USAF_Vet
Member
because the upper was locked in a vice and I wasn't touching the tube, just the barrel.
AR handguard removal
- Thread starter tickfarm
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WinThePennant
Member
Yes, there must be a million of them.
Personally, I think the Magpul handguards are excellent.
But, if you want a two piece that doesn't move, then you should look for anything that screws together. YHM. Daniel Defense EZ Car. I have a UTG that I bought off Amazon that is surprisingly good (though a bit heavy).
Blade First
Member
"...the much superior pinned on A2 front sight and gas block..."
You aren't an engineer, are you?
There is nothing superior about installing a FSB (originally spec'd more than 55 years ago, btw) that involves drilling two channels in the outer diameter of a recently rifled barrel and pressing/hammering in two taper pins to secure it.
Tolerance stack is inherent. And we can't ignore the other end of the FSB where clearances are...shall we say...good enough for government work.
My opinion, of course...
You aren't an engineer, are you?
There is nothing superior about installing a FSB (originally spec'd more than 55 years ago, btw) that involves drilling two channels in the outer diameter of a recently rifled barrel and pressing/hammering in two taper pins to secure it.
Tolerance stack is inherent. And we can't ignore the other end of the FSB where clearances are...shall we say...good enough for government work.
My opinion, of course...
WinThePennant
Member
I'm going to disagree with you. First, let's assume that the gun is properly put together (no tolerance stack, and it is zeroed in). Any AR that has sighting issues can be easily remedied as sights are adjustable, and pretty much anything can be switched out.
The advantages of the standard AR sight are numerous (you are probably aware, but here goes).
1. It's tough. It can get banged around pretty good, and still hold a zero. The front sight blade is protected by ears, and there are no moving parts.
2. It doesn't move. It's attached right to the barrel. Most free float rails have some 'flex' to them. In other words, press against the end of the tube (muzzle end - push left or right), and it will move slightly. So, if you are leaning your rifle against something, and taking aim, there's a good chance that your front sight is going to shift as the rail moves just a bit.
3. It won't 'disappear' in bright sunlight against a light background like a red dot sight will.
Jesse H
Member
Daniel Defense and Centurion Arms does. I have a Centurian Arms C4 on my work gun. I posted a picture of it in the AR picture thread. Been very happy with the durability of it.
Blade First
Member
"1. It's tough. It can get banged around pretty good, and still hold a zero. The front sight blade is protected by ears, and there are no moving parts." - WinThePennant
You mean something similar to these folding and fixed sights? http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Iron-Sights-s/8.htm
"2. It doesn't move. It's attached right to the barrel."
Which moves/flexes for a variety of reasons...which is why free-float tubes are so popular.
"Most free float rails have some 'flex' to them."
Compared to what? Tubes have exceptional rigidity for their weight.
"In other words, press against the end of the tube (muzzle end - push left or right), and it will move slightly. So, if you are leaning your rifle against something, and taking aim, there's a good chance that your front sight is going to shift as the rail moves just a bit."
You sound like someone who has little experience with quality free-float tubes. Sure don't mind you disagreeing with me, but a strongly held opinion is not necessarily a fact.
"3. It won't 'disappear' in bright sunlight against a light background like a red dot sight will."
Then use a green dot sight which mounts to the upper receiver rail. Or mount it anywhere you want with a monolithic upper system: http://aeroprecisionusa.com/ap/product-lineup-categories/upper-receivers/
You mean something similar to these folding and fixed sights? http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Iron-Sights-s/8.htm
"2. It doesn't move. It's attached right to the barrel."
Which moves/flexes for a variety of reasons...which is why free-float tubes are so popular.
"Most free float rails have some 'flex' to them."
Compared to what? Tubes have exceptional rigidity for their weight.
"In other words, press against the end of the tube (muzzle end - push left or right), and it will move slightly. So, if you are leaning your rifle against something, and taking aim, there's a good chance that your front sight is going to shift as the rail moves just a bit."
You sound like someone who has little experience with quality free-float tubes. Sure don't mind you disagreeing with me, but a strongly held opinion is not necessarily a fact.
