AR advice/help needed!! PLEASE!!!!
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Soupshooter
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Well the ammo company must have bankers hours. Just tried to call and they're closed on Friday afternoons! Now it's wait 'til Monday!
I'm guessing that 55g will fit on top of "it" ( not sure what to call it) inside that case?
So that leaves a couple of likely scenarios...
A) disgruntled employee
B) accidently inserted somewhere along the way
My long shot theory and prolly one you don't want to hear.
C) Your daughter would have been young when you were reloading ammo and these boxes are quite old. Is it possible she could have been playing around your reloading setup? And you mixed up ammo all those years ago?
Back in the day, I used to have to empty my cases anytime my son was in the garage. I think he just liked looking but he always seemed to drop stuff in them..
So that leaves a couple of likely scenarios...
A) disgruntled employee
B) accidently inserted somewhere along the way
My long shot theory and prolly one you don't want to hear.
C) Your daughter would have been young when you were reloading ammo and these boxes are quite old. Is it possible she could have been playing around your reloading setup? And you mixed up ammo all those years ago?
Back in the day, I used to have to empty my cases anytime my son was in the garage. I think he just liked looking but he always seemed to drop stuff in them..
Criminal Lunacy?
From the pictures of the bullet, it makes me think of the recent news story of the needles in the sandwiches on the airlines. Could some nut have made this 'bullet' and did this as an act of sabotage with evil intent? I'm not a gunsmith, handloader or expert, but this 'bullet' doesn't look like anything I've ever seen. Glad to hear you and your daughter are ok. I have two sons ages 14 and 18, who shoot with me at the range occasionally - what a frightening thought to have this kind of accident!
Why is the ammo company being so difficult about replacing your firearm? If it were my company, I'd have replaced your gun with a new one in a heartbeat! It's good PR and the right thing to do! I don't see how they think its remotely your fault.
From the pictures of the bullet, it makes me think of the recent news story of the needles in the sandwiches on the airlines. Could some nut have made this 'bullet' and did this as an act of sabotage with evil intent? I'm not a gunsmith, handloader or expert, but this 'bullet' doesn't look like anything I've ever seen. Glad to hear you and your daughter are ok. I have two sons ages 14 and 18, who shoot with me at the range occasionally - what a frightening thought to have this kind of accident!
Why is the ammo company being so difficult about replacing your firearm? If it were my company, I'd have replaced your gun with a new one in a heartbeat! It's good PR and the right thing to do! I don't see how they think its remotely your fault.
Soupshooter
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I believe A or B, definitely not C. I stopped reloading when my daughter was 1or 2 at most, and my equipment was in a locked room in the second story of my house. I never, ever reloaded at any time with even a buddy in the room. I wanted to keep my mind on my work and not make a mistake. I have since been searching the net for issues with this brand and have run across several complaints including 2 bullets, wrong bullets, wrong caliber! Something else I thought of while doing this...Would it not be possible that this bullet wasn't formed correctly and somehow dropped through the bullet feeder and seated at a normal length therefore causing a compressed charge? They are steadfast that it wouldn't fit in their equipment, but ?
Soupshooter
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gbeecher, I agree. After they described it and said it wasn't theirs I remembered the whole Tylenol thing. If an employee is ticked off at the company, who knows what they would do.
Anything that were my or any friends reloads were always kept in ammo cans or plastic reloader boxes, not in factory boxes. I had five 50 rd boxes in a locked cabinet, in a closet for years. I shot a box a few years back and grabbed another that Sunday to go shooting with my daughter. That was the only.223ammo I had with me.
Anything that were my or any friends reloads were always kept in ammo cans or plastic reloader boxes, not in factory boxes. I had five 50 rd boxes in a locked cabinet, in a closet for years. I shot a box a few years back and grabbed another that Sunday to go shooting with my daughter. That was the only.223ammo I had with me.
Like I said longshot, strike it from the record... Ha ha
I guess it's possible that it is an un swaged bullet.. Course that depends what method the supplier was using back then.
Ask them if they have retooled or updated equipment since they were purchased. In heavy manufacturing 20yrs is a long time for machinery..
I guess it's possible that it is an un swaged bullet.. Course that depends what method the supplier was using back then.
Ask them if they have retooled or updated equipment since they were purchased. In heavy manufacturing 20yrs is a long time for machinery..
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Powderman
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Something really stinks here.
A bit of background here...
I am a NRA Life Member, a certified firearms instructor, and had my own business one time as a gunsmith.
I am also a Colt certified AR15/M16 armorer. I have been reloading for well over 30 years, to include I-don't-know-how-many tens of thousands of rounds of .223/5.56 ammunition.
