AR School 102

[ExAgoradzo]

1. I understand there are different 'families' of ARs. They use each other's mags, uppers, etc. Could you lay this out for me so an idiot can understand, please?
2. DI vs. piston. OK, I get the concept, I can read wikipedia . But what do you guys say is the better way to go?
3. Building vs buying: So, I get why someone would want to build: perhaps I'll be there some day. But it seems to me that to get a semi auto 308 with a decent mag cap (I do live in CA, it won't be over 10) there are few ways to go (and this thread I'm trying to learn about ARs not FALs and M1As). So if I buy one then I'll learn enough to know how to build one someday. Right?
4. Most important question: I'm a rifle guy. I take a rifle, shoot it, clean it, store it. It sure seems like the whole AR thing adds so much to the affair that it kind of leaves me, meh.... Am I just imagining more headache than is really there???

So, what I am after.
I want a 308 (love the idea that I can later buy the 358 win, 338 fed, 260 rem, and 243 win later!!!). Armalite = AR10: Bushmaster (?) = LAR 8: ???


Thanks,
Greg

 

[heavydluxe]

1. I understand there are different 'families' of ARs. They use each other's mags, uppers, etc. Could you lay this out for me so an idiot can understand, please?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here... So, I'll let someone else who has a better idea answer. Or you can clarify.

2. DI vs. piston. OK, I get the concept, I can read wikipedia . But what do you guys say is the better way to go?

Religious question... I think the general understanding is as follows:

• Gas piston is more expensive initially, DI is less expensive
• Gas piston is cleaner (key word), and the DI is less clean
• Gas piston is considered somewhat more reliable, the DI is also considered adequately reliable

Again, putting aside religious overtones, it seems to me that the DI guns are perfectly adequate for 99% of all use - especially when properly maintained. The piston guns improve reliability to cover that other 1%. I would set your budget, intended use, and then see what your options are. It's a win/win, unless you're some spec-ops operator rolling around in the sand all day.

3. Building vs buying: ... So if I buy one then I'll learn enough to know how to build one someday. Right?

There's nothing wrong with buying a whole rifle. If you want to 'nerd out' on the build process (like I do) that's your right/privilege. But there's no merit badge for building. The biggest incentives for building (apart from the geek factor) is the ability to custom-tailor your gun immediately instead of being reliant on factory configurations and a possible cost-savings if you are selective in buying your components.

4. Most important question: I'm a rifle guy. I take a rifle, shoot it, clean it, store it. It sure seems like the whole AR thing adds so much to the affair that it kind of leaves me, meh.... Am I just imagining more headache than is really there???

Again, not entirely sure what you mean here... I think the AR is a fine platform. I built my first centerfire rifle (an AR) with my son. We had almost as much fun building it as shooting it. And, the gun is reliable and easy to maintain - especially for a gun n00b like me.

 

[cfullgraf]

Answers in red.

1. I understand there are different 'families' of ARs. They use each other's mags, uppers, etc. Could you lay this out for me so an idiot can understand, please?

Most AR-15 components are interchangeable with other AR-15 components. The bolt and sometimes the magazines are cartridge specific. AR-10 components are not interchangeable with AR-15 stuff for the most part and even between the different AR-10 manufacturers, from my understanding.

2. DI vs. piston. OK, I get the concept, I can read wikipedia . But what do you guys say is the better way to go?

Lots of folks swear by the piston systems, I have had no problems with the direct impingement. Someday, I might try a piston gun but am in no hurry. You do lose some parts capability with a piston gun.

3. Building vs buying: So, I get why someone would want to build: perhaps I'll be there some day. But it seems to me that to get a semi auto 308 with a decent mag cap (I do live in CA, it won't be over 10) there are few ways to go (and this thread I'm trying to learn about ARs not FALs and M1As). So if I buy one then I'll learn enough to know how to build one someday. Right?

I would buy my first AR as a complete gun and then buy some "how to" books or watch the tutorials on the web. assembling an AR is not difficult but requires some tools not normally found in most folks tool kits. Also, the builder needs to asses his mechanic skills.

I am very intimate with the AR-15s that I have assembled. I have assembled AR-15s that are not mainstream (caliber, barrel length, accessories, etc).

4. Most important question: I'm a rifle guy. I take a rifle, shoot it, clean it, store it. It sure seems like the whole AR thing adds so much to the affair that it kind of leaves me, meh.... Am I just imagining more headache than is really there???

