AR-10A4 vs. FAL STG58 - Any advantages, etc.?

[emc]

A local dealer has an AR-10A4 with the detachable carrying handle, what he claims are match style iron sights (haven't seen the rifle yet), and bipod mounts. He's asking $1300 for it, and claims that it has only had around 2 boxes of ammo through it. While I think that he would be negotiable on the price, I'm not sure that it would make sense to get it, and here's why. From what I've read here on the forum, the AR-10 is well regarded, but I'm not sure that the AR-10A4 would offer much over the FN-FAL STG58 model that I am preparing to have a known FAL gunsmith assemble for me, based upon the factory specs for this model. While a match quality .308 would be nice, it doesn't seem that the A4 model is going to be it.

I'm looking for some comments from owners and those familiar with the two rifles and their variants. Am I overlooking something here?

Thanks,

emc

 

[Zak Smith]

I've shot an original Belgian full-auto FAL, some guns well built from excellent Steyr parts kits, and a couple franken-FALs. My AR10 experience is a JP AR10 with a 20" lightweight barrel.

The recoil is comparable.

The trigger on the AR10 can be as good as the best AR15 trigger. I like the JP single-stage trigger, but there are lots of choices. The best you can hope for in a FAL trigger is one that's been tuned up a bit by a good 'smith. Dramatic improvement in the FAL trigger just isn't going to happen.

The FAL is more awkward for mounting optics. It's this way because the stock drops for a near-perfect iron sight setup with the sight line close to the bore axis, but this means a scope mounted on a dustcover replacement-type base will be over an inch higher than where your eye will naturally end up.

The safety/selector ergonomics are better on the AR10.

I think the length-of-pull on the FAL is less than a stock AR10 with an A2 or A1-length stock.

In the limit, the FAL is probably more reliable. My experience with AR15's and AR10's at the range and in 3Gun-type competition has been that they don't really get that dirty from the gas system, and they keep running when dirty anyway.

The AR10 will probably be more accurate from the box, especially if it has a free-float tube. Regardless, the AR10 will be easier to make more accurate due to the modular AR construction. For example, to swap to the freefloat tube, you basically just loosen the barrel nut and replace the handguard. A barrel swap is just as easy.

-z

 

[JohnKSa]

The FAL is probably a bit sturdier. Magazines are going to be a lot cheaper for the FAL.

You can get a good used/parts kit FAL for about half what it will cost you to get an AR-10. New, the prices are very similar.

If you compare a good new FAL to a new AR-10, the accuracy is very similar. Don't get sucked into the myth that the AR-10 is much more accurate than the FAL--that's largely a result of people testing an all new AR-10 against a "FrankenFAL"--a rifle assembled in the back room of some importer using a used parts kit from one rifle and a new receiver of undetermined quality and origins.

DSA makes an all new FAL, and, not surprisingly the accuracy numbers for these high-quality rifle are virtually identical to the numbers posted by an AR-10.

I'd say that if you're set on buying a new gun, then it comes down to magazine prices--FAL wins.

If you don't mind going used, you should be able to have a very nice FAL built by one of the better assembly companies. A GOOD parts kit FAL will serve you well, and at about half the cost (or maybe less) than a new AR-10.

 

[Onslaught]

I'd say that if you're set on buying a new gun, then it comes down to magazine prices--FAL wins.

If I may respectfully ask... Why does it always come down to magazine prices, especially when it's the FAL?

I bought an FAL from Redlg155 that came with four 20 round mags and one 5 round mag. I immediately ordered four more 20's from CDNN for $9.99 each....

I only ever used one 20rnd mag, the one with the least finish on it, and I only used it twice. The rest of the time, I used the 5 round mag because it didn't stick out so far and was much easier to use on the bench.

I also have an AR15 (2 now) and ten 30 round mags that I've collected over the years. Of those, 3 are brand spanking new never used, and probably only 2 more used by me, the rest were bought that way. When I go to the range, I usually use the single 20 round Colt mag that I have had for years. Heck, when I took out the new AR for the first time, I used the Klintonized 10 round mag because I forgot to grab the 20 out of the other rifle!!!

