AR Trend or Fad?

[dispatch55126]

First, it was the 556, then replacement systems and now several other companies are producing complete gas-piston AR uppers and rifles

This is not a gas impingement vs. gas piston debate. The gas impingement system, while reliable, has always been looked at as the "weak point" in the AR. With several companies now offering gas piston uppers and platforms, do you think that this is a response to the shooting public and forums or do you think that future development is going back to this type of action?

 

[aftCG]

Personally I think it's in response to gun writers who spend more time behind a keyboard than they do pulling a trigger on dirty rifles, based on stories from a guy who has a cousin who knew someone who was in a safety situation directly resulting from his gas impingement system failing.
People love to spend money on equipment. Witness rifles at the range, bristling with lasers, flashlights, bayonet lugs and enough rail space than a roller coaster.

The old "craps where it eats" thing doesn't go away because you vent gas to a piston (which also gets dirty), and then to a mechanical rod system.

[/soapbox]

 

[HoosierQ]

I think we will see continued developement down both paths.

Lot's of people don't like Ruger (Bill Ruger anyway) but their piston AR offering with 3 30 round mags standard may well take what was a small niche and create a mainstream of it.

There will always be enough AR-15 purists that direct impingement gas systems will continue to sell. Conversely, there are enough direct impingement detractors that piston ARs may bring a number of those who are AR detractors into the fold. In other words, other than plastic stocks, the main thing AR detractors don't like is the gas system.

I don't think the piston AR is going to be a fad.

 

[iamkris]

I think the piston systems for ARs will hang around as a sub-set of all development but DI is here to stay as an integral part of the rifle. If I had to guess, I'd say that something less than 10-20% of rifle releases will be piston. I understand that it is fairly tricky to add a piston to this system...the geometry can cause significant bolt carrier tipping/wear. That said, if it is designed from the ground up, certainly can be successful.

The fact remains that for 99% of us, DI is just fine. Pistons offer zero advantage (and some disadvantages) for the highpower competitors amongst us, and most of us aren't high-speed, low-drag types that are burning through thousands of rounds a month on full-awesome-rock-and-roll where that "weak link" shows thorugh.

Don't get me wrong...I have many piston guns and I like them...just none of them are ARs.

 

[ArmedBear]

Piston systems are all over the place. They're only relatively new to the AR platform.

We'll be seeing more of them, simply because the AR lower is a common foundation for building a rifle these days (kind of like the surplus Mauser action once was).

We're also seeing other guns built on the AR lower, including bolt actions.

 

[sjohn26]

Animation for both systems

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7GTZ0DixqA

Cool illustration!

 

[Wes Janson]

A more interesting question may be to ask why it is that the gas piston operating system has come to virtually dominate all small arms development, leaving behind systems like the Kiraly delayed blowback locking principle.

 

[Eightball]

Yes, because I enjoy making what was designed to be a lighter weight rifle, and schlunking additional unnecessary weight on it when possible.

My DI system's been 100% reliable unless I really just thrash the darn thing, and my dad's AR has also been trouble-free.....as has every coworker of mine who have & use their ARs, and the coworker whose cousin's on a local SWAT team has also never heard of or complained about their ARs operational system--and they use theirs heavier than most anyone I know.

Sounds like yet again, gunrags have discovered a solution looking for a problem.

 

[ArmedBear]

A more interesting question may be to ask why it is that the gas piston operating system has come to virtually dominate all small arms development, leaving behind systems like the Kiraly delayed blowback locking principle.

That's true for high-pressure rounds like rifle rounds.

However, repeating shotgun development has essentially split between the gas-piston and the short-recoil systems, and continues in each direction. There's no real sign of either one going away.

 

[MCMXI]

They're only relatively new to the AR platform.

How about the AR-18/AR-180 ... that's a gas piston AR developed in the '60s.

Sounds like yet again, gunrags have discovered a solution looking for a problem.

You could argue that the DGI system was a "solution looking for a problem" when it replaced the M14.

I have two gas piston ARs, an AR-15 and an AR-10, and if I ever buy another AR, it'll be GP too.

 

[RP88]

the piston does not solve anything for the DI system when you put it on/in an AR. I really don't see the point in it.

