FN FS2000 vs PS90 vs Sig 556 vs AR vs Masada

[Z-Michigan]

I really like the concept of the PS90, only thing keeping me from buying it is the price. I hate buying anything I can't get the cost out of, wether I plan on selling it or not. The 5.7 cartridge is weak sauce in comparison to 5.56, but what platform offers 50 round standard mags in a platform that small and handy? Besides, no one complained about the energy/performance of the 17 hmr when it came out. As far as the standard sights go, agreed they are pretty weak, which is why you should get the tri rail and put on what you like.

The 17 HMR is intended for squirrels and gophers. No one sells it for self-defense. I would rate it a good SD round if zombie squirrels are a worry. Step up to the 5.7x28mm and zombie groundhogs should be in danger.

The comment about caliber adaptability on the XCR and ACR is good, but XCR caliber conversion kits run something like $500, not far from just buying a new AR (and as much or more than a new AR upper with barrel). I like the looks of both of them, but they will be (ACR) or are (XCR) pricier than the AR options that you can buy today.

 

[Well-Armed Lamb]

If you want a shooter, a Sig 556 or an AR. Stock up on AR mags.

If you're collector-minded, however, go PS90. The reason I say this is: notice the proliferation of US-guns-flooding-Mexico media stories? Two weapons, without fail, are mentioned in every single one. These weapons are the Five-seveN pistol and the .50 BMG rifle. For the Five-seveN, the media is hitting the "cop killer bullet" angle, giving that as the reason the pistol is so popular in Mexico. (For some reason, they never mention the restrictions on ammunition enabling that feature, probably because it'd spoil their angle.) The .50 BMG is, of course, the Lightning Bolt of Doom, and I've read several articles stating it's been used in several high-profile assassinations of Mexican government officials. (Annoyingly, the American media coverage of Mexico being as dreadful as it is, the only time I've ever seen this reported is in the stories with a pro-ban slant. It's as if the media thinks that massive drug wars with the potential to lead the country to our immediate south into an out-and-out civil war couldn't conceivably be of any interest to us.)

I think these stories are laying groundwork. We've seen, again and again, the demonization of particular weapons used to prepare the ground for hoped-for legislation to ban (and, for the ATF, increased funding to better fight) those *particular* nasty, bad, evil, guns. I suspect that the ban-'em-all crowd is learning from their mistakes. Popular guns have a lot of defenders, because people use them in all sorts of ways. Look for the gun banners to agitate against weapons with a relatively small constituency -- i.e., *guns that not a lot of people own.* Expensive guns shooting expensive ammunition are a prime target. They'll be going after the 5.7x28 mm and the .50 BMG -- and they'll be hoping that if they keep a narrow focus, most mainstream gun owners won't be too annoyed.

So, if you want a PS90 or a .50 at some point, you might want to buy soon.

(I like shooting the PS90, but its magazines are annoying to load and the sights flat-out stink. It is a fun plinker, though, I'll give it that.)

 

[shep854]

My solution to this dilemma was a Kel-Tec SU-16C. I also want to build an M16A1 civ clone. I figure that once I get the lower receiver (the "gun" part), I can pick up the rest of the parts at leisure and assemble them.

For the undecided, I hear Saiga makes some good rifles.

 

[benEzra]

I'd suggest a 16" AR with all the bells and whistles and a nice optic, and use the money you save over the FS2000 to buy plenty of magazines, and ammunition (it's not going to get any cheaper, the way metals prices are going). You could also get a spare bolt, firing pin, extractor spring, etc. with the spare change.

Ammunition for the PS90 is always going to be rare and expensive compared to .223/5.56x45mm, the FS2000 doesn't have much of a track record yet, and I have heard that the Sig 556 is fantastically well made but rather heavy even without optics.

If the Masada were already on the market, it'd be in the running, but if you get an AR now and have the opportunity to buy a Masada later, the magazines and ammunition you buy for the AR will work with both guns.

 

[Coronach]

If the Masada were already on the market, it'd be in the running, but if you get an AR now and have the opportunity to buy a Masada later, the magazines and ammunition you buy for the AR will work with both guns.

