AR-15: Best Models - need advice
- Thread starter wolfe
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I was thinking specifically of their WSSM and .30 OSM uppers. Their NM rifles have a good reputation as well.
JP makes great stuff, but they are very much race guns. Knight is very proud of their stuff. Kinda like POF and LWRC. All are well into the realm of diminishing returns.
Personally when I think top shelf ARs I think Les Baer, Noveske and Wilson. Barret makes a great rifle, but I'd spend my money on one of the previous 3 first.
SpeedAKL
Member
This
DBryant
Member
I'm curious about CMMG. They were only mentioned in passing by Gunsby Blazen. How do they stack up to companies like DD, BCM, and LMT?
Welding Rod
Member
I was not at all impressed with mine. After extensive warranty work I sold it at the earliest opportunity.
DBryant
Member
Really? What, specifically, was wrong with it? I'm curious because I'm looking for an upper to complete my Cav-15 build.
1stmarine
Member
There is an alternative to both chambers that is the wylde chamber.
It will be the best shooter, RRA has a 16" and a 20".
RRA mills the parts in the same place as Delton and Colt.
All awesome systems. Never had anything out of spec. If you want make sure you get shrouded firing pin. M16 bolt carrier and the bolt with delton are mil spec. and bolt MP tested. The RRA 2 stage trigger measures up with other expensive triggers.
There are many good others.
Things to look for from most critical to less critical in an in-pigment system.
BCR
-Shrouded firing pin (M16 carrier?)
-Mill spec Bolt MP tested
-Properly stacked gas key
Barrel
-Chamber up to spec (I have seen some ARs, even expensive ones, with the chamber out of spec and a reamer was required)
-Properly squared gas block/sights
Lower.
-up to spec trigger group (obviously if a trigger is not function correctly then this is the first thing you need to consider)
-Mil spec Buffer spring and buffer
-Function of all controls should be smooth and work flawlessly.
-A Mil spec colt magazine should drop free when empty.
A mill spec receivers they all are virtually the same with some great new ones that have a little more meat but you don't really need that. The rigidity of the system comes
from how well a specific billet fits together. I also use nylon wedges in some of mine that help stabilize both receivers as one.
What makes a real difference is to make sure that the internals are good quality and properly squared and inspected.
Is not the usual but sometimes you see out of spec systems and the reason is because the quality control is not there.
I build my own and regardless of maker if I get a complete upper I check if everything is up to spec, starting from headspace, BCR, staked key, etc...
This is paramount if you shoot a lot, like in defensive shooting training. For the occasional shooting and if occasional stoppages are not an issue then most ARs sold
are going to be ok. Ask around and see if you can try one you like.
If you like accuracy over durability on the barrel then do not get the chrome lined barrels. The difference is marginal but some people like to shoot slower and more
precisely. Barrels and other parts are cheap compared to ammunition anyway.
There are many good options out there. You might go crazy with the replies and options. Keep it simple.
Cheers.
E.
It will be the best shooter, RRA has a 16" and a 20".
RRA mills the parts in the same place as Delton and Colt.
All awesome systems. Never had anything out of spec. If you want make sure you get shrouded firing pin. M16 bolt carrier and the bolt with delton are mil spec. and bolt MP tested. The RRA 2 stage trigger measures up with other expensive triggers.
There are many good others.
Things to look for from most critical to less critical in an in-pigment system.
BCR
-Shrouded firing pin (M16 carrier?)
-Mill spec Bolt MP tested
-Properly stacked gas key
Barrel
-Chamber up to spec (I have seen some ARs, even expensive ones, with the chamber out of spec and a reamer was required)
-Properly squared gas block/sights
Lower.
-up to spec trigger group (obviously if a trigger is not function correctly then this is the first thing you need to consider)
-Mil spec Buffer spring and buffer
-Function of all controls should be smooth and work flawlessly.
-A Mil spec colt magazine should drop free when empty.
A mill spec receivers they all are virtually the same with some great new ones that have a little more meat but you don't really need that. The rigidity of the system comes
from how well a specific billet fits together. I also use nylon wedges in some of mine that help stabilize both receivers as one.
What makes a real difference is to make sure that the internals are good quality and properly squared and inspected.
Is not the usual but sometimes you see out of spec systems and the reason is because the quality control is not there.
I build my own and regardless of maker if I get a complete upper I check if everything is up to spec, starting from headspace, BCR, staked key, etc...
This is paramount if you shoot a lot, like in defensive shooting training. For the occasional shooting and if occasional stoppages are not an issue then most ARs sold
are going to be ok. Ask around and see if you can try one you like.
