Ar-180

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Okay. So I have a few questions about the AR-180. I've heard it was a lower production cost alternative to the AR-15. But, only Japan (as a Howa produced weapon) actually adopted it, (in a true assault weapon fashion), but then cut production. They were Armalite and still have the name though they aren't the same weapon as used to be made. (I'm wondering if that was correct)

Basically, what I'm wondering is:

A.) How accurate is it?
B.) Are the mags STANAG in American examples?
C.) Who actually (and where) are they made?
D.) Is $900 a good price?
E.) Are there any decent optics or should I wait for the accessory rail equipped variant comes out?
F.) How does it handle?

(For reasons of political minded folks, this is a weapon I'm interested in, but could wait a while to actually buy, and I wouldn't feel absolutely horrible if a future ban came. Basically, I am willing to wait a while to save up the money to buy it).
 
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A) As accurate as any other first-generation pencil barreled AR. Nothing outstanding, but more accurate than an AK likely.
B) None of the original AR-180's used STANAG magazines, but, the magazines can be converted with a Dremel(r) cut off wheel. The original 180 uses a slot, not a notch. Modern AR-180B's are STANAG compatible.
C) True about it being an easier to manufacture alternative to the AR, it didn't need modern a aluminium forging industry with the sheet metal receiver. Wikipedia has a list of the companies that have manufactured the 180.
D) Not sure what a good price is, it all depends on if you want a modern urban rifle or a piece of firearm history.
E) The included optic mount is one of those VHS vs. Beta arguments. Beta was better, but it didn't win the popularity war. There Are 180 mounts available, but you have to look.
F) I used one for a number of years, the reciprocating handle doesn't get in your way and replaces the more complicated forward assist on an AR. The folding hinge of the buttstock was a weak point on the original 180; the polymer one-piece buttstock on the newer -B model is stronger but less convenient for armor and airborne operations or for storage.

Hope my free opinion is worth what you've paid. :)
 
I will add,
1) They where made by Howa of Japan, Armalite of Ca., and Sterling England.
2) They are a lot more accurate then the AK.
3) The B model was selling for $650-$750, but in this market I suppose they could fetch $900.
4) The B model isn't close to be a serious weapon.
 
i bought mine(sterling) in 1984 for 430.00,its never jammed in the 24 years ive had it,except for a reload that the guy who made them screwed up the sizing of the round. the trigger is a bit heavy in pull,single stage.folding stock works fine,sometimes theres a little play when open.ive seen them for $800 & up,but with the current situation with price gouging,it can be higher.900.00 seems about right. they were made 1st in the us, then howa in japan, then sterling in england.i think the rights were sold to the phillipines & they were made there,too.there is a website called stormwerkz.com that sells a picitinny type rail for the gun for about 75.00, then you can mount any optics you like,as opposed to the standard mount with integral scope.whats nice about the bolt system is that the theres not much that the bolt could get hung up on if it gets dirty.it rides kind of like a robarm m96 or ak...
 
Bushmaster M17, SA80, SAR80, Leader Dynamics Carbine, Howa 89....the simplicity of the AR-180 is being seen in many of the modern rifles being designed.
 
E.) Are there any decent optics or should I wait for the accessory rail equipped variant comes out?

Is Eagle/Armalite still producing the AR-180B? They seem to be quite scarce, while the company seems to be cranking out AR-15 type rifles as fast as they can make them. Doesn't seem like a design that's likely to see heavy development by the current manufacturer or aftermarket accessories.
 
According to Armalite's site, they are manufacturing them, and you can order them. Their price to order says $852.00

I don't see the picatinny rail equipped one, though I did see the advise on aftermarket options for that.

And, from all my research, I am wondering why the AR-180 (AR-18) etc. didn't go to more countries and get seen in more places. And, why it hasn't been a more popular seller in the U.S. I realize I could be just sending sparks for that flame war but.... It seems superior to the AR-15/M-16 series, and with a heavy barrel and a decent set of sights, or glass, I could see it being both equally accurate, and more reliable.

Granted, that is suposition. I'd love to get my hands on one to test it out. I've used the AR extensively, and while I do like 'em, I always like to shoot something else just to see.
 
And, from all my research, I am wondering why the AR-180 (AR-18) etc. didn't go to more countries and get seen in more places.

