AR 15 Shell Scorings

[poetdante]

I have an AR 15 that was purchased in late December and has only seen a few hundred rounds through it. My concern is about scoring on live rounds that I eject when checking to see that things cycle correctly. I don't see them on fired casings but then again those are quite dirty and any markings could be obscured. I DO see this happening with unfired rounds. I tried to see if this would happen with A-Zoom Aluminum snap-caps and here are the results (brand new, out of the box snap-cap was used)

First four pictures are of the same snap-cap
Notice not just the huge scratch on the side but also the tip of the "bullet" and the markings on the tail.

Basically, is this normal? The big-box store I got this from is quite helpful but it's most likely they will send this rifle off and give me a new one as a way to fix the issue, IF there is one (I brought it to them before for having troubles chambering the first round and when they tried this they showed no problems and said they could not see what markings on ejeceted rounds I was talking about. This time I can show them markings on the same type of snap-caps they used and have pictures but I would rather not have to take my rifle all the way there if this is a normal thing). Any help would be appreciated.

 

[poetdante]

Here is a live round I cycled and you can barely see a scratch on the bullet tip.

I tried a second, brand new snap cap and you can see slight scoring along the side and similar problems with the tail.

 

[primalmu]

Semi-auto actions are relatively violent. There's nothing to be concerned about. You'll also find that these guns will deform soft points pretty drastically.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ar+...j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8

 

[poetdante]

I tried taking some pictures of the feed ramp and bolt. I see copper deposits (I think that's what they are) on the bolt and the the ramp. I think this is about as clear a picture as I can make about my possible issue. Any info and advice would be appreciated as I REALLY don't want to have to deal with shipping my only rifle back or even going across town to the store where I got the rifle from for them to look at it (whole issue where I have to be escorted through the entire store with them parading my rifle above their heads through masses of customers, not to mention the WAITING for a manager to come do it)

 

[poetdante]

Thanks for the link. I did do a search for the issue and the results were not exactly what I was searching for and there were different opinions on the matter (that and I found none where I could acccess pictures of the other peoples' problem). Some say it's normal and others say it's a defect. Windham makes great rifles I hear and I wanted to post a clear description of my concern

 

[HammsBeer]

The wear on the bullet tip is where it rides up the feed ramp into the chamber. The scratches are likely where the brass is rubbing on the edges of the chamber locking lugs. Autoloaders can be rough on brass; scratches, case mouth and body dents, etc...

If it feeds, fires, and extracts ok then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[poetdante]

Well see after the initial feed it feeds fine. Sometimes I really have to sling shot the pull to get the first round in and sometimes normal effort is ok. It's 50/50 that a case get's stuck as it's feeding up the ramp unless I pull back as far as I can, hold it, then release the handle. I never really noticed it before because at the range I keep the charge handle back and hit the release to load the first round which never resulted in a problem. Again, first time buyer and new to the firearms world

 

[taliv]

Chamber a round and then slowly pull the charging handle to the rear. As soon as you can see the brass in the chamber stick your finger in there and push on it to keep it straight.

The marks you are seeing are not from going into the chamber. They are from the ejector pushing it into the lugs

 

[poetdante]

What do I do after keeping the casing straight?

I figure the issue is during ejection based on other posts in other forums and threads. Problem is, some say it's normal, others say it's a headspacing issue, and still others say it's an extractor issue.

Also which marks are you referring to? The tail, body of casing, or the bullet marking itself?

My main concern is SHOULD I be concerned about this or is this something that only happens when you eject an unfired round? Will the scratches affect me reloading them (when I start getting into that next year anyway)?

 

[taliv]

Once it's clear of the lugs let it come out of the action so you can examine it

The point is that occasionally happens when you eject live rounds. It should not happen when rounds are going in or out of the gun during normal firing.

As a general rule I strongly recommend you DO NOT sit around your house loading and unloading an ar15.