If you like accuracy over durability on the barrel then do not get the chrome lined barrels. The difference is marginal but some people like to shoot slower and more
precisely. Barrels and other parts are cheap compared to ammunition anyway.
There are many good options out there. You might go crazy with the replies and options. Keep it simple.
Cheers.
E.
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High pressure testing followed by magnetic particle inspection is a more comprehensive test. If the MP testing finds a crack without HP testing, there is a serious problem with manufacturing.
Gas key staking is not nearly as important as proper gas key assembly.
I've never seen a gas block that was staked. The standard front sight post is pinned to the barrel with a pair of taper pins. I've also never heard of a properly installed clamp on style coming loose.
I've also never seen a buffer referred to as "mil-spec," the receiver extension is a different story. For a really hard use rifle, a mil-spec receiver extension makes sense and it opens up more options for stock assemblies.
Gas key staking is not nearly as important as proper gas key assembly.
I've never seen a gas block that was staked. The standard front sight post is pinned to the barrel with a pair of taper pins. I've also never heard of a properly installed clamp on style coming loose.
I've also never seen a buffer referred to as "mil-spec," the receiver extension is a different story. For a really hard use rifle, a mil-spec receiver extension makes sense and it opens up more options for stock assemblies.
Mega Machine Shop
http://megamachineshop.com
I have many Colt's and Mega Gator's, I find them both of very high quality. The finish on Mega is so black, when compared to Colt the colt looks blue.
JARD triggers are very crisp and clean.
http://www.jardinc.com
+ 1 on Wylde chambers.
http://megamachineshop.com
I have many Colt's and Mega Gator's, I find them both of very high quality. The finish on Mega is so black, when compared to Colt the colt looks blue.
JARD triggers are very crisp and clean.
http://www.jardinc.com
+ 1 on Wylde chambers.
ol' scratch
Member
According to this add from Brownells who is selling the RRA upper and lower, RRA uses 7075, or at least in their NM model http://www.brownells.com/1/3/ar-15-upper-halves
I can't speak for the others, but I do love my RRA NM rifle.
1stmarine
Member
Having a better Mil-B-11595E barrel steel that has been pressure tested and MP inspected is the best but it would be one of the more costly to replace and would be the part less likely to fail.
The key points above are just a summary of the different check points of the armorer's QC checklist.
Properly alignment and stacking of the key is paramount. This is from a stag upper that obviously missed that step....
This is one stacking tool, not great but functional...
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=29337/Product/AR_15_M16_CARRIER_KEY_STAKING_TOOL
The MOACKS tool from michiguns is probably the best in my opinion...
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
Gas blocks need to be squared and properly pinned or bolted. I have seen several sold with canted sights and gas bleeding problems.
Mil spec for the M16 have been evolving since it was issued in 1966. A mill spec spring requires four critical dimensions: outside diameter, overall length, number of coils and the wire diameter in thousands of an inch. This is critical to adjust the proper timing as the M16 was not designed in the current M4 (carbine) configuration where tolerances are even smaller. This is critical to work in unison with he dwell time for proper operation sometimes requiring a proper buffer that helps compensation during reward travel.
The fact that we do not know or have never seen any of these situations adds little value to the discussion so lets stay focused to helping the requester of this thread and be open minded.
Cheers,
E.
The key points above are just a summary of the different check points of the armorer's QC checklist.
Properly alignment and stacking of the key is paramount. This is from a stag upper that obviously missed that step....
This is one stacking tool, not great but functional...
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=29337/Product/AR_15_M16_CARRIER_KEY_STAKING_TOOL
The MOACKS tool from michiguns is probably the best in my opinion...
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
Gas blocks need to be squared and properly pinned or bolted. I have seen several sold with canted sights and gas bleeding problems.
Mil spec for the M16 have been evolving since it was issued in 1966. A mill spec spring requires four critical dimensions: outside diameter, overall length, number of coils and the wire diameter in thousands of an inch. This is critical to adjust the proper timing as the M16 was not designed in the current M4 (carbine) configuration where tolerances are even smaller. This is critical to work in unison with he dwell time for proper operation sometimes requiring a proper buffer that helps compensation during reward travel.
The fact that we do not know or have never seen any of these situations adds little value to the discussion so lets stay focused to helping the requester of this thread and be open minded.
Cheers,
E.
stevereno1
Member
Spikes Tactical.
1stmarine
Member
I found a picture of one of my piston AR's. This is a RRA upper with Adams piston, American tactical lower and RRA 2 stage trigger, heavy barrel profile, Non-chromed lined and around .6-.7 moa with good loads.....
This is a new AR in 6mmx45 caliber I am working on that uses a Lothar Walter match barrel cut in rifle length with a custom design. It is not broken in yet...
