AR questions

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

I haven't owned an AR in several years, and just traded into a new Doublestar lower. I haven't entirely decided if I want to build an AR or trade the thing for something more interesting.

I have a few questions for those of you with more AR experience than I have:

1. If I build, I'll build a scoped bench/hunting rifle. I want to keep the rifle short and lightweight, can a 16" barrel offer MOA accuracy, or will I need to go to a longer barrel?

2. I'd rather buy a complete upper than buy the parts and build it, but I can build what I want if I can't find it. WHere are some good online sources for complete uppers? (I've looked at Midway and Brownell's).

3. I specifically want a flat-top upper with no front sight. I think I want a 16" barrel - IF I can get one to hold MOA. If that can't be done, I'll go longer. Who makes a good barrel reasonably priced? I'm looking to spend $500-$600 on the upper.

Please keep in mind that this is NOT a "black ops" rifle, "counter-sniper" configuration, or any other such. The gun is not going to be dragged through the mud, pulled through the swamp, or blasted by sand. The rifle will be fastidiously maintained and divide its time between being a truck gun and being taken out on pleasant days to shoot groundhogs or punch holes in paper targets by a gracefully-aging redneck.

The trigger in my lower is a creepy six pounds, so I may do something about that later, but I need to build the rifle first, then worry about the details.

Thanks in advance for any advice you offer.

KR

 

[xfyrfiter]

Take a look at White Oak Arms uppers, really high quality and <moa accuracy guarantee.

 

[68wj]

A 16" can be just as accurate, but assuming .223, you are giving up some of the velocity that those little bullets need for good hunting performance. I like a 20" .223 barrel, maybe an 18", or a different AR caliber.

 

[M1key]

A number of mine are 16 inch, and with a decent 4X scope (to compensate for older eyes), I can easily hold 1 MOA with the right ammo and right conditions (no wind).

I own one of the Double Star lowers, topped with a Stag Arms 1:9, flat-top, low-profile (no front sight) upper. It is capable of busting clays at 200 yards, even with 75-77gr bullets.

BTW, that trigger should smooth up a bit with usage (mine did).

If you have decent skills, you should have no problem with MOA..

M

 

[northark147]

Probably woildn't hurt to look at DoubleStar uppers either.

http://jtdistributing.net/store/more_bu_saghbar.html

I have a 16" with that Wilson barrel that was made by Doublestar and it is very accurate.

They are a joy to deal with even on the phone. would not be surprising since you live close to them if they let you stand there while they built your upper.

 

[baylorattorney]

Just my 2cents.. If u want a truer shooting bench rifle - you must equip with a 20" or longer fluted barrel with a crowned muzzle and free of any attachments like flash hiders and the like. I had a 20' and I could make 300 yard shots on hogs that I couldn't duplicate with my carbines. The difference is a BIG ONE there. A complete setup that was similar to mine would be the Bushmaster Varminters. http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_pcwvms24fvar9.asp

 

[baylorattorney]

Wilson makes a trigger package that is sweeter than candy.

 

[Ramone]

I can get a 16" barrel (standard M4gery type) to shoot 1 MOA, but it takes handloads matched to the weapon.



I'd go at least 18", maybe 20", Fluted Heavy SS Barrel, no flashhider/comp.

If you sneak a 1/4-28 x 3/8 setscrew into the receiver through the pistol grip mounting screw hole (chase it out with a tap first, then locktite it when you have it just right) you can remove enough of the take-up to really make for a nice trigger. Go in till the safety starts to bind, then back out 1/2 turn.

a few minutes of a 1911 type 'poor mans trigger job' will make a difference too.

Follow-Through, holding the trigger till the weapon settles down, so it resets from the disconnect, also minimizes creep.

edited to add

if everything is in spec, the setscrew pre-travel trick will NOT cause the weapon to double- BUT! like any bit of DIY gunsmithery, DO use caution when testing- short load the first few mags with 2-3 rounds to avoid giving the RO a heart attack.

 

[helotaxi]

...or you could simply buy one of the myriad drop-in trigger groups that are known to be safe and won't result in a not-so-pleasant meeting with the ATF with a potential 10yr federal felony rap attached.

The difference in velocity that you would likely see between a 16 and 20" barrel is going to depend a lot on the specific load. There is no difference in accuracy. The shorter barrel will make for a much more carry friendly rifle.

 

[Zerodefect]

interesting.

I have a few questions for those of you with more AR experience than I have:

1. If I build, I'll build a scoped bench/hunting rifle. I want to keep the rifle short and lightweight, can a 16" barrel offer MOA accuracy, or will I need to go to a longer barrel?
I'd go to 18" so you can get a smoother shooting rifle length gas system.
2. I'd rather buy a complete upper than buy the parts and build it, but I can build what I want if I can't find it. WHere are some good online sources for complete uppers? (I've looked at Midway and Brownell's).
BCM has every type of upper you could want. Look towards the SS 410 barrel uppers. RRA and DPMS have cheaper uppers that are known to be very accurate for the price, but not really reliable.
3. I specifically want a flat-top upper with no front sight. I think I want a 16" barrel - IF I can get one to hold MOA. If that can't be done, I'll go longer. Who makes a good barrel reasonably priced? I'm looking to spend $500-$600 on the upper.

Yeah and i'd like a $500-600 girlfriend that deosn't empty my wallet every weekend. $600 is chump change in accurate AR world. Spend a little extra and get something really nice.

