AR-15 Bushmasters

[kwelz]

See my replies in red.

1. What "Improper materials?

Generally softer metal for LPKs. They used to use 4140 steel in their barrels but now claim to be using 4150.

2. Show me one failed Bushmaster bolt.

I will have to search but I have posted photos of one before from a PMC armorer over in Iraq.

3.Wrong, M4s can be ordered with M4 feedramps and receiver extensions, up to dealer to do so, standard come without.

Ordered but not standard. Lazy on BMs part.

4.I agree but do not order collapser stocks from Bushmaster.

So I should have to replace the RE and stock strait from the factory? That right there gets the gun up over the price of a BCM or DD.

5.Have you measured the height of the Bushmaster upper receiver before you made this claim or are you basing this opinion on the front sight base not having an "F" marked on the surface?

Not they actually measure different heights. BM will even tell you this. once again laziness on their part.

6.You saw one or two gas keys lightly staked on the internets and formed this opinion.
Show me a Bushmaster bolt carrier group that has actually failed at the gas key.
Staking is a "Redundancy" do you know what this means?

Actually I used to sell Bushmasters. Sometimes I would go through inventory. I saw a few that were right out of hundred. Staking is not a redundancy. It is a way to keep screws from backing out. Which they will do under the constant recoil of a weapon.

7.No staking at gas key,,,the end user can easily add staking should they wish to do so or perhaps they leave the staking off to make upgrade or replacement easier.
Show me a collapser stock that has failed because the castle nut wasn't staked.
Staking is a "Redundancy" do you know what that means?

Didn't we just cover this? When something gets shaken about the parts flex. Flexing parts leads to loosening parts. Staking is about as redundant as making sure the door on your car is shut because the seatbelt will hold you in.

8. Mark Westrom, President of Armalite Inc. has amply demonstrated the versatility of the 1-9" twist, lethality is actually INCREASED using a 1-9" twist and bullets up to 65 grains in weight.
The 1-7" twist stabilizes heavier bullets but actually DECREASES lethality using common 55-65 grain military specification ammunition.
The Swedes chose the 1-7" twist for just this reason.
Bushmaster offers 1-7" twist barrels as an option that must be specified on order. 1-9" twist is default.

And Dick Swan thinks he owns the rights to the word Throw lever and makes the best mounts in the world. Neither of those people are right. Armalite is trying to justify their own choices since they have become pretty much a non player in the AR world.

9. Price is on par because quality is on par.

Sorry but no. The quality of bushmaster is barely a step up from DPMS and no where near the quality any of the other companies I have listed. You have just spent a long time trying to justify their choices but the fact is that they cut corners and have made bad choices. They ARE capable of producing a good weapon. They CHOOSE not too.

10. Your personal experiences are not the general consensus of the firearms community as a whole.

One mans opinion is one mans opinion.


True but you are ignoring 2 facts.
1: I used to sell these piles of junk. I saw first hand the problems they could have and the excuses that BM made for them.

Of what we sold the worst was DPMS, followed by BM. Then RR. With LMT and Colt not even registering on the "problems found" list.


Secondly the opinion I have is shared by most instructors and people who actually know and understand the AR platform. Bushmaster banks on the fact that most shooters don't know better and they hope the people who buy their guns don't shoot them enough to find the shortcomings. Ask Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn what they think of Bushmaster. The reply will be less than kind. In fact I will ask Ken in a couple weeks. It will be good for laughs.

 

[Creature]

...I was under the impression that Bushmaster used 4150 steel in their barrels for years. Bushmaster uses 4140 steel for their Izzy brake.

 

[kwelz]

You are correct. I just got off the phone with them and am going back to edit now.

 

[Quentin]

Agreeing with what kwelz just said, my friend's BM M4gery from 2008 had the short front sight post (that had to be replaced because he bought a milspec height rear sight), no M4 feed ramps, gas key staking that is clearly ineffective, unstaked castle nut and when he pulled the receiver extension the loctite they used made the job almost impossible.

Most of the problems have been corrected except the feed ramps but that's a lot of annoyances that easily could have been taken care of properly at the factory.

 

[jeepguy]

i have never had a problem with my bushmaster. i don't have alot of rounds down range but i have owned it for several yrs.

 

[Onmilo]

I too have sold Bushmaster as a dealer.
never had one come back for repair.

Offering an item that SOME customers may want is not lazy on Bushmasters part, it is good business.
The vast majority of citizen shooters are going to go to the range with the cheapest .223 ammo they can find, generally 55 grain generic stuff, and shoot at 100 meters or less.
They will realize NO advantage with a faster twist rifle.
They will realize NO advantage from not having M4 feedramps.
Do you even know why M4 feedramps are incorporated on that design??