This is a ballistics chart comparison I put together...
A comparative of .223 bullets LEFT vs. 6x45mm RIGHT.
That's a delton, very nice too...
This is a 20" National Match barrel with all chromed inside and SS rifle length heavy barrel profile and the Wylde chamber. This is around .35 MOA consistently...
Cheers.
E.
This is a new AR in 6mmx45 caliber I am working on that uses a Lothar Walter match barrel cut in rifle length with a custom design. It is not broken in yet...
This is a ballistics chart comparison I put together...
A comparative of .223 bullets LEFT vs. 6x45mm RIGHT.
That's a delton, very nice too...
This is a 20" National Match barrel with all chromed inside and SS rifle length heavy barrel profile and the Wylde chamber. This is around .35 MOA consistently...
Cheers.
E.
Welding Rod
Member
Check your PMs.
1stmarine
Member
If the CAV-15 is not good let folks know. I don't know about these much but I was thinking to get a lower for a specialty built and I have been told the mag well is a bit more generous in dimensions and that is what I need for a single stack VLD magazine that I am building for long range 6x45 bullets.
Anything you can share is welcome. I can open a new thread if you like.
Anything you can share is welcome. I can open a new thread if you like.
Welding Rod
Member
I have no knowledge of the Cav 15, he was asking about a CMMG upper.
1stmarine
Member
ohh. sorry. I might just put a new post to see if I can find out about those. CMMG looks like they have some decent stuff out there. Their piston system didn't catch as much as the Adams that it is hard to beat but anyway CMMG's piston enjoy a substantial advantage IMO. It will work with many handguards where the Adams will not, due to the width of the barrel nut piece.
barry960
Member
I had a FNH as my service M-16 A2, and now have a RRA upper on an PWA lower. DEA uses RRA, and the price at the time seemed more than reasonable, best priced complete upper I found. The only thing noticably lacking is select fire. Colts just always seem overpriced to me.
1stmarine
Member
The reason the colts are more expensive is because they are mil spec, good quality but the most important aspect, it is a payroll issue. They spend the most time making sure they are perfectly squared. Their check list is larger than others. Where they fail is in customer service for civilian customers, just like FN so it is a good thing they get their systems right the first time although QC has been going a tad down lately.
But, this doesn't mean much in the end as you can get other great systems from many other vendors.
There was a great article in the Guns&Ammo - Combat Tactics magazine from summer 2010.
I build and or break a part every system and check everything with gauges and tools and I can tell you never had a single issue with any of the following:
Colt
Rock Rivers
Delton
LMT
Bushmaster
SI defense
Sun Devil receivers
H&K
POF
Adams Arms
DPMS (Remington, DPMS and Bushmaster they are all the same company/group so they share a lot of things)
Many makers just put a logo with a skulk or something fancy on their receivers and make sure the systems are tight but the parts are milled in the same place as the most expensive and inexpensive ones, like Delton and Rock River that have parts come out from the same mill as colt and come out with high quality standards and affordable.
I also share my experiences with a few close friends that are armorers and gunsmiths, one currently servicing our troops systems overseas.
I am always learning something new.
Cheers,
E.
But, this doesn't mean much in the end as you can get other great systems from many other vendors.
There was a great article in the Guns&Ammo - Combat Tactics magazine from summer 2010.
I build and or break a part every system and check everything with gauges and tools and I can tell you never had a single issue with any of the following:
Colt
Rock Rivers
Delton
LMT
Bushmaster
SI defense
Sun Devil receivers
H&K
POF
Adams Arms
DPMS (Remington, DPMS and Bushmaster they are all the same company/group so they share a lot of things)
Many makers just put a logo with a skulk or something fancy on their receivers and make sure the systems are tight but the parts are milled in the same place as the most expensive and inexpensive ones, like Delton and Rock River that have parts come out from the same mill as colt and come out with high quality standards and affordable.
I also share my experiences with a few close friends that are armorers and gunsmiths, one currently servicing our troops systems overseas.
I am always learning something new.
Cheers,
E.
Bingo. The forum should default to automatically post this quote every time a similar question is asked.
The real truth of the matter is that if you don't know what you need, most any of them will fit your use. Once you've used the rifle enough to know what you need, you won't have to ask what rifle/parts to buy. It's fun to see everyone toss their opinions in as to what the best/better rifles made today are, but in the end, a guy who has to ask what is a better rifle and what isn't is a guy who probably wouldn't see a difference between the group in his real world use of the rifle. The most important issue is to buy a rifle, any of them, go out, shoot a bunch rather than worry which is the best, gain experience and skill, and then, when you find a flaw in either the design or the quality of work, swap it out for a more appropriate part.
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