BINGO!

When the Masada concept was first publicized, I was torn between completing a few AR builds or keeping my one AR and waiting on the Masada. The current situation (economy unstable, Dems looking at a victory, Masada/ACR starting to do the usual Bushmaster/Magpul "it will be a few months" dance) has led me to not hold my breath on the ACR and to complete the AR builds now. If I can get an ACR that doesn't suck later, great. But I'll have some ARs that don't suck in the meantime.

Mike

 

[trbon8r]

Another thing to chew on, is that with a built up AR lower receiver there are a world of options out there.

If somehow the production of new EBRs were banned, I could envision some smart company coming out with a redesigned upper that is totally different than anything we have seen in the AR world in terms of an operating system, yet is compatible with the thousands of AR lowers that are out there. Picture if you will, a newly designed upper with upgrades to some of the minor quirks in the AR system. Possibly something with a redesigned bolt, barrel extension, and a new gas system. Yet this brand new design would fit perfectly on a standard AR lower. Picture sort of an XCR upper that is compatible with a standard AR lower.

Even if a ban were to happen I think there will still be quite a bit of development in the world of AR compatible uppers. If they can make .50 BMG uppers that fit on a standard AR lower, a newly designed 5.56 AR upper shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

 

[Coronach]

You assume that any future ban will be like the last one, and allow production and use of new uppers. I would say that this is a dangerous assumption.

Mike

 

[trbon8r]

You assume that any future ban will be like the last one, and allow production and use of new uppers. I would say that this is a dangerous assumption.

I would say the odds are better than even money that any future ban would not include a ban on new uppers. I don't claim to have a crystal ball that can forecast this with any certainty, but if I had to bet I think we will have a good supply of uppers for years to come.

 

[Kind of Blued]

You've GOT to have a decent AR. Even a plain jane 20" Standard A2 is a beautiful tool. One of these and a dolled-up carbine can both be had for about the price of the FS2000.

After that, I think a FAL or an M1A is absolutely necessary, but we're talkin' poodleshooters here.

 

[silentpoet]

I'll have to see an AR with a better stock before I am convinced to buy one. None of the ones I have looked at with the standard 6 position stock have seemed right to me. There is a gunshow coming up here in June and maybe there I will get a chance to try one out then.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I would say the odds are better than even money that any future ban would not include a ban on new uppers.

Go read HR1022. If something similar to that passes then it will pretty much outlaw the sale of all AR accessories.

You might lose a lot of money on your bet.

It outlaws "A conversion kit" which is defined as:

Conversion Kit- The term `conversion kit' means any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a firearm into a semiautomatic assault weapon, and any combination of parts from which a semiautomatic assault weapon can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

Any threaded barrel is on that list, among many many other things.

Be careful assuming it will all work out OK.

 

[trbon8r]

Go read HR1022. If something similar to that passes then it will pretty much outlaw the sale of all AR accessories.

You might lose a lot of money on your bet.

I've read 1022, and am not assuming anything, in fact quite the opposite.

The hacks in D.C. can propose virtually anything, but what matters is the finished product. Bear in mind that by the time most bills are amended dozens of times over, and compromises are made; the final product rarely resembles what was initially proposed. If the past is an indication, the antis have usually shown a distinct lack of creativity.

Like I said, I don't have a crystal ball, but my money is still on parts such as uppers being available for the foreseeable future. All I was trying to say to the OP was that should things play out this way, it wouldn't surprise me if in spite of a ban there would still be further development in AR compatible uppers that we can't even imagine at this time. If gun makers are prevented by law from selling a newly designed weapon system, it would only make sense that they would put R&D money into modding and updating the AR. If it doesn't go this way and parts are banned as well, the OP would still have an AR which is a perfectly capable weapon anyway.

