AR 15 or AK 47?

[CA2005]

AK all the way. Reliable and accuate enough to do the job. The AR cannot withstand what the AK can when it comes to fouling and use.

 

[CA2005]

Everyone is right. The AK is a VERY inaccurate, as this particular gentleman can demonstrate. 0.582" center to center at 100 yards. Might as well stick with a shot-gun with groupings like that!
(http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11218)
and

(http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=72144)

(note: That is NOT me!)

This was done with hand-loaded ammunition tuned to that particular gun. Expect 2-3" with factory stock ammo. As of late, some hand-loaders have had excellent luck with tuning loads to get as good accuracy out of the Saiga platform as can be expected out of an AR-15 with equally well-tuned loads.

The myth of the inaccurate AK is just that, a myth. If your properly load the weapon, and shoot it with an intent and determination to get the utmost accuracy, the Saiga WILL deliver. If you expect the gun to shoot poorly, and shoot it poorly, its no surprise that it will throw up a pattern.

Plus, Saiga's are new guns, with fresh new barrels and built to the same quality standards as Russian main-line AK's are built, with the same QC specification. A WASR or a surplus kit-build might be able to do as well in the accuracy department, but you have to consider that with a WASR, Yugo, AMD-65, etc. you are buying a gun made out of used parts that may have been used and abused in ways previously unknown to man, or out of parts that, while safe to use, failed QC. Sort of the expectation that a car with 200,000+ miles or a lemon will run every bit as well as a new fresh off the assembly line vehicle.

Just some food for thought!

Very impressive.

 

[Arcticfox]

I'm interested in getting a rifle, mostly for learning how to use one, and target shooting at the range

If it's for learning, and target shooting, why not AR?

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

Most people who say the AK is not an accurate rifle either (a) don't own one, or (b) need more marksmanship practice.

I would add option C: they've handled one that has been shot to death. I've seen some surplus AKs that scattered shots around something awful.

KR

 

[philpost]

If it's for learning, and target shooting, why not AR?

For the reasons I mentioned: ergonomics, reliability in less than optimal conditions, value, and what real estate agents refer to as "curb appeal"; ie. I just dig it. I'm sure I'll check out an AR 15 at some point, but you have to start somewhere.

 

[oldfool]

OP says..."I'm interested in getting a rifle, mostly for learning how to use one, and target shooting at the range (I have handguns and a shotgun, and practice regularly)."


in 80 posts, only ONE guy suggests that there any other choices but an AR or an AK

yes, I know OP mentioned those two
he also implied he did not own any rifle, apparently never has, and just maybe never even shot one before

maybe OP doesn't know anything else exists ?
(could happen, "all things considered")

PS
for as much as we complain about "fuddites", me included....

 

[Zerodefect]

haha! 3 shot groups don't count. Try a 10 round group and post that pic......at 200yds.

Still thats alot better than your average AK.

 

[philpost]

OP says..."I'm interested in getting a rifle, mostly for learning how to use one, and target shooting at the range (I have handguns and a shotgun, and practice regularly)."


in 80 posts, only ONE guy suggests that there any other choices but an AR or an AK

yes, I know OP mentioned those two
he also implied he did not own any rifle, apparently never has, and just maybe never even shot one before

maybe OP doesn't know anything else exists ?
(could happen, "all things considered")

PS
for as much as we complain about "fuddites", me included....

OP does know other things exist, as OP reads quite a bit, goes to various shops and shows, and regularly goes to the range, so I observe what others are shooting as well. I wanted a semi-automatic version of a combat rifle to start with. Why? Just because I think they're cool, and both have lots of users and support. I'm neither a survivalist nor actively preparing for the zombie apocolypse, but lets face it, there are some situtions where either an AK or an AR will help you out more than a bolt action .22 (my signature notwithstanding). I also am not preparing to go hunting in the near future - I may come fall, and of course if I did, I would select from a whole other range of appropriate rifles and calibers.

 

[Tirod]

The Op titled the thread "AR15 or AK47?"