Proper torquing keeps things in place, staking is a redundancy, again, show me one, just one, documented, that came loose.

One bolt failure does not constitute a tragedy.
One bolt failure in a combat zone doesn't even warrant comment for that matter.
I was a small arms repairman in the Army.
I know of many genuine MPI Colt bolts that have failed.
Bolts fail, they do that, the percentage of Bushmaster bolts that fail are very small.

Document a lower parts kit that has failed.

Barrels and receiver components are made of the exact same material that Colt uses, why?
because they use the same forging houses to procure the uppers and lowers.
Same for barrels that are manufactured by the same companies that supply other "The Chart" manufacturers, or should i say, assemblers.

Buy a fixed stock rifle and forget the collapser stock unless the end user decides to add one later.
I actually damaged a commercial collapser stock assembly to the point it rendered the weapon unusable.
It was, in fact, a Bushmaster assembly that failed.
My opinion is to now buy and use components from trusted sources.
I don't trust the sources you offer because I have never used them.
This is one area of the weapon I will give to Colt, their collapser stock assemblies ARE battle proven and can be trusted.

Illinois State Police issues Bushmaster rifles.
First batch had to go back because of overtorqued barrels that were causing the rifles to regulate with excessive windage adjustment, they were repaired and reissued.
No issues as to sight regulation or quality issues afterwards that I am aware of.

I don't know Dick Swann, Ken Hackathorn, or Larry Vickers.
I do know Mark Westrom.
Your opinion of who is wrong or right is your opinion.
Westrom confirmed assessments of barrel twist already established, he didn't create them.
You didn't address the fact that Bushmaster DOES offer 1-7" for people who want them.
Armalite is such a non player in the AR world that they produce one of the best selling lines of AR10 type rifles.
They switched to a platform that actually sells in a market that is flooded with plenty of mediocre but touted products.
I do know that people who run shooting schools also tend to recommend items they have some sort of stake in.

The only stake I have is personal experience and mine has been good with Bushmaster.
I can't vouch for BCM or any of the others except Colt and my opinion of Colt for the most part is MEH.

The companies you show such disdain for have been in the market for thirty years.
I wonder how many of the products you speak so highly of will be around as long,,,

 

[ForumSurfer]

Buy a fixed stock rifle and forget the collapser stock unless the end user decides to add one later

But my kids are too short to get their arms around an A2.

 

[Onmilo]

But my kids are too short to get their arms around an A2.

Then by all means buy a collapser stock.
Just don't let them drop the rifle butt first onto a concrete pad.
Trust me on this!

 

[ForumSurfer]

Then by all means buy a collapser stock.
Just don't let them drop the rifle butt first onto a concrete pad.
Trust me on this!

I don't know...I slammed a magpul ctr pretty hard but first on my tailgate in desperation when trying to extract some cheap tula ammo that suffered head separation. It never failed me. I'm sure if I beat it hard enough it would fail, though.

I have a coworker who is ex army infantry. Anti-gun now and supports California's restrictive gun laws. Somehow, we manage to be friends and get along. He once asked me while we were discussing folding stocks and collapsible stocks...why did I need one since I never wore body armor like he did? I replied with "In the winter, there are several more inches on my shoulder due to clothes and my munchkins are too short for an A2 still." I knew that would get his goat because he's expressed several times that a child should be 16 before they are allowed near a weapon. The thought of my 7 year old with an EBR was too much for him to bear and an easy way to end the conversation that I no longer cared to be part of.

So that stuck with me. Civilians need collapsible stocks because they don't make a kid sized AR. Now if someone would just make a teeny little grip...

 

[kwelz]

I also know departments that issue DPMS. Beancounters suck. I feel bad for the officers.

Your post is laughable. You are trying to come off as knowledgeable but you seem to lack understanding of what is actually important in a rifle. On top of that you are claiming that the knowledge of actual industry and subject matter experts is somehow wrong and you are right.

Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn are probably the two most knowledgeable instructs in the country with more knowledge than either of us could ever hope to aspire too.

I have been in training environments. I have seen guns fail with pretty light use. Guess which brands they were.



Almost forgot about this part.

Proper torquing keeps things in place, staking is a redundancy, again, show me one, just one, documented, that came loose.

How about these:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=564055

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/25031-ar15-bolt-carrier-gas-key.html

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19690

That took about 30 seconds of searching.

And for the RE.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61693

 

[Adam123]

See my replies in red.

