AR vs. Masada? (read, please)
- Thread starter Eightball
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Really?
And when you get your pair, will you then be able to stand up to your wife and inform her that you're getting a new rifle?
And also I'm curious..... where did you find that you could buy a pair anyway? Most guys have to grow them.
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LoadedDrum
Member
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- Dec 7, 2004
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- 612
Yes I have three highend rifles with QC barrels. They all hold zero well enough that the change in zero is unnoticeable with in 150 yrds. Past that and things become more pronounced. It has been my experience that just swapping uppers instead of barrels leads to no change in zero.
How about you? What is your experience with QC barrels in high end guns? or are you just speculating based on factory stuff?
none, that's why i asked. i own my share of nice rifles, but none QC. i've always wanted an EDM Arms windrunner (back in my sights since i just sold my barrett 50bmg, and have some change in my pocket again) and an AMP DSR-1 (sadly, unavailable). i almost bought a left-hand tubb2k 2 years ago too.
i wasn't really interested in any of those guns for the QC ability, but I was planning to take them down and reassemble regularly. I would have been extremely disappointed if i had to rezero every time i uncased them.
maybe we should start a new thread. which 3 do you own? what different barrels do you have for them? please PM me if you'd rather discuss privately. thanks.
i wasn't really interested in any of those guns for the QC ability, but I was planning to take them down and reassemble regularly. I would have been extremely disappointed if i had to rezero every time i uncased them.
maybe we should start a new thread. which 3 do you own? what different barrels do you have for them? please PM me if you'd rather discuss privately. thanks.
DMK
Member
On the AR15 and all aftermarket sights for that and this platform, the elevation adjustments for zero are made at the front sight. The Masada's front sight is integral to the upper so you can't zero two sets of sights for different barrels. You could swap optics, but then you wouldn't have zeroed back up iron sights.
The AR is much more versatile this way. Magpul should have serial numbered the lower. Then you could buy two lowers (one 7.62 and one 5.56) at your gunshop and swap entire pre-zeroed uppers at will for different barrel lengths, profiles or whatever.
I can't see the point of having swappable lowers.
theoretically, it would be pretty useful. i could have one lower set up with a prone-style stock and match type trigger, both adjusted to me, and another lower set up with a standard, more reliable trigger and collapsible stock and ergo grip.
a match grade 16" barrel, upper, and something like a short dot or acog is pretty dual-use friendly
and carrying another lower would be lighter and take less space than carrying another upper.
practically, i doubt i'd want to carry an extra of either.
a match grade 16" barrel, upper, and something like a short dot or acog is pretty dual-use friendly
and carrying another lower would be lighter and take less space than carrying another upper.
practically, i doubt i'd want to carry an extra of either.
tpe187
Member
Shot one a couple months ago. Very neat rifle. Great Concept.
The Concept: Take the best, currently proven technology in all areas, ie Barrel, Fire Control Group, and newest polymer and mold them into a rifle that everyone has been asking for. Not bad for a company that has 15 employees
Lower vs Upper serialized. The upper on this design is where the money is. You wouldn't want to swap uppers because it would be too costly. The lower takes an AR15 trigger, encased in a metal housing so any standard AR trigger will work. From what I could tell, it just uses some sleeves to keep them in the housing. So, if you want a lower that has an AK system of retention, pop two pins to seperate the lower from the upper, slide the buttstock up and out, remove a couple pins for the FCG and your done. The lower is molded Polymer and I would be surprised if it cost $100 for different lowers.
The barrels are standard AR barrels. The barrel nut is obviously different and uses an interupted thread and locking tab. The gas system replaces the FSB on the barrel and your done. So, again, all those proven, accurate barrels out there can easily be modded to work on this system. Want a 24" Krieger for long range work, no problem. All those guys developing 6.8 barrels, no problem. Pretty good idea, don't reinvent the wheel, just adapt to it.
The front hand guard comes in multiple lengths and is easily removed and replaced. Rails are easily added as well, where you want them, so you don't have to have a lot of extra weight.