I guess I do not understand what you think that the AR adds more "affair". In my opinion... It shoots and cleans just like any other rifle. It is no more complex than any other self loading rifle or shotgun. Maybe, it is the way you can easily customize an AR to your own wants and desires that adds to the ARs mystic.

So, what I am after.
I want a 308 (love the idea that I can later buy the 358 win, 338 fed, 260 rem, and 243 win later!!!). Armalite = AR10: Bushmaster (?) = LAR 8: ???

For these cartridges listed, you are looking at AR-10 type rifles.


Thanks,
Greg

Hope this helps.

 

[Warp]

1. I understand there are different 'families' of ARs. They use each other's mags, uppers, etc. Could you lay this out for me so an idiot can understand, please?
2. DI vs. piston. OK, I get the concept, I can read wikipedia . But what do you guys say is the better way to go?
3. Building vs buying: So, I get why someone would want to build: perhaps I'll be there some day. But it seems to me that to get a semi auto 308 with a decent mag cap (I do live in CA, it won't be over 10) there are few ways to go (and this thread I'm trying to learn about ARs not FALs and M1As). So if I buy one then I'll learn enough to know how to build one someday. Right?
4. Most important question: I'm a rifle guy. I take a rifle, shoot it, clean it, store it. It sure seems like the whole AR thing adds so much to the affair that it kind of leaves me, meh.... Am I just imagining more headache than is really there???

So, what I am after.
I want a 308 (love the idea that I can later buy the 358 win, 338 fed, 260 rem, and 243 win later!!!). Armalite = AR10: Bushmaster (?) = LAR 8: ???


Thanks,
Greg

1. Not really. If it is called an AR15 or M4 type rifle, everything should be interchangeable.

2. DI is the way to go, IMO. The gun was build and designed as and for DI, and it works very well.

3. If you get a .308, you are not getting an AR15. Rounds of that length do not fit an AR15 or M4 pattern rifle.

4. You aren't interested in AR15s at all. Go do a little more basic research, you are still at the 100 level.

 

[Ro1911]

Piston vs DI isn't even a debate IMO, DI is the only way to go unless you are running a full auto AR, a SBR, or a surpressor. Piston guns solve a few problems for these guns but they also create new problems. The main issue is that most piston guns replace a stainless steel tube with 4-8 small interlinked moving parts some of which need frequent replacement. Also piston guns are less accurate (unless it is a completely new design like the RRA PDS) DI has very few parts interacting with the barrel so they are usually very accurate. The biggest problem I have with piston guns is that they aren't anymore reliable then a DI under non NFA circumstances and they are 2-3 times the cost of DI.

Hope this helps

 

[Skribs]

1. There are different sizes, like carbine, mid-length, and rifle. I believe they are 14.5", 16" and 18" respectively, but I could be wrong as I've never seen this explicitely defined.

2. DI and Piston are both very good, and for 99% of the users outside the military it probably doesn't matter what you use. Piston won't gunk up as much and DI is going to be slightly more accurate, but overall there's not much difference either way. Unless you need long-range accuracy or you are shooting thousands of rounds in cruddy conditions without cleaning, you should be fine with either.

That said, I'd recommend DI, simply because it is more standardized and more plentiful. You will find more spare parts to accomodate a DI system and more gunsmiths will know what they're working with. Not only are pistons less popular, but every piston system is proprietary and different, meaning you can only get replacement parts from one manufacturer. The advantage to piston systems is that they can have a bolt carrier without the buffer tube, which means you can put a folding stock on such system.*

*There is a folding stock for DI, but it won't fire without the stock in standard configuration.

3. Talk of building vs. buying...it depends on your comfort level in working with things like this. Personally, if I had ARs for 40 years, I'd still buy or have built for me, because I am less mechanically inclined than a trout.

4. Are you saying the AR would require more cleaning? What are you comparing it to? (i.e. bolt action, lever action, FAL, etc). I don't see any reason the AR wouldn't be shoot it, clean it, store it.

 

[JustinJ]

The biggest problem I have with piston guns is that they aren't anymore reliable then a DI under non NFA circumstances and they are 2-3 times the cost of DI.

There are piston guns comparably priced to DI guns. Furthermore, some manufacturers, such as LMT, will have the same gun available as DI and as piston and the latter is not 2-3x the price. High end piston guns, such as LWRC, are much more expensive than lower end DI guns but it's about much more than the piston.

 

[mtrmn]

Apparently you want an AR TYPE .308. You are correct in that Armalite owns the AR10 name and trademark.

