AR Match triggers (and a question on uppers)

[Detritus]

Ok i'm not even sure where to start on this, so pardon me this may take a minute....

Ok went over the the ARFcom forum and wound up with a case of "WAY too much info" (and exceeded my daily allowance of "troll droppings" as well), with regard to the various "Match" grade trigger groups available. i esp ran into a considerable amount of trashing of the RRA 2-stage unit, saying that it tends to lose a stage after a certain amount of use.

well as some of you know i'm contemplating a Service Rifle legal AR for the next gun i buy/build for myself (wife's A1 clone is in the works) and i would like to know if there is any reason i should spring for a different trigger group than the RRA for this build?
I've seen alot of praise for the Geissele(sp?) trigger, and what i hear of teh design sounds good to my admitedly novice ears but i'm not exactly sure i'm ready to more than double the cost of my lower to get a trigger that i'm unlikely to gain any improvement from (right now an off the rack A2 would likely shoot better than i can hold).

so what's the general concensus amoung the HP crowd, should i just buy the Rock river unit and forget about such things till/unless it breaks, or should i invest now cause it's a crapshoot??

oh and a simple question on uppers, is a service rifle upper from Rock River (ie from their factory) superior to an upper from say Model 1 sales that has the same component piece (1in8 stainless barrel, NM sight, SR-legal float tube etc)??

 

[taliv]

9 out of 10 gurus disagree, but shop white oak armament/precision before you buy.

the geiselle trigger is the latest fad and the "in" thing to spend your dough on. jewel is another popular one. too bad anschutz doesn't make an AR trigger.

this is the first i've heard any complaints about the RRA 2-stage. i've heard plenty good about it. i had one that came in my RRA NM upper, but i replaced it with a jewel and sold it before i ever shot it.

i have a frank white trigger that i got at camp perry (under duress because my jewel failed) this year that i would sell very cheap if you want it. PM me if interested.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I had a RRA 2 stage trigger lose a stage. The 'smith told me that the first batch or these triggers off the assembly line had a design flaw: the sear engagement surface was parkerized before the parts were adjusted. After a few hundred rounds the parkerizing wore through, altering the critical dimensions just enough to mess things up. The solution was simple and obvious: polish the engagement surfaces clean first, then tune/adjust them bare metal-on-metal contact.

RRA fixed this problem years ago. It's a non-issue today, despite what the ARFcommers may tell you. Put a RRA 2 stage trigger in your rifle and you'll never look back.

 

[lycanthrope]

The White Oak tuned RRA is excellent. I also like the Jewell.

 

[Detritus]

but shop white oak armament/precision before you buy.

When the time comes I'll be considering one of their uppers, and depending on on what i can find i may go ahead and buy the trigger from them as well, unfortunately for the forseeable future everyting gun related that i do will be on a fairly tight budget.

thanks for the replies so far guys, that clears up my wonderings about the triggers.

and the white oak (proven excellent, as i understand it) uppers are about $120 more than the least expensive service rifle upper that i've been able to find so that maybe my answer there as well, but that's a little bit down the road.

 

[Joe D]

I have tried several brands of "match" triggers. The RR is OK I have one. I have "heard" that the Chip McCormick trigger is good also. After looking at how most of these triggers work I decided to try my own brand of trigger. I modify the stock components. If I change the trigger and hammer springs I can get a crisp single stage 2 lb trigger. Leaving them in gets a crisp 4 lb trigger.
It is not hard to do. All you need is a 1/4 28 tap, a set screw and some Loctite.
My varmint trigger is a Jard. I can get it down to 1 lb.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The White Oak tuned RRA is excellent.

I bought an RRA lower with the 2 stage installed. It never really had a second stage, just one long creepy pull until it broke. Felt horrible. People said I needed to let it "break in" so I shot it 300 rounds or so, never changed.