I think the AR-18's situation has a lot to do with hitting the market with poor timing. The US military had already committed to the M16, and other NATO nations were still content with the FAL or G3. Those three weapons also collectively had most of the market share in 3rd World nations that were pro-western. On the other side, of course, megatons of AKs were being handed out to any government or militant group that could reasonably mumble a few phrases about Marxism. Add in the couple smaller nations that did go-it-alone efforts on small arms (Israel and the Galil, for instance) and there just wasn't a whole lot of market available when the AR-18 came to market.

The wikipedia entry for the AR-18 says it was poorly marketed by ArmaLite, which I suppose may also be true and may kind of be a chicken or egg kind of thing with what I said above.

Even though the design as built by the original ArmaLite was a failure, many later designs have borrowed liberally from it, so it seems like it's been a winning piece of design work, even if it never sold very well.

The AR-180B seems to be another story, however, as it has earned a reputation for not being suitable for more than casual plinking due to the substitution of the plastic lower receiver for the original steel. (Polymer is probably completely workable in this role, but Eagle/Armalite's execution seems to have created an issue.)
 
What it sounds like is that the design needs to be bought by somebody that both gives a crap, and is serious about selling it.

The manufacturing methods tell me that it shouldn't be a $854 rifle. It should be close to between $600-$700 retail.

If somebody were to buy the design and get serious about making a good rifle, I could see it giving (not AR-15s) Ruger Mini-14s, and Kel-Tec Su-16s as well as some higher end AK models a run for their money.

Especially if it could be produced in 7.62 NATO take FAL mags, and be around $600. But, I guess that's just pie in the sky.

Sounds like, especially with the issues experienced with the new "B" model, I'd be better served by a different weapon.
 
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Brought one about two weeks ago (AR-180B) and only been out shooting with it once but here's what I think

A.) How accurate is it?
Haven't done any group testing yet, but seems to be about the same as my Bushmaster M4 clone.

B.) Are the mags STANAG in American examples?
The new ones are, the older ones are not.

C.) Who actually (and where) are they made?
Armalite in Ill

D.) Is $900 a good price?
A little high, paid $750 two weeks ago, but with gun prices going nuts??:banghead:

E.) Are there any decent optics or should I wait for the accessory rail equipped variant comes out?
IMHO do not wait for the rail variant to come out, the top rail as-is is IMHO one of the best ever designed, you can change out the optics in 2 seconds and recoil just tightens it. The mount can be ordered off Armalite's website. If you want a normal rail there is a company making one that goes on and off just like the scope mount which gives the best of both worlds.
http://www.stormwerkz.com/StormWerkz_Scope_Mounts.html

F.) How does it handle?
Great, the sights are lower than on a AR-10/15 giving better cheek weld and this thing is light, lighter than my M4 but that does increase felt recoil a tad.
Runs much cleaner than my ar-10's/15's due to being a piston design and is much quicker to clean.

To add.. The new production ones have gone back to the original pre-ban 3 prong flash suppressor/brake (replacing the brake only) as well as adding back the bayonet lug. Every picture I have seen on the web of the 180B is outdated, even the ones on Armalite's website is outdated. And when I say new I mean within the last 2 or 3 months.

It's like an AK and an AR got together and had children.

YMMV
 
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The original Armalite company designed the AR-18 after they sold the rights to the AR-15 and its direct impingement gas system to Colt. Why Armalite thought they would be more successful selling the AR-18 to militaries after they failed in their attempt to market the AR-15 is beyond me.
 
Armalite was part of another company (Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corporation) and then later became it own as Armalite Inc. But before that the rights to the Ar-15 had been sold to Colt. Fairchild was in financial trouble and it was a quick buck. With the rights sold off and now being their own company they had no choice but to come up with a new design that didn't violate the patents of the AR-15. They have to make a product to survive don't they?

When the AR-18 came out it was considered by many to be superior to the AR-15/M-16 at the time. Now mind you, the AR-15/M-16 of today is not the AR-15/M-16 of the late 60's. Remember the time frame we are talking about.

At the time the AR-18 was considered by many to be

more accurate (or so I have heard)
more reliable
easier to maintain
cheaper to build
easier to scope
and
could use a folding stock (no long buffer tube)
used the same ammo.

Whats not to like?

They had a good product but let face it, Colt has had a long history selling firearms to Uncle Sam and Armalite got muscled out. Happens all the time. Notice how the new Armalite (Eagle arms) of today calls their AR-15 the M-15 :rolleyes: so as to not anger the giant that is Colt, despite the fact that the AR in AR-15 as well as the AR-7/10/18/180/24/26 and many others is short for Armalite.
 