Granted, I'd rather pay $10 for a magazine than $30, but since I don't need 10 mags, I'm not going to base my rifle purchase on that alone.

If given the choice between a FrankenFAL and an AR10, I'd take the AR10 IF I could afford it. If given the choice between the DSA and AR10, I'd still take the AR10, but not because there's anything wrong with the DSA.

Depending on your intended use and budget, one or the other, or both, would fit the bill nicely.

 

[BusMaster007]

I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but...

I had a Klinton Sporter that I sold to assist financing a new AR10.
I never 'loved' the L1A1.
I had fun with it.
It was a good gun.
It worked pretty well most of the time, too.
The DSA Carbine is my favorite FAL style rifle and a great choice, but the itch for the AR10 was too strong for me to resist.

I just got my first look at my new AR10 at the gun shop.
(having to wait for NICS 'delay' Gov't Math: 3 days = 5 days, you know).
I'll tell you what - I LOVE THIS RIFLE already!
It feels good. It looks good.
It's just a really nice rifle.

Yes, the mags are a tad pricey, but, that's been covered.
The mags go straight in, no rocking.

The optics platform is versatile and part of the upper receiver.
If I choose to put flip-up sights on it, they'll both be on the same piece of the gun, as opposed to rear sight on the lower and front on the upper as in the FAL.
Scoping the AR10 can be anything from simple to elaborate.
The trigger (fire control system?) can be easily replaced with good to best quality units.

It's got that 'look' to it. The 'AR' look. I had a girl like that once...

 

[4v50 Gary]

FAL

Plenty of magazines cheap.

 

[Redlg155]

I go away from the FAL.
Onslaught goes to the FAL.
Onslaught goes away from the FAL
I go back to the FAL.

Will the vicious cycle never end?

Recently I was given the choice between the DPMS AR style .308 and the FAL. I went with the DSA STG58 Carbine FAL.

Why?..Because I want a steel reciever when shooting a heavy caliber .308. Sometimes I like nothing better than throwing accuracy to the wind and blasting a 20 rd mag of 7.62 as fast as I can pull the trigger. Talk about a blast!! I know I can do this without any worry because the rifle was designed to shoot full auto as well as semi.

Now I do understand that the AR10 series has a "steel on steel" lockup system. Still...I take more comfort in the durability of the FAL.

Ahhh..and did I mention there are 30rd mags out now!

Good Shooting
Red

 

[sigman4rt]

AR10A4 vs DSA-SA58

I purchased both of these guns new, here is my opinion. Both firearms produce nearly identical accuracy, if you call DSA and get their picatinny rail top cover. I installed a JP trigger in the AR so trigger responce in the AR is much better than the DSA. Factory Armalite mags give excellent reliability. when I bought the rifle two years ago I bought all the 20 rd. mags I would need, when they were $55.00 each at my local gun shop. They are now $100.00 each from Armalite or $125.00 at the gun shop, thats an awful difference from FAL mags. I have a hodgepodge of FAL mags and they all work well. Reliability in both is very good with good ammo. Other than the price of mags, I call it a dead heat, a quality AR-10 or a quality FAL, I think you will be satisfied and well served with whichever rifle you choose. Enjoy, shoot the h#ll out of it.

 

[Zak Smith]

What kind of accuracy are you guys seeing from your "good" FALs ?

-z

 

[sigman4rt]

Accuracy

At 100 meters, with iron sights the AR, using the small aperture will group about 2-3". With the Tasco SS 10X it will group about 1.5-2". The FAL due to the larger rear aperture groups about 3-4" with irons. With a Simmons Aetec 3-9x set at 9x the FAL will group at 1-1.5". These are with a sandbag, on a bench, using Australian surplus .308 ammo. The FAL has a straight stock, not humpback, and DSA factory trigger. The only thing done to the trigger, I put JB borepaste on the trigger/sear parts and left it there for the first 100 or so rounds. I then disassembled it , cleaned off the JB and lightly oiled it, what a difference!

 

[Zak Smith]

I ask because my "best" FALs are in the range of 1.5-2" at 100 yards. The AR10 is more like a 0.7MOA rifle -- 1.5" at 200 yards.

