AR-15 ... or should I buy something else???

[Marko Kloos]

Hey, no argument from me. I have an AR-15, but if I was on a tighter budget I'd have no problem with an AK-47 clone. They're a lot cheaper than AR-15s, mags are even cheaper than AR mags, and ammo is dirt cheap. Both rifles have their own drawbacks and benefits, but I would feel well-armed with either one.

The AK is cheaper, more robust, more tolerant to abuse, and shoots a bigger bullet. On the downside, it has inferior sights and doesn't quite match the accuracy of a decent AR. Also, loaded mags for an AK are a lot heavier than those for an AR.

The AR is more modular, has less recoil, is more accurate than the AK, and has far better sights and optics mount options. The ammo is much lighter, and the ergonomics of the AR are superior to those of the AK. On the other paw, the AR is more difficult to clean than the AK, it shoots a smaller bullet, and the chamber area is a bear to clean well thanks to the locking lug arrangement. The AR also has more itty-bitty parts, and it's less sturdy than the AK.

That said, either rifle type will serve you well. I prefer the AR over the AK these days, but an AK will do all the things you ask of it, for half the price of a base-line AR.

 

[444]

 

[Forseti]

If money allows, get both...

But more interesting would be comments from people who HAVE both. Which weapon gets more wear? Which one do they enjoy shooting more?

Tends to be the AR. Its also a more "comfortable" shooter. (I think this will make a good forum question...I think I will ask it)

Buy what you will shoot more of...

 

[AK103K]

I have both, actually, I have more than a couple of both. I shoot my AK's more, they are just more fun for me. The big fight over which is better is really just a matter of personal preference more than anything. I think the AR people who constantly bad mouth the AK have never really taken the time to learn or shoot one. I think the AK people who bitch about the AR are just tired of hearing it. Either way, there is a lot of "not quite right" info passed on about both without personal knowledge or use by the "informed" person. In a pinch, I'd be happy to have either, they both work. If you compare them side by side in a realistic comparison, ie. stock guns of equal quality +/-, iron sights, no gizmos, they are pretty close. My Bushmaster AR and my wasr10 shoot about the same at 100 yards from prone.(I chose these two as they are really about equal of the guns I have, my Krebs 14" AK103K will actually out shoot my Bushmaster at 100 yards and my Armalite M15A4 is no comparision to any of them in the shooting department)) The difference isnt worth worrying about and you can consistantly make head shots on an ipsc target with both. Yes, the AR would probably be more accurate farther out, but both would have no trouble hitting a man sized target at 200 yards. Ergonomics, again, is more a matter of preference and training. The AK isnt as bad as people will have you believe. Its actually a better snap shooter and close range CQB type gun in my opinion(for what ever thats worth ). It shoulders quicker and points more naturally for me. The sights are more suited for it to. Safety and mag changes are not an issue, if you take the time to learn how they work. As for quality, the AK is probably a little more robust, it definintly is in the mag and accessory department. There is no comparasion with the mags, the AK's is built like a tank. Yes, they weigh more, but then again, my Bushmaster weighs more than my wasr10, so whats the difference. I've never had any kind of trouble with ANY AK mag I have(and I've got a lot), I cant say that about the AR's mags I have. They are definitly flimsier and some can be picky about working right.
All in all, it basicly boils down to what YOU want and are most comfortable with. If you take the time to learn them, and in reality, you really should learn how to work them both, no matter which one you have, they wont let you down.








THE AK IS REALLY BETTER THOUGH!

 

[Rick R]

AK's are fine rifles, reasonably accurate, reliable but I don't like them personally for asthetic reasons (I don't like Glocks either).
AR's are fun to "tinker" with, if you have the right tools and the mechanical abillity to install a water heater in a home, you too can build an AR-15 from parts.

If you're going for a "Post Ban" gun, I like the following:

lightweight 20" barrel - cuts down on blast, adds velocity

free float handguard - aids accuracy and cooling

flat top upper - you will need a "riser" and/or high rings to get the scope high enough to get a good cheek weld, you can leave the front sight in place and you won't see it through a properly mounted scope. Ideally the scope should be centered at the same height as the rear peep on a carry handle gun.

one or two stage adjustable trigger, but you can do good work with the stock trigger too.

I like the A1 style butt stock, it's shorter than the A2 and quicker to the shoulder, but YMMV.

Bushmaster is selling a gun they call the Varminter and a buddy recently bought one, it's a very nice rig right out of the box. But expect to pay about a $Grand.

I've had good luck with DPMS parts and poor luck with Oly, Bushamster has the occasional fauxpas but they seem to be good at fixing any problems that occur and when they get it right , it's very right. Colt makes good guns, when they decide they're actually in the gun business. A co-worker bought a Rock River Match rifle and is smoking the old farts at High Power matches.