There are several companies making the AR type .308's. AR type .308s are larger than their AR15 brethren. Most of them DO use standard AR15 fire control groups etc.

The AR15 design was adopted by the military and that is why you can take Bushmaster parts and put them in a Colt, etc. They have been standardized in basic design and dimension. The larger frame AR type guns (.308's) have NOT been standardized and for the most part you CANNOT interchange parts from one brand to another.

My OLD Bushmaster BAR10 is the same design as the Rock River Arms LAR8 today. The RRA and my OLD Bushy use the FN FAL style magazines.

A NEW Bushmaster AR type 308 would be the same design as a DPMS 308. They would use a DPMS platform magazine.

Armalite used modified M14 platform magazines but now some new ones are available that use the DPMS platform mags.

It can be very confusing to say the least. If you are heading toward a .308 AR, I would suggest you buy the gun complete. And you will not have to take a 4 yr course in brand interchangeability to own one. All you NEED to know is what fits YOUR weapon.

As others have said, it would probably be best to buy any FIRST AR complete and maybe consider building later. When you DO build one though, you will wind up with a lot more knowledge of the weapon.

 

[cfullgraf]

1. There are different sizes, like carbine, mid-length, and rifle. I believe they are 14.5", 16" and 18" respectively, but I could be wrong as I've never seen this explicitely defined.

Generally, in AR-speak, carbine, mid-length, and rifle refer to the length of the gas tube and the location of the gas port in the barrel. The rifle's type, SDB, carbine, rifle etc, is dictated by the barrel length. Confused yet?

You can have a carbine length gas tube on a 16" barrel or a mid length gas tube on a 16" barrel.

AR-15 barrels can be short, like 7"-9" (these guns have pistol length gas tubes), or long, 24"-26" (my 24 inchers have the standard rifle gas tubes) and many barrel lengths in between.

The standard military M-16A2 has a 20" barrel. The standard military M4 has a 14.5" barrel. There are military variants with different length barrels.

 

[MachIVshooter]

1. I understand there are different 'families' of ARs. They use each other's mags, uppers, etc. Could you lay this out for me so an idiot can understand, please?

For the most part, everything is interchangeable from one make to the next. The exceptions are gas piston system components and sometimes billet receivers.

About the only difference you'll ever encounter from one AR to the next is the buffer tube on carbines; There is mil spec (1.15" OD) and Commercial (1.17" OD). They have the same threads and use the same internals, but stocks are not interchangeable (Mil spec tube + commercial stock = loose fit, commercial tube + mil spec stock = won't go on without employing a hammer)

2. DI vs. piston. OK, I get the concept, I can read wikipedia . But what do you guys say is the better way to go?

DI. It's lighter, it's cheaper, and will accept all standard parts and accessories. Op rod piston uppers are all proprietary, and many hand guards won't fit.

3. Building vs buying: So, I get why someone would want to build: perhaps I'll be there some day. But it seems to me that to get a semi auto 308 with a decent mag cap (I do live in CA, it won't be over 10) there are few ways to go (and this thread I'm trying to learn about ARs not FALs and M1As). So if I buy one then I'll learn enough to know how to build one someday. Right?

Building will get you everything you want, and you won't be removing parts you didn't want. It will also save you the 11% FET on complete rifles.

4. Most important question: I'm a rifle guy. I take a rifle, shoot it, clean it, store it. It sure seems like the whole AR thing adds so much to the affair that it kind of leaves me, meh.... Am I just imagining more headache than is really there???

ARs are not difficult to clean. They break down really easy. And, if you run them wet, it's mostly just wiping rather than scrubbing (like anything else).

So, what I am after.
I want a 308 (love the idea that I can later buy the 358 win, 338 fed, 260 rem, and 243 win later!!!). Armalite = AR10: Bushmaster (?) = LAR 8: ???

OK, since you're after a .308 AR, all the "rules" of the AR platform are out the window.

1) There is no .308 AR standard or mil spec. Each manufacturer has done their own thing, right down to magazines. Recently there has been some standardizing of magazines with 3 basic configurations. Armalite is the only manufacturer with rifles in 2 of the 3 magazine configurations.

2) Armalite is the only "AR-10", and is the one most similar to the AR-15. They use a lot of standard AR-15 parts outside of receiver, barrel and BCG.

3) I don't know how much compatibility the other makes have with AR-15 parts & accessories.

4) No .308 AR will accept AR-15 free float handguards, at least not without modification to the barrel nut and/or the handguard to allow the gas tube to go where it needs to in the larger receiver.