I don't know too much about the gas system to comment on. The bolt carrier is very similar to the AR180, again a proven system and some might even mistake it for an AR15 bolt at first glance.
Buttstock is very sturdy and doesn't move when locked in place. LOP and the adjustable cheekpiece is nice and sturdy as well. You can also drop in a precision stock if you want. The prototype I saw looked pretty nice. It can be fired and charged when folded. The charging handle is ambidextrious as well. Want it on the left, push it through. Want it on the right, push it back. Pretty simple.
My shooting was fairly limited and just involved close in work, but I was impressed with the system. No Lube and about 6 mags worth of M855 and no failures after that particular gun had gone about 2500 rounds in demos and has seen lots of surpressed fire.
If MAGPUL can deliver it to guys at between 1200 and 1400 I think they will have a winner on their hands. If nothing else, it will make the market more competitve, which is a good thing.
Like anything, I bet there will be some problems that are encountered when it gets fielded, and its exposed to more environments, different ammo and some rough handling. It will be interesting to see how the FN SCAR comes out and at what price point.
I hope to get one of the first ones coming out, then I will run it through its paces. I have absolute confidence that MAGPUL will make it right if something is wrong. I don't know that this will be the one rifle you should own. I mean consider that you can get a decent AK for $500 right now and you can get a decent AR for about $850 and you've got two proven systems for about the cost of the Massada and don't have to switch anything. If you are a fan of rifles, I do think this will be one you have to own. I hope these get out quickly, who knows what the future will bring.
Tom
The Concept: Take the best, currently proven technology in all areas, ie Barrel, Fire Control Group, and newest polymer and mold them into a rifle that everyone has been asking for. Not bad for a company that has 15 employees
Lower vs Upper serialized. The upper on this design is where the money is. You wouldn't want to swap uppers because it would be too costly. The lower takes an AR15 trigger, encased in a metal housing so any standard AR trigger will work. From what I could tell, it just uses some sleeves to keep them in the housing. So, if you want a lower that has an AK system of retention, pop two pins to seperate the lower from the upper, slide the buttstock up and out, remove a couple pins for the FCG and your done. The lower is molded Polymer and I would be surprised if it cost $100 for different lowers.
The barrels are standard AR barrels. The barrel nut is obviously different and uses an interupted thread and locking tab. The gas system replaces the FSB on the barrel and your done. So, again, all those proven, accurate barrels out there can easily be modded to work on this system. Want a 24" Krieger for long range work, no problem. All those guys developing 6.8 barrels, no problem. Pretty good idea, don't reinvent the wheel, just adapt to it.
The front hand guard comes in multiple lengths and is easily removed and replaced. Rails are easily added as well, where you want them, so you don't have to have a lot of extra weight.
I don't know too much about the gas system to comment on. The bolt carrier is very similar to the AR180, again a proven system and some might even mistake it for an AR15 bolt at first glance.
Buttstock is very sturdy and doesn't move when locked in place. LOP and the adjustable cheekpiece is nice and sturdy as well. You can also drop in a precision stock if you want. The prototype I saw looked pretty nice. It can be fired and charged when folded. The charging handle is ambidextrious as well. Want it on the left, push it through. Want it on the right, push it back. Pretty simple.
My shooting was fairly limited and just involved close in work, but I was impressed with the system. No Lube and about 6 mags worth of M855 and no failures after that particular gun had gone about 2500 rounds in demos and has seen lots of surpressed fire.
If MAGPUL can deliver it to guys at between 1200 and 1400 I think they will have a winner on their hands. If nothing else, it will make the market more competitve, which is a good thing.
Like anything, I bet there will be some problems that are encountered when it gets fielded, and its exposed to more environments, different ammo and some rough handling. It will be interesting to see how the FN SCAR comes out and at what price point.