Don't go to AR15.COM unless you want to get addicted to the little rifle. I was quite satisfied with my preban 20" A2, started hanging out at AR15.COM and now I have three AR's and a partial gun in the closet that seems to be growing parts...

good luck

Rick

 

[Onslaught]

One of my shooting buddies has an AK variant. Some sort of "special limited edition" SSR9 thing that he payed about as much for as I did for my Bushmaster!!!

At any rate, I let him shoot my AR, and immediately, he began talking about selling his Mini-14 to buy one.... He did.

He has a really nice Rock River AR with a 20" free floated barrel with muzzle brake, flat top front and rear, and a match trigger.

Just yesterday he caught me in the break room and said "ya know, I was thinking about selling my AK and buying another AR... this time, a short one like you've got."

As far as the post-ban "fake flash supressors", I agree that the muzzlebrake is not desireable. There's no recoil to dampen anyway, so why bother just for appearance sake. Another friend of mine just bought a Rock River M4gery, and it has a real flash supressor pressed onto a 16" barrel, until the barrel is even with the end of the FS. This makes the FS completely non-functional, and it still looks "cool" if that's important to you. And as a bonus, his M4gery has a 16" barrel, but is actually shorter than my pre-ban with a 14.5" barrel and 2" permanently attached Phantom flash supressor.

 

[Logistar]

All these posts give me PLENTY to think about! One of the reasons I leaned toward the .223 (other than it is cheap to shoot) is that .223 ammo is EASY to find locally.

Anyway, I'd like to say thanks to ALL of you again and I will certainly keep monitoring this and all other related threads very closely! Hopefully, I will make a rifle purchase in a couple of weeks!

Logistar

 

[444]

"I agree that the muzzlebrake is not desireable."

I totally disagree with this. I made a similar post over at AR15.com. It seems that this whole pre-ban thing is the forbidden fruit. Once someone says we can't have it, we want it all the more whether we have a use for it or not. Don't get me wrong, I own a couple pre-ban rifles and having the military like stuff is fun. But I don't really have a use for a bayonet lug or a flash hider. The one thing I wish I could have on more of my ARs is a colapsable stock, but I digress. The thing about the flash hider is that I am a civilian. There is almost 0% chance of me ever being in "combat". I may fire the rifle a few times at night just for the heck of it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to have a feature like this that I might use a fraction of 1% of the time. A muzzle brake however is another story. The point of the muzzle brake on a 5.56 rifle isn't because of the tremendous bone crushing recoil. It is to allow faster follow up shots because of the reduced muzzle rise. And this is something that I can use all the time. When doing quick double taps on a target, you want as little muzzle flip as you can get. When you are firing at multiple targets in rapid succession, having a quicker recovery time (getting the sights back on target) is always desireable.
I was shooting ARs a couple days ago with one of my friends. We had three silhouette targets set up at 10 yards. We were firing various drills on the targets while using a shot timer. We started each drill with the rifle hanging on a tac sling and our hands in the surrender position. Sometimes we were facing the targets, sometimes we started with out backs to the targets. Sometimes we engaged one target, sometimes to or all three. We were firing two shots to the body and one to the head. My buddy was using a pre-ban CAR and I was using a post ban Bushmaster with a Wilson Combat muzzle brake. My times were always at least half of his, and sometimes a quarter of his. He tried the same drills with my rifle and decided that he was going to unscrew his flash hider and put a muzzle brake on the rifle. His words were that the brake made a HUGE difference in quick/accurate shooting. I tried his rifle along with a 16" upper I had with a bare barrel and totally agreed with him.
Let's look at a few applications of muzzle brakes/compensators and see if you don't agree. I have read that some varmint hunters shooting centerfire .22s muzzle brake their rifles. Now they are using heavy barrels and heavy rifles in general. Punishing recoil isn't the point; they want to see their bullet impact the target through their scope. Obviously if they were using a semi-auto this would also allow an almost instant follow up shot if needed. IPSC shooters have long used compensated handguns to allow maximum speed/accuracy on the target. This sport is always a delicate balance between speed and accuracy. They can increase both by using a compensator. For those of you that have ever fired a full-auto weapon, you know that there is significant muzzle rise. Depending on the caliber, it might be everything you can do to keep the bullets on target during an extended burst. Now imagine cutting that muzzle rise significantly. Do you think you would score more hits ?

 

[Smokey Joe]

Satisfying YOUR needs

Here is what I want to do with it:

1. Plink/have fun.
2. OCCASIONALLY use it for a varmit.
3. Available for SHTF scenerio.

All due respect to the AR crowd, who have their plethora of minutiae about which to argue/discuss/wrangle, but unless you want to spend bo-coo bucks, don't get one. They seem to be an addiction unto themselves, for their owners.