I do agree with the sentiment of not taking anything for granted. I've already bought what I need in terms of weapons, mags, spare parts, and then some. Write letters, call your congress critter, and hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

 

[Tomac]

Sorry, gentlemen, I've got to play Devil's advocate here in defense of the PS90. First of all, it wasn't designed to compete with or replace the 5.56 for frontline combat any more than any pistol-caliber carbine. It's a PDW (personal defense weapon) and in that light and as a suvival cartridge it does have some advantages. It's very short/manueverable (26" OAL) and can be aimed/fired effectively w/one hand (5.56 rifles?), is easily fired from prone (5.56 rifles?), is fully ambidextrous (5.56 rifles?), ammo weighs half as much as 9mm or 5.56 so twice as much can be carried for the same weight, has mild muzzle blast and no muzzle flash (5.56 rifles?), 50rds before reloading and quality 5.7 ammo is actually cheaper ($.35/rd delivered) than some quality 5.56 ammo nowadays. Yes, both the factory ringsights suck but then it's very easy to replace them w/the optic of your choice (I use the Aimpoint ML3). Having the FN Five-seveN pistol that fires the same rd for simplified logistics is just icing on the cake. Just my $.02 worth.
Tomac

 

[24kshooter]

From you question I recommend you identify your goal (s) and get focused on it (them). As mentioned, you have niche rifles mixed with everyday workhorses. What are you trying to do ? I also assume you have a 30 cal battle rifle or two stuck away - if not I suggest you are asking the wrong question.

 

[ny32182]

If you are starting from zero, in my opinion, you should buy at least two high quality AR15's (a carbine and a rifle) before you even think about buying any of the current or proposed "toys" out there. That is the platform with millions and millions in circulation, with parts available from a huge number of companies, and will remain that way longer than anything else.

"The stock isn't right"? I don't understand. If you just don't like the ergonomics of the standard style carbine stock, there are a million good options out there for putting something on that is more to your liking. See the paragraph above. That is a total non-issue.

Once you are into the "toy" market, the XCR is peerless, and here is the kicker: You can actually buy it.

 

[MarcusWendt]

I toy with this same issue daily. For me it's between the 556 and the AR. These two are the most affordable for me. I am a huge fan of Sig and everything I hear about this rifle from actual owners is great.

On the other hand as numerous posters have suggested, for the price of...

AR parts are everywhere. In a real SHTF scenario you'd have the best chance of making repairs and or replacing your AR over any other weapon. You'd already be familiar with the system god forbid you had to pick one up from a fallen troop.

My heart wants a 556, but my brain tells me to get an AR.

I already own a M1A standard so I'm covered in .308

If I thought 556 rifles would be available aplenty I'd buy the 556 first, but I'm leaning more toward the AR now, and if I can, in time, I'll buy a 556.

 

[Jason_G]

It's very short/manueverable (26" OAL) and can be aimed/fired effectively w/one hand (5.56 rifles?)

It is very short, too short IMO, except for some very specific roles. Unless I knew I was going to be in cramped spaces, I'd pass. The PS90 makes me feel like I'm scrunched up when I bring it up to the shoulder. From a resting position, I can shoulder and bring up the sights of most full length rifles much faster than I can with the PS90. The addition of optics can make it even more cumbersome depending on whether they add height to the rifle. I think folks assume maneuverability because the thing is small, but IMO it is very cumbersome to aim compared to almost every standard battle rifle I've handled. Not knocking the PS90, it's size is perfect for what its intended role is, but it's a very specialized role, and the thing doesn't handle like a well balanced standard rifle does.

is easily fired from prone (5.56 rifles?)

Surely you aren't saying that a standard battle rifle can't be effectively used in the prone position are you? Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

[5.7] has mild muzzle blast and no muzzle flash (5.56 rifles?)

You can buy ammo that uses powder other than what's used in NATO surplus ammo and have little to no flash in pretty much any caliber. The blast thing is a definite trade-off. Less recoil usually equates to a less powerful round, so pick your poison.

Again not, knocking the PS90, just reiterating to the OP that it is a very specialized weapon for very specialized roles, and wouldn't make a very versatile gun IMO.