1. What "Improper materials?

Generally softer metal for LPKs. They used to use 4140 steel in their barrels but now claim to be using 4150.

2. Show me one failed Bushmaster bolt.

I will have to search but I have posted photos of one before from a PMC armorer over in Iraq.

3.Wrong, M4s can be ordered with M4 feedramps and receiver extensions, up to dealer to do so, standard come without.

Ordered but not standard. Lazy on BMs part.

4.I agree but do not order collapser stocks from Bushmaster.

So I should have to replace the RE and stock strait from the factory? That right there gets the gun up over the price of a BCM or DD.

5.Have you measured the height of the Bushmaster upper receiver before you made this claim or are you basing this opinion on the front sight base not having an "F" marked on the surface?

Not they actually measure different heights. BM will even tell you this. once again laziness on their part.

6.You saw one or two gas keys lightly staked on the internets and formed this opinion.
Show me a Bushmaster bolt carrier group that has actually failed at the gas key.
Staking is a "Redundancy" do you know what this means?

Actually I used to sell Bushmasters. Sometimes I would go through inventory. I saw a few that were right out of hundred. Staking is not a redundancy. It is a way to keep screws from backing out. Which they will do under the constant recoil of a weapon.

7.No staking at gas key,,,the end user can easily add staking should they wish to do so or perhaps they leave the staking off to make upgrade or replacement easier.
Show me a collapser stock that has failed because the castle nut wasn't staked.
Staking is a "Redundancy" do you know what that means?

Didn't we just cover this? When something gets shaken about the parts flex. Flexing parts leads to loosening parts. Staking is about as redundant as making sure the door on your car is shut because the seatbelt will hold you in.

8. Mark Westrom, President of Armalite Inc. has amply demonstrated the versatility of the 1-9" twist, lethality is actually INCREASED using a 1-9" twist and bullets up to 65 grains in weight.
The 1-7" twist stabilizes heavier bullets but actually DECREASES lethality using common 55-65 grain military specification ammunition.
The Swedes chose the 1-7" twist for just this reason.
Bushmaster offers 1-7" twist barrels as an option that must be specified on order. 1-9" twist is default.

And Dick Swan thinks he owns the rights to the word Throw lever and makes the best mounts in the world. Neither of those people are right. Armalite is trying to justify their own choices since they have become pretty much a non player in the AR world.

9. Price is on par because quality is on par.

Sorry but no. The quality of bushmaster is barely a step up from DPMS and no where near the quality any of the other companies I have listed. You have just spent a long time trying to justify their choices but the fact is that they cut corners and have made bad choices. They ARE capable of producing a good weapon. They CHOOSE not too.

10. Your personal experiences are not the general consensus of the firearms community as a whole.

One mans opinion is one mans opinion.


True but you are ignoring 2 facts.
1: I used to sell these piles of junk. I saw first hand the problems they could have and the excuses that BM made for them.

Of what we sold the worst was DPMS, followed by BM. Then RR. With LMT and Colt not even registering on the "problems found" list.


Secondly the opinion I have is shared by most instructors and people who actually know and understand the AR platform. Bushmaster banks on the fact that most shooters don't know better and they hope the people who buy their guns don't shoot them enough to find the shortcomings. Ask Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn what they think of Bushmaster. The reply will be less than kind. In fact I will ask Ken in a couple weeks. It will be good for laughs.

Your red font really proves your point much better than others and accentuates your disdain for Bushmaster. I can only attribute this hatred to that bully from your childhood who was named "Terrence Bushmaster". If the transference of this hatred from the bully to the gun manufacturer helps the healing, by all means, share yourself completely. I'm here if you need a hug.

 

[jad0110]

^^^ Ha ha, Kwelz linked to one of my experiences. Granted, it was a Del-Ton and not a BM, but still this show to me that redundancy isn't a bad thing in these cases. And the gas key can be removed if desired, even if it is staked. It'll just take a little more force as I understand it.

Proper torquing keeps things in place, staking is a redundancy, again, show me one, just one, documented, that came loose.

Well, guess someone should let the US Army know then.

I won't knock BM, as I have no personal experience with them. Actually, a friend owns one and likes it quite it bit, though he probably only has 750 rounds through it. But I will say that, hopefully, competition from other well priced high quality brands like Spikes and BCM will lead to increasing quality levels across the board.

 

[M&PVolk]

Bushmaster makes a good rifle for general use. They are fun to shoot and most are reliable in an average shooter's roll. Some of them are rock solid. The problems with BM to me are really only two things:

1. Inconsistency. BM's quality control seems to be all over the board, especially when comparing with "the chart". I have seen some models with great feed ramps and poor staking, others with decent staking and horrible feed ramps, etc. If you are going to buy a Bushmaster, I simply recommend checking it out well before purchasing.