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While I hate the politics of these sorts of decisions, the AR-15/M-16 is the government's baby. They couldn't just change around in the middle of production and pick up the AR-18 considering the money already outlayed.

Now, as for Armalite of today, they seem to be making several mistakes in marketing, and production that are pretty obvious to me. And, it's hard to blame that on the government.

In fact, I believe if it weren't for the Obama-scare buy spree, Armalite would be having some pretty severe problems. But, right now, every AR manufacturer is making money hand over fist.

That being said, if I were Armalite, I would try to move out of the AR manufacturing market (in a long term strategy because it is oversaturated).

But, Armalite's execs don't talk to a lone young Missourian who believes he has his finger on the pulse of the American EBR buying public.
 
An AR-180B was my first EBR, and my first rifle in general. Accuracy was about what you'd expect for a pencil barrel 20" AR that wasn't set up for match shooting. Trigger was a normal single stage military trigger, nothing to write home about but I've shot worse.

Handling is subjective to say the least, but it was light and fast. Much more so then an AR of comparable length. One other thing is that with it lacking the big recoil buffer, you do feel more of the recoil (it's still a 5.56 though).

Overall I really liked it, but I had to sell it to fund my work rifle (I'm LE). One of the biggest things I really liked about the 180 design in general was how easy cleanup and maintenance is. Usually took about 15 minutes if that to clean up, didn't matter if it was 1 round or a case of 5.56.

-Jenrick
 
Even though i have a sterling version, i know a gun store thats been sitting on a slightly used "b" model for 599.00, im thinking about going there tomorow & getting it.its been there for about 2 years,i think its a great deal.gun looks almost new.any thoughts about the 180 at this price?
 
Isn't the Brits' L85 pretty much an AR18 in bullpup configuration? This is what Max Popenker claims on his website.

That rifle, by all accounts, sucked.
 
Even though i have a sterling version, i know a gun store thats been sitting on a slightly used "b" model for 599.00, im thinking about going there tomorow & getting it.its been there for about 2 years,i think its a great deal.gun looks almost new.any thoughts about the 180 at this price?

With the way anything with AR or AK in it's name being hard to find and over priced right now :mad:, that sounds not too bad if it's in good shape. From reading on the web I think the main thing to look for is for cracks in the lower. Seems Armalite had a problem with the early 180B's being weak in the lower but also according to what I have found on the web they fixed or improved the lower on the newer ones, but at what point they made this change (if any) I do not know.
 
I have had one of the original AR180s (Costa Mesa) for almost 40 years. I don't shoot it anymore, but when I did it was great. The piston system is superior, it is as accurate as any AR or better and is pretty rugged. I also like the folding stock and have had no problems with it. I also have the original scope that mounts in a dove tail on top of the receiver and even the original bayonet. The fact that it is a good design is shown by the many copies of its design features in other weapons, such as the G36 used by the German Army. The US Army should have adopted it, in my opinion. I was able to pick up enough original magazines that I didn't need to modify any of the standard AR types. Its main problem is its low production numbers. But I have seen them for decent prices at gun shows.
 
I have one of the original AR-18/ 180's from Armalite, Costa Mesa, CA. It is one that
actually used the AR-18 to make. The lower receiver is the civilian stamped with just
the Safe - Semi selector positions, but the internals are of the AR-18 military version.
I know that Armalite changed the internal parts to the 180 at some point, but by the
time they had made my four digit serial, they had not.

What most do not know is that Gene Stoner patented the AR-15 gas tube system, and
had designed the basic action for it, which was also used in the AR-18/ 180 models.
There were actually three people involved in the design of the AR-15, the AR-18, and
the AR-180, and Stoner was only involved with the 15. It is correct that Fairchild
Aviation owned Armalite at that time, and with financial problems, and a total lack
of knowledge of the firearms industry, decided to sell the AR-10, and AR-15 rights
to Colt. After that, Gene Stoner left Armalite, and went to Colt as a consultant.

During the time Stoner was with Armalite, he was involved with the presentation
for testing of the AR-15 to the government. It failed testing on several issues. He
felt he could iron them out, so he left Armalite after the sale of the rights on the two.

The basics for the AR-18 for the military had already been pretty well designed to
overcome the issues with the 15. An AR-16 in 7.62 caliber had already been designed,
but it never went to production as the government was looking for the smaller caliber
round in 5.56. Armalite produced the 18 for submission. Several rifles were even sent
the the Navy Seals for trials. The Seals loved them, and even after Armalite had lost
out in the competition with Colt, they refused to return them in favor of the newly
adopted M-16.