 

[poetdante]

Taliv

Desperate times have lead me to try a round at home. The only range that would let me fire an AR to test this out at is half an hour away and $25 minimum (hour). The nearest outdoor range is close to an hour away and it's 20F here now. I don't WANT to handle live ammo in a rifle at my apartment (even if it is first floor and pointed into a concrete floor) but I also don't want to find out there is a problem months down the road when it will be harder to get the store to cooperate in helping me resolve the issue (ie shipping it back, replacing, etc). Hence I used snap-caps and tried one live round. What lead me to this whole thing was noticing the scorings when I fired outdoors a few weeks ago.

Would loading/unloading aluminum snap-caps work as well as brass? Since I have already noted where the first marks were I can compare against the method you described?

 

[Warp]

Taliv

Desperate times have lead me to try a round at home. The only range that would let me fire an AR to test this out at is half an hour away and $25 minimum (hour). The nearest outdoor range is close to an hour away and it's 20F here now. I don't WANT to handle live ammo in a rifle at my apartment (even if it is first floor and pointed into a concrete floor) but I also don't want to find out there is a problem months down the road when it will be harder to get the store to cooperate in helping me resolve the issue (ie shipping it back, replacing, etc). Hence I used snap-caps and tried one live round. What lead me to this whole thing was noticing the scorings when I fired outdoors a few weeks ago.

Would loading/unloading aluminum snap-caps work as well as brass? Since I have already noted where the first marks were I can compare against the method you described?

Why are you so hesitant to chamber a round at home?

Follow the 4 rules and pay attention.

What do you think all of the people who keep loaded firearms at home for defensive purposes do?

Finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard the entire time, keep the safety on, maintain the muzzle in a safe direction...why such a big deal?

 

[hartcreek]

It looks to me that you need a chamber brush or bore snake. You have some crap in the chamber and it is pulling just a bit.

 

[poetdante]

Good point. Don't get me wrong I DO cycle live ammo when I have no option, but it's a 100 year old apartment building in a downtown area. If I can use dud I do. And I do follow what you recommend, pointed downward, safety on, finger away from trigger. Accidental discharge entails as much concern for shooting someone as it does for cops showing up because my hipster neighbors reported gunfire.

It seems like the consensus here is that the markings are normal (at least on snap caps) until the rifle has some more rounds through it? (ie I have only about 500 through it so I should see if it stops after 1000?)


hartcreek:
I haven't tried a chamber brush but did use a nylon bristle brush to clean around the area. I will have to try an actual chamber brush.

oh and speaking of cleaning I find it IMPOSSIBLE to get a .22 brush with a cleaning rod pushed through the barrel when going breach to muzzle. But per the manufacturer's manual if I pull it through it's much easier (though still needing some firm effort). I know bore snakes are handy but what kind of cleaning do they need? Can I just keep them in my range bag or what?

 

[chicharrones]

Another thing you can do if worried about the hammer coming down on a live round is to remove the firing pin. Much easier to do on an AR than many other guns out there.

BTW, my AR makes the same marks on live ammo. It has not impaired firing and function at all, only a bad mag I have has caused a feed problem. Accuracy has not been affected as best as I can tell either. Things will smooth out once the rifle has gone through the violence of firing and cycling a couple hundred times. Manually cycling the action on a non-broken-in gun is almost always a bit rough.

EDIT: Also to note that aluminum Azoom dummy cartridges show nicks and scratches real easy. No matter the chambering or the gun.

 

[poetdante]

Excellent idea about the firing pin!

 

[Caliper_Mi]

I'd be very careful cycling an AR with the firing pin out. The firing pin holds the cam pin in and at the proper orientation. If the cam pin rotates in the bolt so it is no longer square, I can see it easily jamming up in the slot along the top of the upper receiver and causing damage.

Your ammo appears to be military style M855 and as such should have the hard military primers. They will receive a slight tap by the firing pin as they are chambered but won't go off. Don't try this with ultra-soft match/benchrest primers as free floating firing pins have been known to set those off on chambering.