I'm going to recommend a BCM MK12 SPR mod 3x upper with the basic A2 flash hider. About $1200.




KR

Larue Stealth uppers are also very nice and accurate. Also around $1200. Rainier Arms builds uppers with a MOA promise.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

For all of the advice and links so far, thank you!

Zerodefect, The last AR I owned was an HBAR Colt with a 20" snout, so I'm inexperienced with the shorter 16" barrel. I have a couple of bolt action carbines (Remington 600 Mohawks) that have convinced me shorter-barreled rifles can be accurate. From some of the responses I've gotten here, I believe a CAR configured AR can be accurate as well. You said,

I'd go to 18" so you can get a smoother shooting rifle length gas system.

Please explain what you mean by "smoother shooting." Do you mean more reliable, or something else?

As for your advice,

$600 is chump change in accurate AR world. Spend a little extra and get something really nice. I'm going to recommend a BCM MK12 SPR mod 3x upper with the basic A2 flash hider. About $1200,

I appreciate the input, but I plan to stick to my stated price range. ARs are like every other firearm - you can spend as much as you like, but there is a definitive "elbow" before which more money buys substantially better quality and after which more money buys "brand name" and little appreciable gain in accuracy or reliability.

I have no doubt that the 1200.00 upper will be better than the $500.00 - $600.00 models, but the difference isn't worth it to me, if I can get respectable accuracy from an upper in my price band. If I'm going to drop $1200.00 on a rifle, I'd rather pick up another couple of Savage American Classic bolt actions in calibers I'm missing.

KR

 

[helotaxi]

The $1200 upper is a tactical style upper and not what it sounds like you're looking for. The additional cost (2x over the White Oak) will get you zero improvement in accuracy. Larue is the same type thing. Both are pretty big names in the tactical AR market and both unheard of in the varminting, hunting and accuracy competition circles. White Oak on the other hand makes varmint and target shooting uppers. They forgo all the rails, crazy barrel coatings and the other "options" that a "tactical" rifle "must" have and instead build a no-frills upper that shoots extremely well. In fact the only upper they build with a flash hider is their Service Rifle upper and it has the basic A2 birdcage. People win matches with WOA rifles.

By a "softer shooting" upper he's referring to the recoil impulse. The larger volume and shorter dwell (time between the bullet passing the gas port and leaving the muzzle) of a rifle length gas system on an 18" barrel makes the difference in perceived recoil between that and a 16" barrel with a carbine length system very pronounced. Of course you can get a very similar effect with a 16" barrel and a mid-length gas system. I've heard of 16" rifles with a full length gas system, but my understanding was that they were very finicky with regard to ammo. The carbine length system on a 16" barrel tends to be rather harsh. When you consider that the carbine system was meant for a 14" barrel it makes sense that it would be. That's an additional 2" of dwell with a system that was meant ot be slightly over-gassed to improved reliability in adverse conditions and when heavily fouled. Adding more dwell exacerbates the over-gas condition unless the gas port diameter is reduced as well, which isn't always done. Going with a mid-length on a 16" barrel reduces dwell and increases gas tube volume which softens things out a good bit.

 

[Zerodefect]

Yup. A 18" with a rifle gas system has a smoother recoil impulse. A medium contour SS barrel and rifle length gas system is really nice to have when shooting off a bench or prone with scoped AR's.

16", even 14.5", are fully capable of sub MOA shooting.

 

[madcratebuilder]

White Oak has a big following and produce nice equipment. The carbine gas system can be tamed down with a fixed butt, rifle length buffer and spring. If you have a collapsible butt you can use a H, H2 or H3 buffer, plus there are several aftermarket RE springs you can use.

My 14.5 carbine has the same recoil as my 20" Hbar, it uses a H2 buffer and LMT RE spring. Take a look at the Vltor A5 butts, longer tube, RE spring and heavier buffer.

 

[Sky]

The Bushmaster Varminter due to chamber does not like steel case ammo. Otherwise fun smooth accurate AR with a good trigger. Mine is used for hunting so it has never been worked hard just a little range time and a few varmints popped. The Varminter and Preditor are both great bi-pod or bench rest type ARs with the right ammo. Both are a bit on the heavy side with scope and bi-pod. Think the third pig I ever shot with the Varminter was a tad bit over 320 yards with 223 Remington match HPBT/75 gr. It was a lucky double pop shot because of the range but the Pig jumped up and came down and that was it.

I have CMMGs and even a Delton and all of my ARs work for my intended use.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=548179

 

[TonyAngel]

This is a 16" "precision" build that I did a while back. I used a Bravo Company SS410 stainless barrel with their version of a match chamber.



My load of choice was a 77gr SMK with 24gr of Reloader 15 in a Lake City case using Remington small rifle benchrest primers. This was typical of how it shot. This group was shot at 100 yards. 20 rounds were delivered with an already hot barrel as fast as I could get back on target.



The target dot is 1" in diameter on a 1/2" grid. I fully believe that I pulled those shots. It's really hard to shoot a 20 round group that quickly and maintain any sort of consistency. It is for me, anyway.

If you want a longer barrel, I wouldn't go longer than an 18". 20" won't get you much more velocity and the 18" with a rifle length gas system shoots SMOOTH. The 16" had a mid length gas system.

BTW, all things being equal, a shorter barrel will be more accurate than a longer one.

 

[Kerf]

Kentucky,
you may want to check the Model "1" website:

http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=652

Good barrels and reasonable prices

Kerf