 

[ArmedBear]

How about the AR-18/AR-180 ... that's a gas piston AR developed in the '60s.

It's not the AR platform. It is, however, one of the gas-piston systems that was around for a long time before.

 

[Grantman]

With several companies now offering gas piston uppers and platforms, do you think that this is a response to the shooting public and forums or do you think that future development is going back to this type of action?

I'd say future development will without doubt be steering toward gas piston ARs with ever increasing popularity. The fact of the matter is that DI, while certainly adequate in general, is not optimal as seen in American Special Operations Command decisions and the telling GP monopoly in contemporary (and historical monopoly with m16 exception) small arms design. Whoever can fill the gap between the pricier premium quality gp designs and the el cheapo gimmicks with a well designed and durable 'value' gp AR would look to eventually corner the market in my opinion.

 

[Frankl03]

I think the piston operated AR is a good development. I have a DI AR15 and a Sig 556 although not an AR it is piston operated. Take it out shooting and afterwards take out the bolt and carrier and you can hardly tell it was shot. Another words very clean on the inside. If I put 30-50 rounds through my AR and take out the bolt its dirty.

So I can see a place for a piston operated AR.

 

[Zak Smith]

Fad or trend? Could be both. There is certainly market demand for piston AR's, due to real or imagined issues. For my own use, I don't see how they could increase reliability of my rifles since they are 100% reliable outside of magazine or ammunition issues. However, in a dedicated suppressed upper, I believe they do have benefits.

 

[Evil Monkey]

The DI system has never been a "weak point" in the ar15 rifle. It's all marketing bull crap.

If there needs to be improvement to the ar15, then you start over with a whole new design.

Key changes are a new bolt design that improve locking lug strength and the area around the cam pin hole, and more space around the carrier. Pistons are a designers choice, either way doesn't matter.

More importantly, what is needed is fine tuning certain barrel lengths with different gas port locations and diameters/etc. You don't want a rifle having parts wear out prematurely due to improper tuning, like 16" barreled ar15's with the m4 carbine gas system. Those rifles are the exact reason the mid lengths started showing up.

I haven't been shown anything about how a piston makes a weapon more reliable or durable. Probably because that information doesn't exist and never will.

 

[ArmedBear]

If there needs to be improvement to the ar15, then you start over with a whole new design.

I think it's important to note that "AR-15" at this point refers to a spec for a lower receiver, and not much else.

You can buy countless versions of every part to put in it, and all sorts of uppers in different calibers and various operating systems.

There's demand for gas-piston rifles. Of course, some will be built on AR lowers.

As far as "starting over", well, as I see it, people are starting over every day. They just have the convenience of a standard lower that will fit existing stocks, etc., whereas in the past, every rifle needed its own special furniture, scope mounts, and everything else.

The AR offers some standardization, but only as a foundation.

 

[cameron.personal]

For my own use, I don't see how they could increase reliability of my rifles since they are 100% reliable outside of magazine or ammunition issues.

I agree with Zak I have never had an AR that failed due to the DI system.

Cameron

 

[Dravur]

oh goody, another DI vs GP debate.

hmmmm, on the one hand, I could go DI. Ive never had a problem with one, most people haven't. and it shoots the exact same bullet as a GP.

on the other hand I could spend twice as much or MORE on a GP system that keeps the bolt cleaner......

Twice as much money vs... a cleaner bolt.

or I could buy 2 DI uppers for the same price and just swap em out in the VERY unlikely scenario that I could actually get a DI system to stall.

is there a yawn button anywhere?

Or, you could buy whatever the heck you like and not worry about what the people on the interweb think.

So, unless you are a high speed, lo drag kind of guy with a buttload of cash, and getting ready for your trip to Iraq, you can go for the GP. But, if you are a poser, then you might as well bolt on the flashlight, laser, smoke grenade launcher, toothbrush holder, and bagel warmer and embrace your inner Mall Ninja.

Although, I must admit, if the GP systems were priced anywhere near the DI ones, I would probably buy one just for the novelty, but spending 2-3 times the price on something of dubious worth... meh... can't do it

 

[MCMXI]

This is not a gas impingement vs. gas piston debate.