"3. It won't 'disappear' in bright sunlight against a light background like a red dot sight will."
Then use a green dot sight which mounts to the upper receiver rail. Or mount it anywhere you want with a monolithic upper system: http://aeroprecisionusa.com/ap/product-lineup-categories/upper-receivers/
WinThePennant
Member
No flip sight will ever be as tough as a standard AR sight. No way, no how. I've used them all - Troy, Magpul, GG&G.
Free float tubes are rigid, but they still can be flexed from side to side pretty easily. They are basically attached at the barrel nut where the barrel meets the upper receiver. All the way down at the end, they will move when you push them. This is a common problem with accuracy as it also moves the flip up sight. A certified armorer surely has knowledge of this??? I've used a variety of FF rails, and they all did that. The Troy Alpha rail that I'm holding right now does so with ease.
And, I'd never mount an optic on anything but the rail on the upper receiver itself. Just because it's "monolithic" means nothing. Once it gets on the rail, it can be less accurate.
Free float tubes are rigid, but they still can be flexed from side to side pretty easily. They are basically attached at the barrel nut where the barrel meets the upper receiver. All the way down at the end, they will move when you push them. This is a common problem with accuracy as it also moves the flip up sight. A certified armorer surely has knowledge of this??? I've used a variety of FF rails, and they all did that. The Troy Alpha rail that I'm holding right now does so with ease.
And, I'd never mount an optic on anything but the rail on the upper receiver itself. Just because it's "monolithic" means nothing. Once it gets on the rail, it can be less accurate.
USAF_Vet
Member
Define pretty easily.
I have a 15" free float quad rail fore end on my carbine,, and it's rock solid. If your barrel nut is properly torqued, and the fore end tube properly installed, there should be almost no flex.
At the end of mine, locked in a vice, I still needed a micrometer to measure the flex of the rail, which measured in fractions of a millimeter. The barrel at the same place could visibly move a couple millimeters, perceptabke to the naked eye, no measuring tools required.
I do not feel a barrel mounted sight is superior to a rail mounted sight. High speed camera shots show the barrel moving drastically more than a free floated hand guard.
I have a 15" free float quad rail fore end on my carbine,, and it's rock solid. If your barrel nut is properly torqued, and the fore end tube properly installed, there should be almost no flex.
At the end of mine, locked in a vice, I still needed a micrometer to measure the flex of the rail, which measured in fractions of a millimeter. The barrel at the same place could visibly move a couple millimeters, perceptabke to the naked eye, no measuring tools required.
I do not feel a barrel mounted sight is superior to a rail mounted sight. High speed camera shots show the barrel moving drastically more than a free floated hand guard.
WinThePennant
Member
Not my video, but you can make it out if you watch closely.
http://s134.photobucket.com/user/rob_s/media/gun stuff/IMG_1307.mp4.html
http://s134.photobucket.com/user/rob_s/media/gun stuff/IMG_1307.mp4.html
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I can make out something flexing.
But odds are, it's the pencil barrel, not the handguard.
rc
But odds are, it's the pencil barrel, not the handguard.
rc
Blade First
Member
"...I'd never mount an optic on anything but the rail on the upper receiver itself."
Which betrays a certain lack of imagination, or familiarization, or both.
"Just because it's "monolithic" means nothing. Once it gets on the rail, it can be less accurate."
Did you actually visit the website I provided and actually familiarize yourself with the product? Do you comprehend what 'monolithic' means? Do you understand that the monolithic system means that the upper receiver and the FF rail are forged and machined as one integral unit?
Do you understand that the only attachment point between the barrel and the monolithic upper receiver system is the barrel nut used to secure the former to the latter?
Further, are you familiar with the phenomenon known as 'barrel whip'?
Awaiting your input...
Which betrays a certain lack of imagination, or familiarization, or both.
"Just because it's "monolithic" means nothing. Once it gets on the rail, it can be less accurate."
Did you actually visit the website I provided and actually familiarize yourself with the product? Do you comprehend what 'monolithic' means? Do you understand that the monolithic system means that the upper receiver and the FF rail are forged and machined as one integral unit?