Jason

 

[Tomac]

1) It's not too short for me (I'm 6'1") and while I didn't care for bullpups until I first handled a PS90 I find it faster on-target than any other rifle I've handled and keeping the weight closer in towards the body reduces shooter fatigue. The shorter length does make it more manueverable in tight spaces.
2) The PS90 has no large magazine protruding under it thus making it easier to shoot from prone.
3) The PS90 has no muzzle flash regardless of factory ammo used (reloads are another thing altogether) so no special effort has to be made selecting ammo for that characteristic. As an experiment I discovered I could fire 10rds from the PS90 w/o hearing protection before I experience discomfort. Inside an enclosed space the muzzle blast from the PS90 would be far more tolerable than from an AR.
I agree it's a specialized weapon that's not for every person or every application. However, for my particular needs nothing else comes close.
Tomac

 

[TexasRifleman]

It's not too short for me, I find the PS90 ergonomics to be wonderful.

I find that when I go to the range or general varmint/critter shooting it's the first thing I grab.

50 rounds is really nice and I like the little bag that hangs underneath to catch my empty brass.

The sighting system isn't really that bad in my opinion, keeping in mind the intent of the rifle. I have the TL2 light/laser combo and that works great at night in the above mentioned varmint/critter role.

That said, the 5.7 is just too weak for reliable stopping power in a defense situation plain and simple. I think the round is great, I reload it and I shoot the heck out of it. I am not however naive enough to think that it is a good man stopper in it's current form.

But, it's one of the most just plain "fun to shoot" guns I've ever owned and if I had it to do over again I'd buy another without a second thought.

 

[Jason_G]

It's not too short for me (I'm 6'1") and while I didn't care for bullpups until I first handled a PS90 I find it faster on-target than any other rifle I've handled and keeping the weight closer in towards the body reduces shooter fatigue. The shorter length does make it more manueverable in tight spaces.

Maybe I'm just old school, being raised on hunting rifles, but the PS90 is just awkward to me, and I am a little shorter than you. Obviously different strokes for different folks.

The PS90 has no large magazine protruding under it thus making it easier to shoot from prone.

I understand, but unless you are shooting high (i.e. out of spec) capacity magazines, most conventional battle rifles can be fired from prone without issue.

The PS90 has no muzzle flash regardless of factory ammo used (reloads are another thing altogether) so no special effort has to be made selecting ammo for that characteristic.

Isn't there only one supplier of 5.7 ammo out there? How much is a box of ammo? I should hope there is no flash.

As an experiment I discovered I could fire 10rds from the PS90 w/o hearing protection before I experience discomfort

Please don't do that to your ears again.

Inside an enclosed space the muzzle blast from the PS90 would be far more tolerable than from an AR.

Probably so.

However, for my particular needs nothing else comes close.

Well then you have the perfect rifle for you it seems, but most folks' needs would be quite different I'd assume. I wouldn't mind having one, but it would be a plinker/conversation piece, and IMO it's far too expensive for me to spend that much on a conversation piece. JMO, YMMV.

Jason

 

[Tarvis]

the 5.7 is just too weak for reliable stopping power

The P90's real power came when you placed 15 rounds on center mass firing full auto. It can be controlled one handed on full auto, so I'd imagine that staying on target with two is no problem. It's a trade off between muzzle jump and energy. For example, the 458 socom is the ultimate in short range energy; which is awesome until you fire it on full auto. In the video I watched, 10 rounds of 458 on full auto almost knocked the guy over.

To quote myself:

The P90's real power came when you placed 15 rounds on center mass firing full auto.

Someone could reply that the PS90 is not full auto and thus not capable of filling the roll the P90 does. However, if S ever does HTF, I don't think I'll be contemplating the chances of the ATF coming after me because I filed off the disconnecter on all my rifles.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'll be contemplating the chances of the ATF coming after me because I filed off the disconnecter on all my rifles.

That won't make a PS90 even remotely close to full auto.

Take the trigger pack out and look at it. Not a chance.

 

[mr.trooper]

This is just me, but i would buy an MSAR first, then a GSG-5

 

[Tarvis]

That won't make a PS90 even remotely close to full auto.

Never had the opportunity to look at the guts, so I dunno. You get the idea, stop killing my dreams

 

[TexasRifleman]

You get the idea, stop killing my dreams

LOL sorry. The guts are pretty bizarre in that thing though.