 

[Ro1911]

Maybe I should clarify any piston gun I would run is 2-3 times the price of a basic DI AR15.

 

[Skribs]

Good clarification RO.

Maybe someone can answer me this, since we're in AR 102 class. What is required for the barrel and the gas system to work together? I see there are different gas lengths and barrel lengths, and they don't always mean the same thing. So if I wanted a carbine gas length instead of a mid-length, does that mean I need a barrel with a gas port for a carbine?

ETA: If I were to buy the parts, how much do you think it would cost to have a gunsmith assemble them?

 

[Ramone]

Skribs-

Gas system length is simply the length of the gas tube, and (AFAIK) comes in 4 lengths- Pistol, Carbine, Mid, Rifle.

It's mostly independent of barrel length ( though you couldn't put a Rifle Gas System on a Pistol Length barrel, Obviously).

Leaving out pistols, for the moment, USUALLY, you will find Carbine length Gas System on barrels 14.5", 16". Mid Length GS on 16" and 18" barrels. Rifle Length GS on 18", 20" and longer barrels.

Generally, the barrel you buy will be machined for a specific length of gas system.

Many gunsmiths will not Assemble the parts for you as it means they are Manufacturers, and need a Manufacturers License, not a Gunsmiths License.

There is plenty of evidence on the interwebz that any idiot can assemble an AR- a little assistance from a mechanically savvy friend would be helpful, but not required.

 

[Fishbed77]

In my opinion:

AR-10: Buy it.

AR-15: Build it.

 

[Skribs]

There is plenty of evidence on the interwebz that any idiot can assemble an AR- a little assistance from a mechanically savvy friend would be helpful, but not required.

I tried to put in a drop-in trigger kit into a M&P pistol, and I ended up putting a hole in the trigger and ruining the safety return spring, requiring about a half an hour of a gunsmith's time to fix before he finished the kit for me. Please don't tell me that I'm less intelligent than an idiot because I am not mechanically savvy, and understand my limitations as far as building things is concerned.

Regarding the gas tube, so if I bought a complete 16" carbine, and wanted a 16" mid-length gas system (for whatever reason), I'd have to buy a new barrel as well as the gas system?

 

[ExAgoradzo]

Well, maybe I'm not AR level 100, but obviously my morning typing skills are:

I meant from the beginning that I want 308 style AR (I am saying it like this on purpose because if I end up buying a DPMS it is not technically an AR-10.).

What I want to know re: #1. Is if I buy a DMPS can I buy a AR upper and mags (although I think I know that one because AR only uses two other companies). So what I meant by 'families' is: who takes what brands, or simpler: who uses the most variety of stuff...or is it unlike the AR-15 where anybody's stuff is very similar. What are the companies that make entry level AR style 308s that I can later buy more mags for and swap out uppers with?

I guess my point with the 'affair' thing is that all this seems so much more complicated than do I want to buy a Browning or a Weatherby or a Ruger??? Once I get this gun and bring it home from the range, what will I need to take it apart and clean it? It seems like a whole new sport: but one in which I would like to put my feet into the water.

I appreciate the unanimity (for my purposes) on the discussion between DI and piston. Thanks,
Greg

 

[cfullgraf]

Regarding the gas tube, so if I bought a complete 16" carbine, and wanted a 16" mid-length gas system (for whatever reason), I'd have to buy a new barrel as well as the gas system?

Not necessarily. It depends on what parts were used to assemble the rifle. It should be stated in the rifle's specifications on what gas system is used.

 

[Skribs]

What I was asking is if I got a 16" with a carbine gas system, and wanted a 16" mid-length gas system (for whatever reason), would I have to buy a new barrel as well as gas system, or just the new gas system.

 

[cfullgraf]

Sorry, you would need a new barrel with the port drilled in the mid-length position and a new mid length gas tube. Assuming the two barrels use the same diameter gas block, you could reuse the gas block.

The hand guard may need replacing depending on what it is.

 

[mtrmn]

Well, maybe I'm not AR level 100, but obviously my morning typing skills are:

I meant from the beginning that I want 308 style AR (I am saying it like this on purpose because if I end up buying a DPMS it is not technically an AR-10.).

What I want to know re: #1. Is if I buy a DMPS can I buy a AR upper and mags (although I think I know that one because AR only uses two other companies). So what I meant by 'families' is: who takes what brands, or simpler: who uses the most variety of stuff...or is it unlike the AR-15 where anybody's stuff is very similar. What are the companies that make entry level AR style 308s that I can later buy more mags for and swap out uppers with?

