AR15 Optic Setup - This Back and Forth Must Stop!

[JPG19]

I have a problem. One that I haven't really encountered all too much before, and I need your help. I CANNOT decide which setup I prefer/which one suits my needs better when it comes to the optics I mount on my AR and, as a result, I am constantly switching back and forth between my two primary options. They are as follows:

Option 1: Nikon M-223 1-4x20 w/ BDC reticle mounted in a Burris PEPR QD mount.

Option 2: Bushnell TRS-25 Red Dot mounted on a UTG riser (not really a QD mount, but it has a finger-tightened bolt that keeps it secured to the rail so it is very easy to get on and off. Not sure how well it returns to zero though).

This rifle fills multiple roles including home defense (split between my CCW Glock G19 and this AR), range fun, and some hunting.

Option 1 is quite a bit more expensive and consists of higher end parts for sure and with the scope set to 1x target acquisition is very quick. I really don't have much of a problem with eye relief when the scope is set to 1x either, but it does exist somewhat (much more of a problem when set to 4x). Option 2 is very quick, I like the optic just fine, and the entire system is very lightweight. The downfalls are: I don't trust the mount to hold a zero like I do the Burris, and I have heard a few rumors that the red dot itself has trouble holding a zero (specifically, that it will slowly creep your POI to the left). What do you guys recommend? Having zero professional instruction, I am unaware of the potential complications/benefits of running an AR with a 1-4x scope during close-quarters home defense. What things am I not considering? Any comments and wisdom passed on are much appreciated. Thanks guys.

p.s. I am planning on getting an Eotech sometime this year but for now I need to settle on something given what I have.

 

[adelbridge]

A black reticle is useless in dark. Get a 1-4 with illuminated dot

 

[Mobuck]

"Having zero professional instruction, I am unaware of the potential complications/benefits of running an AR with a 1-4x scope during close-quarters home defense. What things am I not considering? Any comments and wisdom passed on are much appreciated. Thanks "
Well, by most parameters, I'm not a "professional instructor". If you're so close that you can't properly use a scope set at 1X, just look over the barrel and shoot. You don't need a precise aiming point on a bad guy's chest at 15'.
One of the worst things I see shooters do is gawk around looking for their target in the scope. Place the scope at the right height and eye relief and it will be there when you need it.

 

[ObsceneJesster]

Anyone who recommends a magnified optic for potential close quarter combat has obviously never been trained in or experienced close quarter combat.

Sometimes people recommend what they use/own without thinking what would truly be best for the situation at hand.

Here's my opinion and recommendation. If you use your carbine for home defense, there is no better option than an Aimpoint. Unlike every other RDS available, it's battery life is measured in years, not hours. The last thing you want to worry about in a self defense situation is having to flip a switch to turn your optics on or your battery dying during the time you need it most. Simple things like this can be forgotten in the heat of the moment. Your carbine should be ready to engage the instant you grab it. When it comes to the optic itself, a true picture will get the job done best. As you know, an engagement inside of your home will most likely take place within 10-20 feet depending on the dimensions of your home. A RDS will give the ideal eye relief and provide the quickest target acquisition.

At the end of the day, I'd recommend picking whatever feels more comfortable to you. I just recommended what I feel is the best tool for the job.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[justice06rr]

I'm usually inclined towards RDS for quick target acquisitions esp in CQB or home defense setup.

In your case, have you considered using both optics simultaneously by mounting the Bushnell TRS on a 45-degree mount? That way you can use both optics on the rifle at the same time.

 

[Tomcat47]

I voted option 1 ... That is nice setup

Option 2 is good setup also, which leads me to say you need Option 3

Option 3 = Buy 2nd Rifle to Hold Option 2 .....

 

[bfoosh006]

Get another upper for the scope. One with a free floated 18-20 barrel. Something like this...http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/20/psa-hammer-forged-rifle-length-ss15g2-premium-20-stripped-railed-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html

Leave the red dot on the home defense ( Shorter ) length barrel.