I bought the White Oak tuned kit and couldn't be happier, so the basic design of the RRA seems to be fine, just their QC may not be so hot.

 

[taliv]

tex, i got the same story on my frank white trigger. it did break in however and is reasonably crisp now.

 

[Helmut]

JP Enterprises trigger.... www.jprifles.com

 

[lycanthrope]

JP Enterprises trigger.... www.jprifles.com

Does JP make a two stage? Their single stage triggers are nice, but you really need a two stage for Service Rifle.

 

[Kamicosmos]

My Bushmaster Varminter's two-stage trigger was really nice. Till it wore out! I took a tactical rifle course using the lower, and it starting doing bursts on the last day. Replaced the hammer/sear with a normal mil-spec replacement from DPMS, and it's back to it's very nice 3.5lb 1st/1lb 2nd stage self.

Gun only had maybe 1500 rounds through it before I took that course, and around 800 rounds into the couse is when the burst fire problems started. I meant to ship the hammer back to Bushmaster to take a look at it, to see if it was a manufacturing error or metalurgy problem, but never did. Need to do that sometime...

I have heard many good things about the RRA trigger, and I think some people over at arfcom have confused it for the Bushmaster trigger, which is known for loosing it's second stage after time. (Although, not as fast as mine did!)

 

[Helmut]

why do you need a 2 stage trigger? try shooting a stage with 15 targets, double tapping (very fast, but accurately) with a 2 stage, then try it with a single stage match trigger and i think you will see why 3-gun competition shooters use a single stage trigger.

 

[Detritus]

why do you need a 2 stage trigger? try shooting a stage with 15 targets, double tapping (very fast, but accurately) with a 2 stage, then try it with a single stage match trigger and i think you will see why 3-gun competition shooters use a single stage trigger.

i'm a complete newbie but this is how i understand this. shooting high power XTC, on the slow fire stage(s) esp 600 prone the 2-stage trigger allows you to pull through the first stage and pause to perfect your final sight picture before adding just that touch more pressure the 2nd stage requires (reduces "wobble" due to trigger movement/pull is one way to put it).

across the course service rifle and 3-gun are entirely different games, and wth few exceptions I personally would not try and use the same rifle/setup for both, for 3-gun quicker lighter 1-stage units are a better choice, but when you have to have a 4.5 or heavier trigger to stay legal in your class, a 2-stage helps at 600. (and frankly on rifles with non set triggers and at ranges over 100 yards i preferr good 2-stage units anyway)

though at least one person i know of locally shoots a single stage 4.5# trigger in his SR gun.

 

[lycanthrope]

Helmut I shoot 3 gun with my Clark Gator, but there is no double tapping in Service Rifle. You load the gun up with about 10lbs of lead and shoot offhand at a stationary target out to 600 yards. Triggers can be no lighter than 4.5lbs. With a 2 stage you load the first stage up with 3lbs and you can have a 1.5lb final pull. Single stage triggers aren't as competetive.

Btw, the 1911/2001 trigger usually has takeup and is essentially two stage as well.

 

[BlindRat]

Detritus,
There's a lot of good advice here, some of it contradictory...so I thought I'd throw in my 2cents worth as well.

First off...introductions. I'm a Highpower Service Rifle competitor and a self admitted Trigger freak.

Now the advice. For Highpower most prefer a 2 stage trigger. As others have mentioned, you can load up on the first stage and be left with a lighter second stage for easier breaks.

Can you work a two stage quickly? Depends on what you mean by quickly. We typically do 10 rounds in 60 seconds with a reload in our normal shooting. There's also Rattle Battle where you're shooting rounds out of prone position at a much faster pace.

How to do it? I and most others use an "Infantry Trigger Technique" where after the intial break, you hold the trigger back and let it out just enough to re-engage the sear and release the disconnect. It's all single stage from there.