It's bad form to throw in anything else when the OP restricted his question to "one or the other." Lots of posters come back in saying "Why can't you read?" And the reasons given can be accomplished with either.

For once the responders were polite and stayed on topic.

 

[privateidaho]

I have both the AK and AR platforms - I started with the AR. I guess I just had to have the American black rifle first (after all I am a red blooded American!!).

Fun Factor: - they are both fun as heck to shoot. Empty a 30 rd mag. in either at your favorite target, and you will giggle like a little girl. The AR will not buck as much as the AK (my AK is chambered for 7.62x39 and my AR is 5.56) during a rapid fire session, but the bucking AK just adds to the fun factor for me.

Accuracy: - I shoot open sites only on my AK and AR's - so most of the time I am shooting at targets, at the most, a hundred yards away cause my eyes suck. BUT I still refuse to put optics on either platform, and I don't know why . I feel confident with putting the ammo on the target so long as I can see the target with either AK or AR, and most of the time the confidence is justified with accurate hits. Deep in my heart though I know that the AR is a more accurate and refined weapon. In addition the AR is definitely a more capable platform for optics.

Ease of use and "learning a semi-auto rifle platform" - Both the AK and AR are about the same as far as general functionality. You load a mag., insert it, charge the bolt/cock the hammer, take off the safety, aim and pull the trigger. The controls on the AK are located in different spots vs. the AR, and are less "refined" on the AK, but in the end they provide the same functions. Most AK's will not have the "last round fired bolt stays open" functionality either.

AR Gas Piston - I have both gas piston and gas impingement AR's and I really don't notice any difference between the two when I am shooting. I do notice a big difference when I am done shooting and it comes to cleaning. The gas piston upper receiver is a lot less dirty and easier to clean.

In the end - these are just my humble opinions. If I had to choose between the 2 in some kind of hypothetical situation - I am going to be dropped in the middle of a hostile jungle and I can take only one rifle - either the AR or the AK - I would choose the AK cause I know that AK will not fail me no matter how dirty it gets - its just way to loose. I am not saying the AR would fail me - but I know the AK can take more punishment and dirt in the end.

If money is not an object - get both!!!!!!

 

[philpost]

Yesterday I was at the range twice, once on my lunch hour, then after work with my wife, letting her try out the Arsenal for the first time. Again, too much fun to shoot, and certainly accurate at the distance I was shooting. Someone I was introduced to let me try out his tricked out S&W AR-15, and that was also a lot of fun, although his holographic sights made me think I was on a mission to destroy the Death Star

 

[Sport45]

I'm interested in getting a rifle, mostly for learning how to use one, and target shooting at the range

Definately get the AK. There's no such thing as just getting one AR. They're like Lay's Potato Chips. If you get the AK you'll shoot it a couple of times, stick it in your closet and never want to shoot again. You'll save a ton of money that way.

The above statement was somewhat in jest. I've never fired an AK so really can't bad-mouth them. I did have a AR for a while, but now I have two.

 

[-v-]

The vast majority of AK & Ak type rifles will be fed com. block surplus from a tin, it may be a Romainian, Bulgarian, Egyptian, Russian, U.S. or Chinese rifle (Or parts of all of the above). And WILL GET anywhere from 2-6+ Inch patterns at 100 yards. I dont think it is fair to say that ^ (THAT) is normal, or possible with "Most" ak pattern rifles or ammunition.

The same could be said of shooting a .308 battle rifle with Radway or South African 7.62 NATO ball (loaded to ~4 MoA Accuracy), or shooting a Ar-15 with run of the mill military surplus ammo. In that case, any gun that can shoot sub-MoA groups with match-grade ammo, will also be throwing 2-6+ inch patterns at 100 yards. Point of the above was to demonstrate that mechanically the AK is capbale of a lot more accuracy then most people expect out of the platform. Whether or not you have ammunition that can meet the gun's standard of accuracy is another point.