During my time in the Army, I was also a Unit Armorer in three separate units, and I can't even count how many cans of M193 ball ammunition I have broken open and emptied (I have the dubious distinction of burning up M16A1's and M60 machineguns, as well.)
Finally, my line of current employment involves gathering evidence, evaluating it, establishing probable cause and effecting lawful arrest. ()
I'll say this: It looks like you were the victim of criminal mischief.
I am familiar with progressive and commercial reloading machines. As long as they are maintained and have a competent hand at the controls, they are almost literally bulletproof. If you are loading .223/5.56 on a commercial reloader (like a Camdex), it is impossible for the machine to feed a bullet of that length without tying up and possibly wrecking the machine.
Thus, you're looking at the probability of someone handloading that round and dropping it in a box, thinking that they were funny.
Look at the "base" of the projectile. I'd be surprised to see any exposed lead--it looks like a solid rod.
I'd like to know how the company got it out--it looks like it has marks consistent with a pattern of rifling. One of the properties of a projectile upon firing is that is is actually swaged under tremendous pressure to a slightly smaller size as it enters the bore. And once it's in there, IT"S IN THERE.
From what I see you were darned lucky. Folks, this is a definite testimony to the strength of the AR pattern rifle. A regular, normal round in that rifle fires at around 52,000 psi. I cannot begin to imagine the horrible temperature and pressure generated when firing that round that blew up your rifle.
I would take the whole mess and find a good lawyer who is experienced in that kind of work. There is a good possibility that there is a nut somewhere who has a grudge against that company, who threw that round into a box.
A bit of background here...
I am a NRA Life Member, a certified firearms instructor, and had my own business one time as a gunsmith.
I am also a Colt certified AR15/M16 armorer. I have been reloading for well over 30 years, to include I-don't-know-how-many tens of thousands of rounds of .223/5.56 ammunition.
During my time in the Army, I was also a Unit Armorer in three separate units, and I can't even count how many cans of M193 ball ammunition I have broken open and emptied (I have the dubious distinction of burning up M16A1's and M60 machineguns, as well.)
Finally, my line of current employment involves gathering evidence, evaluating it, establishing probable cause and effecting lawful arrest. (
)I'll say this: It looks like you were the victim of criminal mischief.
I am familiar with progressive and commercial reloading machines. As long as they are maintained and have a competent hand at the controls, they are almost literally bulletproof. If you are loading .223/5.56 on a commercial reloader (like a Camdex), it is impossible for the machine to feed a bullet of that length without tying up and possibly wrecking the machine.
Thus, you're looking at the probability of someone handloading that round and dropping it in a box, thinking that they were funny.
Look at the "base" of the projectile. I'd be surprised to see any exposed lead--it looks like a solid rod.
I'd like to know how the company got it out--it looks like it has marks consistent with a pattern of rifling. One of the properties of a projectile upon firing is that is is actually swaged under tremendous pressure to a slightly smaller size as it enters the bore. And once it's in there, IT"S IN THERE.
From what I see you were darned lucky. Folks, this is a definite testimony to the strength of the AR pattern rifle. A regular, normal round in that rifle fires at around 52,000 psi. I cannot begin to imagine the horrible temperature and pressure generated when firing that round that blew up your rifle.
I would take the whole mess and find a good lawyer who is experienced in that kind of work. There is a good possibility that there is a nut somewhere who has a grudge against that company, who threw that round into a box.
Soupshooter
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Just read a thread on another site while searching for problems with this company...Found that a couple years back an individual had a problem with his ammo blowing out. Talked to same guy I did and was assured all would be taken care of...Until the ammo was returned to the company. Then he gets a call from same guy that said it was his gun's fault! Sound somewhat familiar?????? Now I'm really beginning to get ticked!!
Soupshooter
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Powderman, I couldn't agree more with your take. I think someone dropped it in the box, or maybe one of their inspectors themselves? It does appear to have a hollow point like a regular bullet would, but the base is flat or somewhat concave. I can't really tell if there is a lead core. The guy from the mfr. said it appeared solid core to him. As I said before this ammo was from years ago, lot numbers suggest '93. I don't know think they will pursue any other possibility without attorney involvement. I will try them one more time Monday if I get a chance. Otherwise it'll be Tuesday.
Soupshooter
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Gunmaker said not possible.?
Looks like a .308 or so bullet got run through the .224 bullet sizer and loaded in a .223 case. I would say that it had to have come from the cartridge that caused the KB because unless I missed it somewhere, where is the bullet from that round?
