on the 9mm 115 gr Winchester Silvertip for the failure to penetrate deep enough, though rapid expansion and shallow penetration were hallmarks of the round. This perceived failure, due to lack of penetration, caused the shift to heavier bullets to get more penetration as found in the .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and even the heavier weights of 9mm such as 124 gr and 147 gr becoming more popular defense rounds in the ensuing years.

 

[Drail]

My most humble apologies - I did not realize you only have one usable hand. Suggesting a shotgun was a dumb mistake on my part. I fully sympathize with you as I am also losing the use of my hands and legs. I hope you find a solution.

 

[rbernie]

'd really consider the revolver if you have only one good hand.

Concur, and frankly I can't think of anything much better than a 4" barreled 357 SA/DA revolver loaded with decent 38 Special SD/HD ammo for one-handed house defense.

 

[Kylaen]

Stu, thanks for the manual. I'll be reading this. Sarge, are you thinking of Glaser Safety Slugs? Drail, don't worry about it, and you have my sympathies as well. JTQ, you have a point. Obviously I'm not going to be defending my home from full Kevlar wearing Chechen terrorists with full auto AKs and drum mags. Ideally, I could scare away a home invader with the presence of a gun. If I have to fire, I will hit. But in reality, I think even the threat of hot lead flying toward your chest at supersonic speeds is not something you want to happen, and hopefully enough to scare them away. In best case, I don't want to kill anybody.