 

[chicharrones]

I'd be very careful cycling an AR with the firing pin out. The firing pin holds the cam pin in and at the proper orientation. If the cam pin rotates in the bolt so it is no longer square, I can see it easily jamming up in the slot along the top of the upper receiver and causing damage.

Good point. I didn't think about the cam pin sliding out of the bolt and bolt carrier.

 

[taliv]

Why are you so hesitant to chamber a round at home?

Follow the 4 rules and pay attention.

What do you think all of the people who keep loaded firearms at home for defensive purposes do?

Finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard the entire time, keep the safety on, maintain the muzzle in a safe direction...why such a big deal?

because the AR15 design uses a floating firing pin. That means slamfires are a real possibility. Very rare, for sure, but they do happen. Poet, look at a round you've chambered and removed and you'll see a little dent on the primer from where the firing pin smacked it when it was chambered.

following the 4 rules will ensure no one gets hurt, but it will not prevent hearing damage from setting off an AR15 in a small apartment, nor will it prevent someone from calling 911 to report shots fired.

Poet, I understand and am not trying to tell you not to ever chamber a round. I'm just saying don't sit there watching TV chambering and ejecting the same round 1000 times. Use snap caps or just dry fire

 

[Warp]

because the AR15 design uses a floating firing pin. That means slamfires are a real possibility. Very rare, for sure, but they do happen. Poet, look at a round you've chambered and removed and you'll see a little dent on the primer from where the firing pin smacked it when it was chambered.

following the 4 rules will ensure no one gets hurt, but it will not prevent hearing damage from setting off an AR15 in a small apartment, nor will it prevent someone from calling 911 to report shots fired

I have no yet been made aware of any slam fire from a an AR15 style rifle when using 5.56 ammunition. I haven't seen it, heard about it, read about it, seen it referenced in a forum post...nothing.

I'm sure it can happen, but...well...would you mind showing examples? I'd like to check them out/bookmark them, since it's new to me.

 

[taliv]

member slamfire1 will be along soon to comment or you can do a search for his posts

 

[taliv]

(here's one post where he reported a gas piston AR slamfiring with winchester 223 rounds http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7117071&postcount=21 )

 

[poetdante]

Chambering a round is sometimes unavoidable and I always use care. I only try to repeat a process if it shows up with snap-caps because they are different from normal rounds (i.e aluminum instead of brass). That being said, I treat rifles like I do shotguns, one bump can set them off (in theory) so I don't keep them loaded. the thread isn't really a safety one (I have read many of those already ) but rather about the markings. You see, some threads like on ar15.com and defensivecarry have said that there should be no markings on the casing from ejecting and that it could possibly lead to a serious problem (i.e KA-BOOM instead of just going boom when firing). My next concern is that these scorings will affect my ability to reload them.

So, after using snap caps you see the results in the above pictures. On live rounds I only see scoring on the bullets themselves (though the tarnish on the brass might be obscuring the scratch on the casings). The store I bought it from said what I'm seeing is from a break-in issue and I need to put 1000 rounds before it will go away and for the life of me this never happens when they do it with their A-Zooms. You guys have been very helpful with ideas and tips btw! It seems like this isn't an uncommon thing and yet noone has said that this is exactly SUPPOSED to happen. What's really odd is that the problem is sporadic. That is, the scoring showed up on brand new snap-caps. I tried again and didn't really see anything new. After trying a live round I tried again with snap-caps and saw scoring again, then no scoring with the 2nd snap cap after. Etc.

 

[primalmu]

You're overthinking it. Just shoot the dang gun! As long as it functions reliably its fine.

 

[Warp]

(here's one post where he reported a gas piston AR slamfiring with winchester 223 rounds http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7117071&postcount=21 )

Is there a 5.56 and AR15 style rifle example with a link?

Correct me if I am wrong, but that example is soft commercial .223 primer'd ammo, correct? And that is going to be a different case than military spec/primer'd 5.56, is it not?

That post is short on details though. It doesn't even tell us the make or model of the rifle.