I guess my point with the 'affair' thing is that all this seems so much more complicated than do I want to buy a Browning or a Weatherby or a Ruger??? Once I get this gun and bring it home from the range, what will I need to take it apart and clean it? It seems like a whole new sport: but one in which I would like to put my feet into the water.

I appreciate the unanimity (for my purposes) on the discussion between DI and piston. Thanks,
Greg

In 308 AR's- there is no possibility of putting an AR15 upper on the 308 lower and using 223 ammo on the 308 lower receiver assembly. You can swap over to other calibers like 243 etc by changing the upper. And the smaller-frame AR15 will not accept the larger 308 upper........

EXCEPT for the new Colt 901 or whatever the model number of that thing is. I figure there are many un-standardized parts on this one too. I haven't researched it enough to know much about it and I figure it's priced way out of my league in addition to being made out of unobtanium.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

Gas piston only offers an advantage if you do a lot of shooting with a suppressor. Otherwise not worth the complexity and proprietary parts. I prefer DI and will always stick to it.

Buy your first one, that way when you build the next one you will know what you like and don't like and you can build the perfect one from the ground up.

 

[Skribs]

Gas piston only offers an advantage if you do a lot of shooting with a suppressor.

I'd disagree with this, because there are other advantages. However, you are right, for the general layman it probably isn't worth it on an AR-15.

However, I have to ask - are there many piston .308 AR-type rifles? Because since the .308 AR-type rifles are all proprietary anyway, would this disadvantage of the piston system be negated in the larger platform?

 

[Jon_Snow]

What I want to know re: #1. Is if I buy a DMPS can I buy a AR upper and mags (although I think I know that one because AR only uses two other companies).

No, if you buy a DPMS pattern 308, you will need to buy DPMS pattern uppers. You can not use Armalite AR pattern uppers or magazines.

I guess my point with the 'affair' thing is that all this seems so much more complicated than do I want to buy a Browning or a Weatherby or a Ruger??? Once I get this gun and bring it home from the range, what will I need to take it apart and clean it?

Once, the whole thing is built, stripping and cleaning requires no tools. Push out two pins and the rifle breaks in half. The bolt carrier group slides out the back and now you have a semi-auto rifle that you can clean from the breech rather than the muzzle. That's a non-trivial bonus. Also, the whole things stores very easily when disassembled like that.

As for the build vs buy debate; it all depends on how comfortable you are with mechanical stuff. It actually boils down to two questions; buy/build the upper and buy/build the lower. Assemblying a stripped lower requires a hammer and some punches and can be done at the kitchen table (although it can be made easier with a couple of cheap dedicated tools). Assembling a stripped upper requires more equipment; a good vise, an action block, a barrel wrench, etc. Many people assemble their lower and buy an upper. What you do is your choice. I've built 3 ARs and 1 "AR style semi-auto 308"; I put all the lowers together myself but only built the uppers on two of them.

Cost may also be a factor. When I did my research, it was generally cheaper to BUY an upper than build one, even before factoring the cost of dedicated tools. That doesn't start to change until you get to the high end of things, heavy barrels in odd calibers. (One of the uppers I built sports a 24" bull barrel in 204 Ruger. I could have purchased one but for the same price I was able to get a Shilen barrel instead of the no-name DPMS barrel.)

In the end, it's up to you. Personally, I think anyone interested in the AR style should build at least 1 lower. You learn a lot about how the gun runs and what affects what. If you do decide to build the whole thing, I'd highly recommend you look at Mega Arms. Their Ma-Ten matched upper and lower sets are one of the few compatible with some DPMS and AR stuff, and the lower comes with the only parts that are different from an AR-15 already installed. That means you save some money because you can buy an AR-15 LPK (lower parts kit) much cheaper than an AR-10 LPK. Best of luck with whatever road you choose to go down.

 

[Skribs]

Wow, Jon. When I read what was required for the lower I was thinking "okay, beyond my capability, how about the upper...OH JEEZ."

Well, it looks like my only option is to buy a pre-built one and then maybe have a gunsmith install a few parts on it (i.e. to make it ambi) instead of doing the work myself. Sigh...

 

[Jon_Snow]

Skribs, one cool thing about ARs is that they are so common assembly instruction are on youtube. Go look at a video on assembling a lower and then decide if it's out of your comfort zone.