Getting an AK is more to your point, for reasons well pointed out in previous posts.

However, IMHO, the ultimate SHTF gun is the SKS. Large mags available. Light enough recoil for target re-aquisition. And most important, ultra-reliable. The gun was designed to function, every time, under the worst imaginable conditions, while being maintained by an illiterate peasant with a bent piece of wire. It's not the most accurate rifle in the armoryÑa good group with an SKS is 3" at 100yd. But that'll do for discouraging multiple BG's. It'd do for biggish varmits, too, although prairie dogs are quite beyond its capability, except by luck.

The SKS makes an XLNT plinking rifle. It is magnificent for killing tin cans, clods of dirt, and various pieces of firewood. There is lots of cheap ammo available for it, although some is of a quality to be an insult to any decent firearm. The SKS is also good for game up to deer size, if you keep within its "accurate" range. With its short stock, it makes a great first deer rifle for youngsters.

'Scope sights are available, as are replacement stocks. An average or taller American just about HAS to re-stock the SKS. There are also many other retro attachments available, of greater or lesser utility.

Right now there are lots of 'em available, so they're cheap (<$200). Try to buy an AR or an AK for that kind of $$! The least desirable ones are the Chinese, who tended to cut corners in the manufacturing process. Best ones are of European origin, but the Russian ones have become collectors' items already, and the price of those has gone out of sight. It will happen to all of 'em some dayÑit seems to happen to any sporting equipment once the supply dries up, so when modifying them I always advise saving every little spring and screw. Your grandchildren will thank you.

Best source of SKS's is The Gun List or the Shotgun News or the Internet. Best source of retro parts, and advice, is DC Engineering, 8633 Southfield Freeway, Detroit, MI 48228. Website <www.rifletech.com> Email <[email protected]> Phone 1(800)886-7623. Knowlegeable, helpful, fair, honest, square-dealingÑWhat more can I say?

Anyhow, I think you need an SKS. Won't cost you an arm and a leg, fun to shoot, reliable, you won't be sorry.

 

[Onslaught]

The point of the muzzle brake on a 5.56 rifle isn't because of the tremendous bone crushing recoil. It is to allow faster follow up shots because of the reduced muzzle rise.

OK, amendment to statement...

If faster followup shots outweigh the extra noise, then by all means, get a muzzle brake.

I hate the one on my buddy's AR, because it's more punishing on me than it is him, since I'm the one standing next to him.

His 20" AR with muzzlebrake has a PERCEIVED noise/blast level greater than that of my 14.5" barrel.

But if the extra noise from an already loud rifle isn't a factor (especially if you're shooting alone, since most of the punishment is on the bystanders) then you may want the muzzlebrake after all.

 

[444]

I notice that my Wilson Combat brake is significantly louder than an unbraked upper. This doesn't particularly bother me however. I can always use both ear plugs and muffs. As you say, I usually shoot alone or with one or two other guys out in the wide open desert. I can see where shooting this stuff on an indoor range or on a busy firing line might be objectionable to some people. However, there are certainly other guns that are louder without a brake and that wouldn't stop me from owning one of them.
A friend of mine has a .300 Win Mag with a muzzle brake. When you are standing behind him it produces a pretty startling shock wave. I don't think I would put one on a hunting rifle like he did. You don't shoot it all that much to begin with, at least I dont' shoot my hunting rifles all that much. Before the season I fire maybe 100 rounds to make sure of my zero and get myself tuned up. But it is so freaken loud that even firing one or two shots in a hunting situation without ear plugs would be hazardous. But the noise and shock wave this thing puts out is of many times greater magnitude than a braked AR15.

 

[Logistar]

My dealer is suggesting an Armalite 15A2B (20in). It feels good. Anyone have any comments about this particular model?

(Still looking into AK-47, SKS....)

Logistar

(It appears that this "15A2B" is an "Eagle Arms" Rifle and does not have the chrome barrel or the Lifetime Warranty. Also, I believe that the handle is not removeable.)

 

[cwalker3]

I have AR's (Bushmaster and Rock River), AK's (SAR 1 & 2) and SKS' (Romanian and Yugo 59/66). Ammo for all is relatively inexpensive. The AR's are accurate and reliable, but a pain to clean. (Too many small parts). The AK's are fairly accurate, very reliable and easy to clean. The SKS's though are my favorite. Cheap ammo. easy to clean. Reliable. And my Yugo is every bit as accurate (at 100 yards) as either of my AR's. Plus you can get an excellent-unissued one for under $200. For the uses that you stated, I would go with the Yugo SKS.