I hope to get one of the first ones coming out, then I will run it through its paces. I have absolute confidence that MAGPUL will make it right if something is wrong. I don't know that this will be the one rifle you should own. I mean consider that you can get a decent AK for $500 right now and you can get a decent AR for about $850 and you've got two proven systems for about the cost of the Massada and don't have to switch anything. If you are a fan of rifles, I do think this will be one you have to own. I hope these get out quickly, who knows what the future will bring.
Tom
I disagree.
You can slowly buy parts to build an AR each month, or you can just sock away some money each month then buy an XCR or Masada.
Either way, you get a fully functional rifle at the same time.
I like the looks and concepts of both the XCR and Masada. I'm just trying to decide which I want to save for. The Masada isn't even out yet, but it is intriguing my interest the most.
Does anyone know what the length is on the Masada with the stock folded (16" barrel)? In Michigan, the 16" XCR needs to be registered as a pistol. Just curious if this is the same.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
The Magpul people have mentioned that the length of a 14.5" barrel with stock folded is 25". That should make the length of the 16" folded right at 26.5". That includes the muzzle device though (a Phantom).
I've looked at the XCR and I'm really down to the Masada or SCAR now.
So people want a rifle that they have not shot, from a company that has never produced a firearm--a rifle that has had no military testing or combat exposure? Now I know why Ad execs are paid so well. Will Magpul even be around after investing so much in this rifle program if it finds no military or LE contracts? What if civilian sales are cut off 3 months into production by legislation? Where are you going to buy spare parts?
Based on this, people would pick that over the time tested AR? At this point I'm sticking with the known benefits and weaknesses of the AR. Thousands of replacement parts will be available for the rest of my lifetime.
The SCAR--a rifle produced by FN (who actually is in the business of producing firearms and not plastic doohickies), won an open bid contract by SOCOM, and has been in testing for THREE YEARS undergoing numerous "revisions." It's just nearing readiness. The Masada has so much more to prove.
Based on this, people would pick that over the time tested AR? At this point I'm sticking with the known benefits and weaknesses of the AR. Thousands of replacement parts will be available for the rest of my lifetime.
The SCAR--a rifle produced by FN (who actually is in the business of producing firearms and not plastic doohickies), won an open bid contract by SOCOM, and has been in testing for THREE YEARS undergoing numerous "revisions." It's just nearing readiness. The Masada has so much more to prove.
LaEscopeta
Member
All true and all valid points. And there was a time when all the same points were true and valid about the AR-15. And a time when the same points were true and valid about all FN firearms. Even a time when they were true and valid about J.M. Browning designed firearms. Not saying the new rifle from Magpul (if it ever materializes from vaporware to a real product people buy) will end up in the same league as AR-15 or any other successful firearm. I’m saying I don’t know. And no one else knows either.
Who knows? Magpul is taking a huge risk. Even if their rifle is a good one, it may never generate the sales required to pay back the initial investment, let alone make a profit. The rifle project could crash and burn, creating product liability lawsuits that bankrupts Magpul. But of course some people and some companies take these huge risks, and because some of them pull it off we have advances in technology. Advances we have today our fathers could not have dreamed of when they were kids, and advances in the future we can not dream of today.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I don't know what thread you are reading; but I just reread the entire thread and didn't see one person say they would trade their AR for a Masada.
No question that Magpul has a great deal to prove with this, and I don't doubt there will be teething issues. The thing is Magpul also has a great reputation for standing behind their products and fixing problems. In some ways, I think Magpul may even have a communications advantage. The founder of the company and the guy with his money on the line is a Recon Marine who knows what he wants in a rifle and is building it. That allows for a much more streamlined design cycle then end users telling a committee what they want, who then tells FN, who then tells the engineers and designers, etc.
mrmeval
Member
10-Ring
Member
Living in the People's Republic, this is more an excercise in futility than anything else, but I wouldn't mind adding a MASADA to my collection esp. but I wonder what it would like in CA friendly configuration
I'm afraid that that is a too simplistic way of looking at the problem. A better analogy is this:
You could have a 1960s era pickup that has been in continuous production, with continuous revisions, made by numerous well respected manufacturers, that runs well and has a good track record, with thousands of spare parts available, made by dozens of manufacturers. There are millions of them in circulation.