-z

 

[sigman4rt]

Accuracy

I hear that! If I shot the AR-10 more I would probably get the groups down some. As it stands I probably put 100 rds. throug the FAL for every 20 through the AR. The AR also likes the 168 gr gold medal match lots better than the FAL does. Have you shot any of each and if so do you see a difference in group size? My FAL likes 150 gr. Aussie better than the 168 gr. GMM, the AR is just the opposite.

 

[artherd]

Everything I've heard says the AR-10A4 is the more accurate rifle.

Also;

Talk about a blast!! I know I can do this without any worry because the rifle was designed to shoot full auto as well as semi.

I belive the first rifle Armalite designed was the AR-10 (early one) and was designed as a full/semi-auto (select-fire) weapon as well. Armalite then improved the design and re-released it a few years back. I don't think you'll have any problems dumping mags as fast as you can from either gun honestly (and depending on what barrel you fit to the AR10, the FAL might not deal with heat quite as well. Both should be very reliable guns however.)

In the end, neither sucks, go with your preference from an ergonomics standpoint.

 

[emc]

As an additional point of explanation, I already have an STG58 FAL kit in near mint condition that I plan on having an experienced FAL gunsmith assemble into a full rifle using either the Imbel or the DSA receiver.

From what all of you have been saying, I do not see a real compelling reason to go with the AR-10A4 over the STG58 and spending additional money. I guess there would be a stronger reason to go with the AR-10 that the dealer is trying to sell if it were the target model. Otherwise, the A4 model does seem to offer many of the same features that the STG58 does.

FWIW,

Ed

 

[iamkris]

Frankly, I think the intended use has a lot to do with it. 3-gun events, benchrest target shooting, all around fun gun or SHTF?

STG owners are a fanatical lot (self included). I've heard lots of good things about the AR10 too. The AR platforrm TYPICALLY allows for more accuarcy, the triggers CAN be better and the STOCK sights are better (although you can upgrade for the STG).

For me, I wanted a SHTF, 3-gun, MBR. I have a DSA STG58A that I bought new direct from DSA for dealer price of $795. I have invested $25 for their match sights, $30 for the extended selector switch and $15 for a trigger spring set. For my intended use I've still saved over $400 over the AR10 and this rifle gives up nothing to the AR10.

For MY purposes, the STG is a better rifle. YMMV.

 

[JohnKSa]

Onslaught,

You may have AR-10 mags you bought for $30, but if they can be had for that today, I'm not aware of the source. $60 is probably closer to the truth. I said it came down to mag prices because I think that a new SA-58 from DSA is the equal of the AR-10 for all practical purposes. Price, accuracy, durability, reliability, etc, are all about the same. The mag prices are NOT the same so that's why I said it came down to the mag prices.

Artherd,

The AR-10 is certainly more accurate than the typical parts-kit FAL. It's a push when you compare it to an all new FAL such as the DSA SA-58 Notice that I didn't say DSA STG-58 which is a parts kit rifle

Also, the Armalite who invented the AR-10 is a completely different company from the Armalite of today. Armalite today is Eagle Arms. They simply bought the rights to the name Armalite and started turning out rifles. Sort of like if I legally changed my name to "Sam Kennison" and then started telling jokes...

Zak,

When you say your "best FALS" are you talking about the SA-58 from DSA, or are you comparing a $1300 AR-10 to a $500 parts kit FAL?

 

[Zak Smith]

JohnKSa,

When I said, "what kind of accuracy are you guys getting from your 'good' FALs", I was wondering the best people here get with any type of FAL- DSA SA-58, Belgian FN-FAL, whatever.

When I said, "my 'best' FALs are in the range of 1.5-2" at 100 yards", I was referring to the best particular specimens of FAL-type rifles that I've owned. They happen to be guns I built from near mint Steyr parts kits and Imbel "gear" receivers, with DSA parts where legally required.

-z

 

[Wryfox]

If I want confidence to go bang, FAL. If I want accuracy, AR10. My AR 10 is scoped and will do 1/2moa, my HB scoped FAL is 1.5 moa. Past 200M the AR10 wins, but that's just me.