In the same regard, its also true to say you can't expect ^ that with most 5.56x45 or 7.62x51 with "Most" M16 pattern or 7.62x51 caliber weapons either.

 

[M1key]

Saiga 308 with Aussie ball:

 

[M1key]

Saiga 308 with 16inch barrel

 

[481]

Well, this afternoon I pulled the trigger (figuratively) on an Arsenal RSL-20. I did a lot of video viewing (yes, all 5 parts of Nuttin Fancy AR vs. AK ), review reading, different gun shop owner asking, and of course, reading the really helpful feedback I got from you folks. I made my desicion based on a few factors:
1) Ergonomics - the AK just felt better and more substantial TO ME. Your feelings may differ. I also play bass, and prefer 50 year-old designs that some people may find thick, clunky, and lack some refinement. That's just me.
2) Usage - probably going to be mostly plinking at 50 yards or less at first. Long distance accuracy won't make a difference at those distances.
3) Resiliance and Reliability- as my old firearm safety instructor put it "if you have to grab one to take out to the Everglades, go with the AK". Since I don't live far from the Everglades, this could be a factor.
4) Price vs. Quality - for the same amount of $, I would have gotten a bottom of the line AR; from what I gather, this is a high-quality AK.
That said, I also know what I've given up - a sophisticated platform that offers many more customization options, as well as something that would help me develop more advanced rifle skills. For now, that's O.K. As many of you have pointed out, you have both, and I wouldn't be surprised if I end up with both as well (+ a .308).
Tommorow, I'm planning on taking it to the range, and truely test it with some firing time. I'll let you know how it goes.

phil,

Good on you. Congrats on the new Arsenal.

I have seven of them (SAM7Rs, SASM7s) and all are more than acceptably accurate (~4" @ 100m) with "cheap" steel (usu. "Golden Tiger") cased ammo.

Where they really shine is when I feed them the "good stuff" (usually Winchester, Federal, Remington and Fiocchi brass cased ammo) and let 'em run @ 100 m. With preferred ammo (Winchester Q3174, in this case), I can hold down sub-2" groups all day long @ 100m and give a hostile threat all the way out to 300m (or a bit more ) something to think about.

I have no illusions of making 800-1,000 yard headshots with either rifle and since I see neither system (AK47 or AR15) as more than a 400m rifle (and that's pushin' it) once it has been properly "zeroed", I see the bigger, more authoritative round (in terms of terminal/barrier penetration and performance) as being preferable to the smaller.

Enjoy that new AK!

 

[philpost]

481, thanks for the feedback and the ammo advice. So far, I've only used Wolf 124gr., because the range near me makes you buy their ammo, and that's what they have in 7.62. I did get a box of Remington 123 gr. to use at an outdoor range that's BYOA, but maybe I'll get some of the Winchester to try out on the same trip.

 

[RebelRabbi]

If you want a reliable CQB weapon that hits hard get an AK.

 

[481]

481, thanks for the feedback and the ammo advice. So far, I've only used Wolf 124gr., because the range near me makes you buy their ammo, and that's what they have in 7.62. I did get a box of Remington 123 gr. to use at an outdoor range that's BYOA, but maybe I'll get some of the Winchester to try out on the same trip.

You are welcome, phil.

Don't restrict yourself to just one brand of the domestic stuff either. Give Federal, Fiocchi and PMC a try, too, if you can lay hands on it. The Winchester stuff is good, but your Arsenal might like the taste of something else.

 

[philpost]

Oh, I'll mix it up. And just today, a new range opened up in the neighborhood that lets you bring your own ammo, so I can shoot what I want.

 

[philpost]

If you want a reliable CQB weapon that hits hard get an AK.

Done and done.

 

[John H.]

M1 Garand...

 

[philpost]

M1 Garand...

My wife loves vintage guns. Maybe something for Mothers Day?

 

[Sport45]

Yesterday I was at the range twice, once on my lunch hour, then after work with my wife, letting her try out the Arsenal for the first time.

Color me green with envy...