Or, you could buy a 2008 pickup, from a company that has never made a vehicle (they've only made bumpers). The '08 pickup has never been tested outside of the company--but it looks very cool and has all the features you've ever wanted in a pickup. Unfortunately there is no large market for the pickup, and a major group of consumers (most drivers have never heard of this company outside of the pickup forums) may only be able to purchase this vehicle for a few months. The company may not be around 5 years from now for warranty support on the rifle's proprietary components. Also, this pickup will cost 3 times what you could make the older pickup for, meaning I could have 3 1960s pickups for every '08 pickup.
Oh--and it's the last pickup you or your decendants may ever own. Choose wisely.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Curare, that is a bad analogy in so many ways. First of all, Magpul has done design work on firearms previous to the Masada (Kriss SMG for example).
Second, the Masada uses actual AR barrels, an FAL-style upper receiver, and an AR180 action (which is also used by the L85, G36, etc.). From the perspective of its action and function, it really uses technology and concepts that have been around for awhile and have been used in several weapons. About the only unique aspect is combining all of these features into a single weapon.
Third, as to a large market I believe Bushmaster was selling something around 60k/year ARs in 1999 prior to the "Y2K" hype which was a peak year for them IIRC. Magpul has a potential market twice that big just on AR15.com before you even consider anywhere else they have gotten exposure - and judging by the 45-page thread in New Products and the numerous posts in Magpul's Industry forum there, there is a bit of interest.
Fourth, if Magpul meets the anticipated Spring 2008 release date, you would have at least a year to purchase the product before a new Congress and President could be elected. Not to mention a major Supreme Court decision on the issue long before that year ran out.
Fifth, Magpul has already existed as a company for almost a decade and has had a sterling reputation for customer service. Certainly that is no guarantee. You can look at Winchester who existed for over 100 years and no longer exists; but they aren't as tenative as you suggest.
Sixth, your cost analogy is way out of line. As I already pointed out earlier in thread, just the upper receiver for a monolithic rail .223 semi-auto with an easy-change barrel (albeit still with tools) costs $1,489 - about $89 more than the projected price of an entire Masada rifle which in addition to that features a no-tool barrel change, ambidextrous controls, drop-in fire control group, folding & collapsing stock with adjustable cheek rest with storage, folding front sight, gas piston operation and rails where you want them. The MSRP also comes in about $100 less than competitor rifles such as the Robinson Arms XCR (which Gunbroker currently has 3 of selling between $1500-1650) and we all know that rifles frequently sell below MSRP.
To put it in terms of your analogy - a top of the line 2008 pickup has many, many features that a 1960 pickup isn't going to have. Arguing that the 2008 costs three times as much misses the cost involved in adding those features to a 1960 pickup.
Last but not least, your final point is true only to the extent that gunowners sit out the elections and let it happen. Given the great progress we have made in the past 10 years, I'd be surprised to see it go even worse than 1994 so quickly. So color me a little skeptical on that point.
Second, the Masada uses actual AR barrels, an FAL-style upper receiver, and an AR180 action (which is also used by the L85, G36, etc.). From the perspective of its action and function, it really uses technology and concepts that have been around for awhile and have been used in several weapons. About the only unique aspect is combining all of these features into a single weapon.
Third, as to a large market I believe Bushmaster was selling something around 60k/year ARs in 1999 prior to the "Y2K" hype which was a peak year for them IIRC. Magpul has a potential market twice that big just on AR15.com before you even consider anywhere else they have gotten exposure - and judging by the 45-page thread in New Products and the numerous posts in Magpul's Industry forum there, there is a bit of interest.
Fourth, if Magpul meets the anticipated Spring 2008 release date, you would have at least a year to purchase the product before a new Congress and President could be elected. Not to mention a major Supreme Court decision on the issue long before that year ran out.
Fifth, Magpul has already existed as a company for almost a decade and has had a sterling reputation for customer service. Certainly that is no guarantee. You can look at Winchester who existed for over 100 years and no longer exists; but they aren't as tenative as you suggest.