Now, about the adoption of the M-16. Basically, the military always uses the 'M'
designation for the number of modifications. There were exactly 16 modifications to the
AR-15; ie: M-16. This wasn't the name of the rifle, it was the designation number of
modifications. Now, whenever the U. S. tests new military equipment, many of the allies
seek to have the same. Since they do not have access into the process at the early
stages just after testings, they use politicians to seek out the information from our
politicians prior to any official announcement of just what is adopted. In that way they
can get orders into the selected company fast to get a faster delivery of the new
equipment. This is the point where there was a political screw up. (and we all know just
how politics can screw up just about everything.) One particular politician (who was
more impressed with himself, and building a stature with other nations) informed all the
questioning allies that the U. S. was buying the M-16. That move prompted Colt to
quickly name their rifle M-16. At that particular time in the process, only the AR-18 had
passed all the tests. One of the issues that had not been changed on the 15 was the
chrome lining that was in the 18. The 15 was also supposed to have that, but it was
the Presidents 'Wiz Kids' that decided to not use it to keep the cost down.

Again, politics, and Colt pushed the issue through for the AR-15, due to the fact that
so many other countries would blame the U. S. for having them buy the inferior rifle of
the testings. At that time the 18, and not the 15 had passed the tests. The position
of politics, and the well known firearms company of Colt decided the issue. Also, due
to the lack of knowledge in the firearms industry by Fairchild Aviation, there was no
challenge made over this. It should have been a very strong challenge. Instead, it was
just non-existent.

Whereas, there was a problem at the time that was questioned on the AR-18, it did
not have anything to do with the testing phase of the time. This was in the weakness
of the folding stock hinge, and the plastic butt stock. Everything else at the time met
all criteria. Of the whole fiasco only the chrome lining part was not able to be covered
up when the problem without it due to the powder used, and the lack of chromium
caused problems. The first troops issued the new M-16 were told it was self-cleaning.
That was the claim of the 18, not the 15. The 18 could claim it best due to the gas
piston instead of the gas tube, and the specifically named powder to use in ammunition.

The AR in all rifles that use that designation actually stands for "Armalite". Only the
AR-15, and the AR-10 can properly call a weapon name an "AR" if it is not from Armalite.
Those are the only models where rights to it was given. Later models of the Armalite
rifles could be used by the companies that had purchased Armalite, and made rifles
under the Armalite name they bought.

I do feel that a heavier barrel might be a good move if one is firing a lot of rounds,
very fast such as in a full auto mode. However, in semi-automatic firing, I have
never found this to be an issue. However, only the companies that had previously
owned Armalite (Howa, and Sterling) were even involved with auto-fire rifles other
than the original Armalite. Eagle, who purchased the Armalite name in recent times
is not involved with auto versions as they are not competing in military trials. Some
LE possibly, but in most cases those agencies just go to the M-16.

The thousands of the AR-18's, and 180's made with the stamped receiver are quite
good rifles. They are very serviceable, and quite accurate. Many have been used
in National matches, and shoot well with the best names. Some have had barrels
replaced with newer design ones for very precision shooting at the 600 yard course.

One thing that some have experienced as a problem is with the spot welding of the
dovetail mount for the Armalite scope. In some cases these welds have come
loose. I have never seen one with that problem, and mine still is very solid. This
type of dovetail mount for a scope allows it to hold a scope to perfect zero every
time it is removed, and reinstalled. Firing the rifle actually causes it to seat the
scope even firmer to that zero. No extra adjustments are necessary as with other
mounting methods.

The unfortunate issue with the older model Armalite rifles today is that no one has
the original data, drawings, specs, or parts. It would take a list of those that have
these older Armalite rifles to give some company the idea that making parts for
replacement would be a viable effort. As it is now, they do not have call for parts
enough to know that there is a market. 20,000+ rifles out there is enough to entice
some company, but they just are not aware of these numbers. Why should they waste
time, and money to make parts, and advertise without such info?

I have been in contact with a company that questions just this, but they are talking to
me on the possibility of some parts. If someone would like to get a list started of
prospective purchases of parts for the early model armalite rifles , please get in touch with me.

[email protected]
 
As long as it doesn't bite any other threads, a zombie thread is pretty harmless. Even the silliness about M-# meaning how many mods from original were involved. (M1 Garand required no mods? What about the M777 howitzer? Or humvees which start at M998 or so and go up from there.)
 
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