2. Price point. BM is still charging the kinds of prices for their product that other manufacturers are charging for better all around quality components and finish.

I think we would all do well to remember that some AR owners don't have a combat ready AR in mind when they purchase. Some want accuracy. Some want to hunt. Some just want to plink. Not every use demands chart compliance, and in some cases, chart compliance would be unwanted. Bushmaster is a good rifle, but with so many other options available these days, I would spend my money elsewhere. Still, if you have one, stake it correctly and shoot it often.

 

[Welding Rod]

Well, guess someone should let the US Army know then.

I won't try to stick up for Bushmaster. I think the "engineering" behind their 450 BM rifle was a fiasco, so I am not thrilled with them. I have no experience with their 556 guns.

However, my guess is that the primary reason the Army spec'd gas screws to be staked was to prevent GIs from removing them and then not properly retorquing them.

 

[Onmilo]

Welding Rod you are a man with experience, knowledge and an obvious first hand knowledge of Marines!

The Army didn't specify staking, the Technical Data Package did and likely for the reason you just gave.
Redundancy.

Same reason is why the TDP calls for an Allen drive cap screw to secure the pistol grip, keeps G.I.s from removing them and having all the little bits fall out!

 

[TechBrute]

Is this the same Bushmaster that has QC that is so bad that they sold a batch of purple rifles because the parkerizing wasn't done properly?

One of the big name trainers used to keep a book of pictures of broken bolts and other parts. Vickers or Rogers, I think. IIRC, Bushmaster was well represented.

 

[wojownik]

I have three Bushmasters. Great experiences with two of them:

#1 - 20" from the late 1990s - ended replacing the upper (the BM had a number of problems (over torqued barrel, bent gas tube, incorrectly installed front sight.

#2 - 20" from late 1990s - has run flawlessly for a dozen years.

#3 - Patrolman Carbine from two years ago - has run flawless as well, highly accurate.

 

[Tommygunn]

Actually I used to sell Bushmasters. Sometimes I would go through inventory. I saw a few that were right out of hundred. Staking is not a redundancy. It is a way to keep screws from backing out. Which they will do under the constant recoil of a weapon.

Ironically, the last time I heard about a gas key coming loose and jamming a weapon, it was on an internet blog .... and it was entered by a army guy in Iraq, who had his properly staked Colt G.I. issue M4 seize because of it.
I am not trying to point out that staking is a "redundancy" (which it may, or may not, be) I'm pointing out even true "mil-spec" super duper official real military M-16 style guns can develop malfunctions.
I have a Bushie, mine was lightly staked when I bought it. It's WELL staked now though.
IMHO Bushies are fine.
I don't believe the feedramp issue is even a big deal. Were they not done so that military FA guns would work more reliably with the often used crappy mags they have?
I think I recall La Rue or one of the AR makers saying they even thought M4 feedramps might be bad because they might cant the bullet in the casing through putting excess pressure on them, thus affecting accuracy.
Now keep in mind you guys, I am only pointing out what I've heard someone else say to be true, I am not claiming I know it to be true.
Gaawd forbid I should stand in opposition to the Holyt M-4 Mil.Spec chart .....

 

[kwelz]

You are right. Anything can fail no matter what specs it is made to. And if one made to the highest specs can fail, how much more often is it going to happen with lower quality guns like a BM?

Mark Larue Doesn't use M4 feedramps. He also doesn't know how to make a proper rail. People seem to idolize him because he makes some damn fine mounts. But the mans personality is about as pleasant to deal with as a snake you just stepped on. It also doesn't mean he is the all knowing fount of knowledge when it comes to ARs.

Every top quality AR manufactuer(except larue) use M4 feedramps. Every top quality shooter and trainer I know of uses these top quality ARs. This is what I refer to as a clue.

With the exception of Mr. Vickers non of them have any endorsements that I know of. And Larry will still speak very highly of other top quality companies besides DD. Me personally I prefer Noveske. although I own a DD a smith and a couple hybrid guns.

 

[mc223]

Of interest to some.

Explanation of Desirable Features in Commercial M4 Pattern Carbines

WRITTEN BY rob_s of WWW.TACTICALYELLOWVISOR.NET

1 March 2011

Edit:

.
For a variety of reasons, the Chart in all forms has been removed from this document. What remains, therefore, is the Explanation of Features. Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. With that in mind, the fish has been removed. What remains in the interim is the fishing rod, reel, line, bait, and a map to all the best fishing holes. Educate yourself, and use them.