The bullet, and it is a bullet (copper not brass), was not from a 6mm load or any other wildcat based on a .223 case. The Blackout is the only one that would use a 125gn bullet and 1) it didn't exist in '93, 2) it would look really different than a .223 round and 3) it would have just ruptured the case and the bullet wouldn't have gotten into the barrel much if at all. The biggest 6mm bullet is only a 115gn and that bullet didn't exist until just a few years ago and it isn't suitable for the 6x45. The normal 6x45 bullet is in the 55-85gn range.
The bullet, and it is a bullet (copper not brass), was not from a 6mm load or any other wildcat based on a .223 case. The Blackout is the only one that would use a 125gn bullet and 1) it didn't exist in '93, 2) it would look really different than a .223 round and 3) it would have just ruptured the case and the bullet wouldn't have gotten into the barrel much if at all. The biggest 6mm bullet is only a 115gn and that bullet didn't exist until just a few years ago and it isn't suitable for the 6x45. The normal 6x45 bullet is in the 55-85gn range.
Soupshooter
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The front end was definitely made by a bullet forming die. The heel it's hard to say. I would guess the dimple is from where they drove it out of the bore after they cut the barrel off just in front of it. Possibly solid copper rod. If that's the case, it was intentional on someone's part.
Powderman
Member
It would be possible--but not in a firearm.
A swaging technique that allows for a wide range of experimentation calls for taking a larger bullet and drawing it down in a smaller swaging die. This allows dedicated wildcatters to try a whole new range of bullet designs, or to gain more projectiles for loading in a certain weight range.
However, this is done SLOWLY in a special swaging die. If this is tried in a rifle chamber, certain things would have to exist--a throat and leade that is the full diameter, tapering down to the desired diameter at the muzzle. It would also be desireable if a gain-twist were used--very slow at the chamber to the desired spin at the muzzle. The barrel would have to be really long, also.
This did not happen in this case.
Understand the dynamics involved in internal ballistics. When powder is ignited, it burns. As it burns, it generates gas at a much greater volume than the volume of the loaded powder, thus increasing pressure. As pressure increases, the burn rate of the powder increases. The pressure vessel (loaded cartridge) obturates to fill the chamber and to make a gas seal, temporarily protecting the shooter and allowing the full force of the generated gas to exert itself on the base of the projectile.
The projectile now moves forward out of the case through the leade to accept the rifling. As it moves down the bore, the powder it still burning and still increasing volume. This is at an acceptable pressure within the deformation limits of the barrel steel. Plastic deformation does occur, but the steel moves back into its original shape--or somewhat close to it. (If you really want to delve into it, look up Young's Modulus.)
This is the reason why cartridges of all types cannot use every powder on the market--and indeed, are only suitable within a certain burning rate and range for a particular cartridge.
With that long object in the case, sure, it started down the bore. But the friction generated by the extremely long bearing surface was too much--the pressure vessel could not expand its parameters fast enough to contain the powder burn. Thus, at the time that it appears the back of the object entered the bore, pressure had increased to the point where the burning powder accelerated into the explosive range. In short, it became a bomb.
Had this been a bigger bullet, it might well have been stuck in the leade. One of the things I saw in armorer's school that totally freaked me out was what happened when some nimrod stuck a .30 Carbine cartridge in an AR15--and fired it!
The bullet moved forward and shaped itself inside the leade and forward part of the chamber.
The CORE of the bullet pushed its way through the nose, and continued out of the bore! After removal of the jacket, the rifle was OK, and was capable of firing.
A swaging technique that allows for a wide range of experimentation calls for taking a larger bullet and drawing it down in a smaller swaging die. This allows dedicated wildcatters to try a whole new range of bullet designs, or to gain more projectiles for loading in a certain weight range.
However, this is done SLOWLY in a special swaging die. If this is tried in a rifle chamber, certain things would have to exist--a throat and leade that is the full diameter, tapering down to the desired diameter at the muzzle. It would also be desireable if a gain-twist were used--very slow at the chamber to the desired spin at the muzzle. The barrel would have to be really long, also.
This did not happen in this case.
Understand the dynamics involved in internal ballistics. When powder is ignited, it burns. As it burns, it generates gas at a much greater volume than the volume of the loaded powder, thus increasing pressure. As pressure increases, the burn rate of the powder increases. The pressure vessel (loaded cartridge) obturates to fill the chamber and to make a gas seal, temporarily protecting the shooter and allowing the full force of the generated gas to exert itself on the base of the projectile.
The projectile now moves forward out of the case through the leade to accept the rifling. As it moves down the bore, the powder it still burning and still increasing volume. This is at an acceptable pressure within the deformation limits of the barrel steel. Plastic deformation does occur, but the steel moves back into its original shape--or somewhat close to it. (If you really want to delve into it, look up Young's Modulus.)
This is the reason why cartridges of all types cannot use every powder on the market--and indeed, are only suitable within a certain burning rate and range for a particular cartridge.