Do you understand that the only attachment point between the barrel and the monolithic upper receiver system is the barrel nut used to secure the former to the latter?
Further, are you familiar with the phenomenon known as 'barrel whip'?
Awaiting your input...
Blade First
Member
"...odds are, it's the pencil barrel, not the handguard." - rcmodel
That's quite clear...and slo-mo video after slo-mo video confirms it.
WinThePennant seems to have a twin brother.
That's quite clear...and slo-mo video after slo-mo video confirms it.
WinThePennant seems to have a twin brother.
USAF_Vet
Member
In this video, Uncle Jerry has some nice slo mo fire on an AR with a free float hand guard. Start the video at 1:33 and you'll see how much flex the barrel has compared to the free floated tube.
Now imagine a front sight on the barrel, versus the hand guard in the same scenario, and tell me which one will have more movement while shooting.
Now imagine a front sight on the barrel, versus the hand guard in the same scenario, and tell me which one will have more movement while shooting.
T2K
Member
M16A1's and A2's that I used in my Army National Guard days = no problem with the ring to remove the upper and lower front handguard pieces. Pop them off, on, etc. These were well-worn rifles, particularly the A1's.
I bought a brand new LWRC M6A1 in 2011 = I had to get the damn tool! The spring was hard and the clearance to get the handguards out was much less, the ring had to be pushed down entirely.
I think there is some variation in that.
I bought a brand new LWRC M6A1 in 2011 = I had to get the damn tool! The spring was hard and the clearance to get the handguards out was much less, the ring had to be pushed down entirely.
I think there is some variation in that.
USAF_Vet
Member
That's exactly what the barrel flex on mine looks like, with the upper in a vice and no pressure on the hand guard. That's barrel flex.
WinThePennant
Member
You are referring to a high rate of fire situation. During that situation, wouldn't the more accurate sight be the one that follows the barrel? Two fixed points that don't move (referring to the rear and flip up sight) have nothing in common with the third point being the barrel that is whipsawing. Not making a point, but asking a question.
USAF_Vet
Member
If that were the case, why aren't reflex optics and red dot sights mounted on the gas block?
It's a good question, had to put some thought into it, but even under high volume shooting, the barrel whip is hardly noticeable to have much effect on any sort of sighting system. The entire argument is rather silly. Both front sight positions work.
It's a good question, had to put some thought into it, but even under high volume shooting, the barrel whip is hardly noticeable to have much effect on any sort of sighting system. The entire argument is rather silly. Both front sight positions work.
maxxhavoc
Member
If you are worried about a friction-fit rail slipping on the barrel nut, look at the ALG free-float rail. It is a little more of a complicated install, but when finished, it is more solid than any other rail I have used. The rail bolts directly on to the custom barrel nut. With 6 screws.
Not to say my MI can be moved easily, but the ALG is almost overbuilt. It ain't moving. I am using a carry handle and non-folding front rail-mounted sights on a 15" rail. Much more accurate than it was with the original sights set at carbine length. Once again, this is due to the sight radius more than the sights themselves.
Not to say my MI can be moved easily, but the ALG is almost overbuilt. It ain't moving. I am using a carry handle and non-folding front rail-mounted sights on a 15" rail. Much more accurate than it was with the original sights set at carbine length. Once again, this is due to the sight radius more than the sights themselves.
WinThePennant
Member
I agree with this. I'm thinking about switching out my Troy rails (which I'm less of a fan of than I used to be) for these ALG rails.If you are worried about a friction-fit rail slipping on the barrel nut, look at the ALG free-float rail. It is a little more of a complicated install, but when finished, it is more solid than any other rail I have used. The rail bolts directly on to the custom barrel nut. With 6 screws.
Not to say my MI can be moved easily, but the ALG is almost overbuilt. It ain't moving. I am using a carry handle and non-folding front rail-mounted sights on a 15" rail. Much more accurate than it was with the original sights set at carbine length. Once again, this is due to the sight radius more than the sights themselves.
fireman 9731
Member
I checked mine too. It is indeed the barrel flexing and not the tube.
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