.
The Chart is not "dead", but it is offline until a new version can be completed. No, I don't have an ETA on that. No, I can't tell you when that will be done. No, I will not send you a copy of the Chart in the meantime. If you are from an LE or other agency and would like to make use of the Chart for departmental purchase or policy discussions, I can email you a copy but please plan on including some kind of proof of same. If I was interested in continuing to supply copies of the Chart publicly I would have left them in-tact with this document.

.
The reaction to the removal of the Chart has been interesting. If nothing else it does validate what we've been doing here for the last few years with this document and the need to update the document to make it more complete. The industry has reacted to a better-informed consumer, and this information is part of that. But the unintended consequence of that is companies treating the Chart as a checklist for their production instead of simply making a quality product. That has to stop, and for now the only way to address that is to remove it. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

.
If you would like to discuss the matter further, or learn more about the reasons behind the change, you can follow the link below

On the "Chart" page under barrels there are 2 links. One is to a mil spec of barrel steel/barrel blanks.
The other is one of my points of objection to "the chart". It is a 4 page thread on the M4 forum that discusses "Why is 4150 steel better?" There are some interesting opinions there. I did not find enough information there to say it would be an even reasonable referance for a decision as to whether a Bushmaster is good or bad.

Bill Alexander posted a metallurgical analysis in layman's term which was informative.

On the singular subject of barrel steel Bushmaster does use 4150CMV and Chrome lining.



To respond to the OP. Yeah Bushmaster is OK.

 

[Tommygunn]

Mark Larue Doesn't use M4 feedramps. He also doesn't know how to make a proper rail. People seem to idolize him because he makes some damn fine mounts. But the mans personality is about as pleasant to deal with as a snake you just stepped on. It also doesn't mean he is the all knowing fount of knowledge when it comes to ARs.

Every top quality AR manufactuer(except larue) use M4 feedramps. Every top quality shooter and trainer I know of uses these top quality ARs. This is what I refer to as a clue.

Maybe, but is it true that the original purpose was for use in M4s which might have old magazines? I have seen a lot of people using Bushie M4orgeries sans these M4 ramps and no problems were ever encountered, even with quick firing. This makes me think that they aren't enormously critical. Maybe that's wrong but given all the "hype" that has surrounded "the chart" for a long time because "Every top quality shooter and trainer I know of uses these top quality ARs," I have to think that, "clue" or not, it might be the type of clue refered to in the fiction novels as a "red herring."
Not trying to be disrespectful or contentious .... but what I've actually encountered does not indicate these ramps are "vital" for functioning.

 

[crossrhodes]

kwelz

The chart is not egotistical and is a good tool and what I would want in a military issued firearm, I guess you didn't see that part. But I will say that a good percentage of people, "who are from the Internet to save us", are egotistical and are only good at regurgitating what they have read and proclaim themselves as "experts", (I'm not calling you that). I say again...the chart is a tool and should be used so for military type firearms. A bushy with a milspec BCG is a good good rifle for civilian use. If bushmaster was as much as a risk taker as some proclaim, they would of gone out of business a long time ago. Les Baer is not milspec but they make one hell of a AR platform, DEA is real happy with their RR's and I haven't seen any news report about the streets being littered with dead DEA agents because of NON chart firearm malfunctions, but maybe the rifles are made to the chart.
I also see that the Freedom Group Corp ( owner of Rem, Bushy, DPMS etc.) will be giving BCM, LMT and the others some competition in the AR platform area.
I have a Colt, Bushy,BCM upper w/ bushy lower and a few DPMS's in 7.62 . I guess I'm a one in a million type guy because they ALL have ran fine, and very few have less then 10,000 rounds. But then again....I'm from the Internet and here to save you....LOL

 

[Onmilo]

but what I have encountered does not indicate these ramps are "vital" for functioning.

Do you shoot 75-80 gain bulleted loads as a rule and not an exception?
Do you shoot a weapon capable of burst or full auto function?

If the answer to either of these questions is No you will see no benefit to having M4 feedramps on the weapon.

 

[kwelz]

Considering 75 grain loads are some of the best on the market right now for self defense I would say that M4 feedramps would be pretty important. But hey. Good enough is just fine right?

 

[Onmilo]

You don't give up do you?
Just for the record, I own two rifles with 1-7" & M4 ramps, a 20" and a 14.5" to 16" legal length M4 clone.
One 20" 1-7" no ramps
One 1-9 20" no ramps
One 24" 1-9" no ramps
One 24" 1-10" no ramps.
Why limit yourself to but one option with so versatile a platform?