With that long object in the case, sure, it started down the bore. But the friction generated by the extremely long bearing surface was too much--the pressure vessel could not expand its parameters fast enough to contain the powder burn. Thus, at the time that it appears the back of the object entered the bore, pressure had increased to the point where the burning powder accelerated into the explosive range. In short, it became a bomb.
Had this been a bigger bullet, it might well have been stuck in the leade. One of the things I saw in armorer's school that totally freaked me out was what happened when some nimrod stuck a .30 Carbine cartridge in an AR15--and fired it!
The bullet moved forward and shaped itself inside the leade and forward part of the chamber.
The CORE of the bullet pushed its way through the nose, and continued out of the bore! After removal of the jacket, the rifle was OK, and was capable of firing.
Powderman
Member
@helotaxi: That sure does appear to be done in a point-forming die.
The back end throws me for a loop, though. Note the (apparently) concave hollow in the base. The bottom appears to mave a smooth finish, though it's hard to tell.
And the horizontal marks on the base? Looks like powder/carbon stains. What do you think the story is on that?
The back end throws me for a loop, though. Note the (apparently) concave hollow in the base. The bottom appears to mave a smooth finish, though it's hard to tell.
And the horizontal marks on the base? Looks like powder/carbon stains. What do you think the story is on that?
Soupshooter
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They didn't drive it out. According to the guy I spoke with, he cut barrel off behind "bullet" actually removing a small sliver of it. Then he turned the barrel down in a lathe to just larger diameter to allow him to "peel" the remaining metal away to access it. Again, he still. Didn't return the ruptured case, nor have I received the replacement ammo...as if I will shoot that brand ever again anyway!!!!
Soupshooter
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Bandsaw marks? Look at barrel pics, they have the same marks I think you're referring to.
Tooling mark from whatever was used to cut the barrel would be my guess as well if they say that they cut a bit of it off.
That is a formed projectile, it's hard to deny it. It was also formed as a .224 cal projectile. the only questions are Why? By whom? and How did it get in the case?
That is a formed projectile, it's hard to deny it. It was also formed as a .224 cal projectile. the only questions are Why? By whom? and How did it get in the case?
SilentStalker
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I think you should get a lawyer involved here. I also think that you should post who the manufacturer is. This is nothing to play around with and by posting that information you could save a person's life or at the very least the incident you are going through. I would definitely get someone involved here. I take it that if he had weighed the bullets beforehand that the extra, whatever that is, in the casing would have caused the bullet to weigh more. Is that correct? How much more I do not know. If this was some kind of deliberate act by an old employee then maybe we should all be checking our ammo. I mean people are crazy and this is nothing to play around with. So, if weighed do you guys think that this one bullet would have weighed more than the rest and therefore alerted him to the idea that something was off on this one round or no?
If that "bullet" indeed weighs 125-ish grains, it would make the loaded round significantly heavier than a normal M193 clone. Consider than M193 has a 55gn bullet and only 25-27gn of powder, I would expect the loaded round to weigh around 60-ish grains more. That's about a 33% increase in weight (standard round is right around 175gn).
X-Rap
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Good luck getting anything but your gun replaced and your Lawyers fees will negate that unless one of them on this forum do it out of the goodness of their heart.
10 yr old ammo with who knows what chain of custody and the two possible defendants pointing their finger at each other doesn't sound like an slam dunk case to me.
Do you still have a receipt? Is the store still in business? Why did it take you 10 yrs to use up the ammo? Do you reload? For that caliber?
You see where this is going?
Sorry about your gun but just be thankful you and your daughter are both safe, you came as close to the shooters nightmare as any of us ever wants to be.
Keeping pressure on both manufactures might get them to loosen up just so you quit bothering them, saying their names in public might help too, might get a letter from their lawyer though.
10 yr old ammo with who knows what chain of custody and the two possible defendants pointing their finger at each other doesn't sound like an slam dunk case to me.
Do you still have a receipt? Is the store still in business? Why did it take you 10 yrs to use up the ammo? Do you reload? For that caliber?
You see where this is going?
Sorry about your gun but just be thankful you and your daughter are both safe, you came as close to the shooters nightmare as any of us ever wants to be.
Keeping pressure on both manufactures might get them to loosen up just so you quit bothering them, saying their names in public might help too, might get a letter from their lawyer though.
I wouldn't post another thing if you are going to get a lawyer involved.
At least until something came about from getting a lawyer involved. It will never make it to court, and if you settle in your favor, your lawyer will be covered by the defendant.
At least until something came about from getting a lawyer involved. It will never make it to court, and if you settle in your favor, your lawyer will be covered by the defendant.
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