Sixth, your cost analogy is way out of line. As I already pointed out earlier in thread, just the upper receiver for a monolithic rail .223 semi-auto with an easy-change barrel (albeit still with tools) costs $1,489 - about $89 more than the projected price of an entire Masada rifle which in addition to that features a no-tool barrel change, ambidextrous controls, drop-in fire control group, folding & collapsing stock with adjustable cheek rest with storage, folding front sight, gas piston operation and rails where you want them. The MSRP also comes in about $100 less than competitor rifles such as the Robinson Arms XCR (which Gunbroker currently has 3 of selling between $1500-1650) and we all know that rifles frequently sell below MSRP.
To put it in terms of your analogy - a top of the line 2008 pickup has many, many features that a 1960 pickup isn't going to have. Arguing that the 2008 costs three times as much misses the cost involved in adding those features to a 1960 pickup.
Last but not least, your final point is true only to the extent that gunowners sit out the elections and let it happen. Given the great progress we have made in the past 10 years, I'd be surprised to see it go even worse than 1994 so quickly. So color me a little skeptical on that point.
RobZ71LM7
Member
Given the problems and lack of quality control they had with the P-Mag, I'll be waiting until they've been on the market a while.
HorseSoldier
Member
My LMT Monolithic Rail Platform seems to keep zero well enough that, using my ACOG, I can make consistent hits out at 500 and 600 on steel chest plates with a different barrel than I zeroed the scope with.
Magpul also has a proven track record of promising products on timetables that are never met or never even produced. As fas as the communication ability, in my personal experience it is a joke... they have a near zero record of responding to any inquiry that would result in a "we don't know" or "we'd rather not answer that right now" response.
Magpul has a lot of fans because they are able to produce quality products, but they tend to make promises they can't keep and their communications, i.e. customer service is laughable.
Am I the only one that waited for YEARS for their new stocks to finally hit the market (of those that actually DID hit the market) after being told repeatedly soon, soon, soon???
david_the_greek
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- Nov 2, 2005
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- 533
well by the time I save up enough money for one, they'll hopefully be out and have proven themselves a bit. I think its a neat looking rifle with some darn good concepts. I don't understand why some people seem to be so hostile towards its, any company trying to expand out options is a good thing. Magpull seems to make equipment and products that are of good quality and are based on what shooters want. More EBR's for everyone! yay!
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Speaking of cutting them a little slack... when you have a product (AR15) lower that is sold by over two dozen manufacturers and every one of them milling with their own specs for how it should be done, a little thing like designing a magazine that works with flawless reliability in every one of those lowers is a bit more complex than putting five parts together.
Magpul did some extensive testing; put out a magazine that apparently worked flawlessly in actual GI M4s; but had some issues in aftermarket AR lowers. They refined the mold in April 2007 and then a final fix in July 2007. They replaced every mag body free of charge instead of blaming the lower manufacturers. They even did the whole thing out in the open on the AR15.com forum which is pretty rough and tumble on these kinds of things.
For what it is worth, they aren't the first manufacturer to face that problem with AR mags. The much vaunted H&K High Reliability Magazine is still suffering from teething problems (beyond just the aftermarket AR issue) several years after its release and supposedly H&K knows a thing or two about firearms manufacturing as well. Should we assume that because H&K had problems building a five-part magazine, they can't build a firearm? For that matter, should we make a short list of the many magazine manufacturers who have run into the same issue with aftermarket AR lowers (CProducts, Orlite, Thermold, SA80 surplus mags, Taiwanese surplus mags, etc.)?
Personally, I've got money set aside for twin Masadas and I'll have no problems with buying them the moment they are released for production. If they do have troubles, I have confidence Magpul will make it right. I can certainly understand why others might want to wait until the inevitable teething issues with a new firearm are resolved and I don't blame them; but for me I feel confident in Magpul's level of service.
Like your earlier analogy though, I don't think this one is well-informed.
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