I don't generally feel comfortable with Single Stage Triggers in the AR because they're depending on reducing sear engagement to achieve their good feel (crisp breaks, and minimal creep). There's a very real line you can cross doing this that will give you doubles or worse. The current two stage designs are mostly protected from this.

Which two stage trigger do I like?
If price is not a consideration, the Geissele is the best. I like it mostly because it's crisp, good quality and has a shorter lock-time.
I also like the KAC (aka Stoner) because it's the "crispiest" I've pulled on and I like crispy. It's also the easiest to install and pull out if necessary because it comes out as a unit.

The Milazzo (MKII) is the former gold standard and is good, but you can't get them and they're expensive when you can. I sold mine. There are better out there now if you're going to drop that kind of change.

The best value in a trigger is a tuned RRA from White Oak. As other's have said, RRA has some QC issues. I've had one that was a creepy 7+ lbs. I've seen them with camming problems requiring grinding to correct. Getting one from (~$115) or tuned by (~$20) John Holliger/White Oak is well worth the incremental cost. If you're familiar with M14/M1 trigger tuning, the same principals apply and you can give it a go on your own.

Other's I've had/have/played with;
Compass Lake - they make excellent AR stuff...just not triggers.
Armalite - same comments as a stock RRA.
McCormick - Decent pull. Not Service Rifle Legal. Having everything locked up in that housing has me worried about adjustment/cleaning/repair.

I'd be happy to try to answer more specific questions.

 

[lycanthrope]

Quickly? I can do a Mozambique (2 shots body, one shot on the head) of a USPSA target at 10 yards in about 1.6 seconds from low ready and safety on with my Jewell trigger. This is with a 1.5x scope. With a red dot I'd be faster.

The 1911 trigger design with takeup is essntially a two stage with a very light first stage. With newer pistols running a trigger pull of 1.5lbs it's not unforeseeable to see a two stage trigger run with a single stage in a combat competition scenario. In Service Rifle, however, with its 4.5lb pull rule, the two stage offers an advantage.

 

[BlindRat]

There's a few things I just realized I omitted...
1) I don't do 3-gun or other "go fast" games...thus if it wasn't apparent from my intro, my comments pertained to Service Rifle. lycanthorpe, thanks for filling in my blanks.

2) I omitted the Jewell trigger. I have one and I've played with a bunch more. Unlike, lycanthorpe, I'm not a fan of the Jewell. Mine is inconsistent from pull to pull and has significant creep that no one has been able to tune out including USMC 2112's. I suspect it's related to the slop in the disconnect. In some cases the spring tension is not allowing the disconnect to reposition the same each time. To be fair, I've pulled on some good ones as well. Unfortunately, my feelings is that you shouldn't have to play the odds when you're dropping ~$180+ on a trigger.

3) If you're really picky, one of the areas these 2 stage triggers differ is in the "length of pull" for lack of a better term. They position differently front to rear and also where the 2nd stage starts front to rear. For example, the Jewell has a longer 1st stage and the 2nd stage engages farther back...and the Geissele sits farther forward. Most folks don't know the diff or don't care.

4) It's not uncommon that triggers will break in and less commonly some will lose the first stage. Engagement surfaces getting to know each other...surface finishes (bluing or parkerizing) wearing through. Not a big deal. Most times just need a touch up to bring things back in line. Here's where a working relationship with a good triggerman is helpful. That's why I recommend that my friends buy from John Holliger of White Oak. http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/pricing-products.htm

 

[lcarr]

why do you need a 2 stage trigger? try shooting a stage with 15 targets, double tapping (very fast, but accurately) with a 2 stage, then try it with a single stage match trigger and i think you will see why 3-gun competition shooters use a single stage trigger.

While I agree that I would prefer a single stage JP trigger for 3 Gun, I've used a Jewell just fine. I have no trouble, e.g., getting 0.15s A Zone splits on close targets without trying too hard--and mine is set somewhat heavy at 4.5lbs.

Lincoln R. Carr
[email protected]