Yeah right!! It's a pity that no one has actually tried to answer your question, an excellent question at that.

"With several companies now offering gas piston uppers and platforms, do you think that this is a response to the shooting public and forums or do you think that future development is going back to this type of action?"

Who's responsible for the GP trend? Were GP ARs initially developed by the likes of POF and others in the hope of securing large lucrative military contracts? Perhaps the cost of retrofitting or replacing hundreds of thousands of M4s was prohibitive and ultimately rejected by the military for that reason. From what I've read on this board, very few AR owners have GP models so it will be interesting to see where this ends up. I bet most here would choose a GP model over a DGI one if they didn't have to pay for it.

What other mainstream DGI rifles are out there? Off the top of my head I can think of many, many GP rifles but no DGI ones.

 

[taliv]

i blame HK for the current GP fad.

like zak, i don't think it's going away any time soon as there are some niches where GP is superior

What other mainstream DGI rifles are out there? Off the top of my head I can think of many, many GP rifles but no DGI ones.

so i suppose you think it's coincidence that the ONE DG gun out there has been the most successful rifle in US history with the longest service life...

 

[MCMXI]

so i suppose you think it's coincidence that the ONE DG gun out there has been the most successful rifle in US history with the longest service life...

I think the success (and appeal) of the AR platform has NOTHING to do with the DGI system ... put it that way.

 

[Tirod]

The problem with the DGI in the M16 is that it was developed with IMPROVED BALL POWDER as the propellant. The beanie weanies cut costs and mandated old dirty BALL. Hence, chrome bores, assists, etc etc etc.

It did point out that a light reciprocating bolt cannot guarantee a good performance envelope in field conditions. Main battle rifles to this point did not require or include a dust cover for the ejection port. The bolts were heavy enough to cock and lock, regardless of trash. For a view of the other end of that, check out a HK91. It will eat handfuls of wet gravel and fire, much like the AK47. They are both made to operate with poor maintenance - because the designers understood that was more important in a battle field environment. Only nations with great logistics and soldiers rotating in and out of battle can tolerate closely fitted firearms that require a large investment in cleaning time.

Gas pistons are here to stay and can certainly supplant the impingement bolt system. As said, the first one to become a standard at a decent price will own the market. As Colt has handed over the blueprints to the US Govt this last June 30, and DOD has already opened a survey into available over the counter weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if a piston 6.8 mm becomes a front runner - NATO be damned.

It solves three problems - expense, as all the lowers and some upper parts are retained. Two, it offers a better caliber with superior ballistics to the varmint grade chuck killer, .223. Three, it ensures positive bolt cycling with an adjustable gas port for dirty conditions - something previously available before on the M14,and common on other battle rifles.

Mainstreaming the cleaning procedures across the board, a gas piston battle rifle fits in better at the squad level with other firearms, which are - gas piston! After all, if Uncle Sam keeps using dirty old Ball Powder, why not optimize the weapon to function with it - and reduce stoppages, soldier discontent, and continuing complaints?

It's not the rifle itself - Stoner did a nice job - it's what you feed it and who uses it. World wide, gas piston is a better deal. Having cleaned roller locked HK's, M16's, M14's, M1's, and others, I like bolts that always cycle and stay clean. So if I had the money, I'd get the Ruger in 6.8mm with three 30 shot magpuls, and call it good.

In "honor" of old Bill, may he rest in peace.

 

[CornCod]

In recent years the AR-15 trend has been a Tsunami among gun owners. Back in 1989 when I bought my first and only AR people would look at me funny at the range. Now, everyone and his brother has one. I believe the gas piston and dgi systems will continue to exist side-by-side for a long time. The wealthier firearms enthusiasts, SWAT teams and commando-type units will get the piston guns. The poorer firearms hobbyists and ordinary grunts in the trenches will stay with DGI.

 

[ArmedBear]

do you think that future development is going back to this type of action?"

I thought I was answering that, but I'll put it more directly.

Every other major semiauto centerfire rifle is a piston system. Every new design recently has been.

There's no sign that DI is the direction of current gun designers.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be, just that it really isn't. I like it. The AR is about as close to a bolt-action as a semiauto gets, WRT cleaning and maintenance.

What the future holds? That's anyone's guess.