 

[MrCleanOK]

If you're serious about this being a home defense weapon, get a white light. You have no business shooting what you can't positively identify, even if it's in your home. You don't have to spend a ton. For my latest deployment I got a plastic VTAC mount and paired it up with a plastic LED Surefire I already had. I spent about $25 and it illuminates things just as well as my X300.

Keep whatever optic you like the most, it really doesn't make a lick of difference if all you base your decision on is what strangers on the internet like the best. Take your optic of choice to the range, and shoot the crap out of it. If you chose the RDS, with enough rounds you will figure out for yourself if the zero wanders. With the 1-4x scope, you will figure out for yourself if the eye relief is a problem, or if you can't see the crosshairs against white light in low visibility.

You can score lethal hits with almost anything if you train to do it. I would be comfortable with my home defense rifle having iron sights, a red dot sight, or a 4x optic. I only know because I've trained with all of them, and I can't say what is going to work for you. Good luck, go shoot, and let us know what you come up with, and why!

 

[Outlaw Man]

I would be afraid your target acquisition speed might suffer in a home defense situation with the Nikon. That also seems like the most critical function you listed, unless you're hunting something that will eat you.

That Nikon is a pretty decent scope, and I'd definitely keep it for hunting and such.

If you're not confident the red dot will hold zero enough for swapping between the two, I'd either go with the red dot and sacrifice longer range accuracy, or get a good set of irons you're comfortable with and go old school for home defense (assuming you're faster with irons than that Nikon...).

 

[JPG19]

If you're serious about this being a home defense weapon, get a white light. You have no business shooting what you can't positively identify, even if it's in your home. You don't have to spend a ton. For my latest deployment I got a plastic VTAC mount and paired it up with a plastic LED Surefire I already had. I spent about $25 and it illuminates things just as well as my X300.

Keep whatever optic you like the most, it really doesn't make a lick of difference if all you base your decision on is what strangers on the internet like the best. Take your optic of choice to the range, and shoot the crap out of it. If you chose the RDS, with enough rounds you will figure out for yourself if the zero wanders. With the 1-4x scope, you will figure out for yourself if the eye relief is a problem, or if you can't see the crosshairs against white light in low visibility.

You can score lethal hits with almost anything if you train to do it. I would be comfortable with my home defense rifle having iron sights, a red dot sight, or a 4x optic. I only know because I've trained with all of them, and I can't say what is going to work for you. Good luck, go shoot, and let us know what you come up with, and why!

I have a white light, it's not mounted in that picture because I only just now (minutes before taking the picture) put the Magpul hand guard back on the gun. I find the original M4 hand guards to be more comfortable and give me a more positive grip, however I cannot mount my light on them so I decided to go back to the Magpul set (not to mention I like having dual heat shields. I'm not "tactical" [ugh, I HATE that word - better yet, it's overuse. But, I digress.] enough to wear Mechanix gloves when I shoot).

I do like the idea of building a second rifle or, at a minimum, acquiring a second upper. However, I'm looking for input given my immediate situation and the equipment that I already have. Ultimately, I'd like to purchase one of Spike's 11.5" FN CHF barrels and a 20" barrel upper with free floated hand guards.

You guys have all raised some good points, there's a good chunk of me that is tempted to go with the irons and light. The light has a laser on it, which is set for ~10m, and I have often felt that this would be sufficient given the rather close proximity of any target.

As far as mounting them both is concerned, I had considered that but really prefer to keep things as simple and lightweight as possible. Burris makes a micro-sized red dot that could mount on top of the Burris PEPR mount's rings but the turrets from the Nikon are too tall for this to work. A 45-degree mount is definitely something I will look into. Who knows, I may find that I like that setup!

 

[stumpers]

I have an Aimpoint on one of my ARs with a weaponlight. The other just has irons and a weapon-mounted surefire.

There's no way I'd put a magnified optic on a short-range weapon - it's just infinitely harder to acquire a target than with irons or a red dot.

If you plan to hunt with your AR, your current setup should return to zero if you simply remove your scope and use irons for home defense duty.

 

[Torian]

As stumpers said above, you need to rethink your setup if you want to use this weapon for home defense.

Aimpoints are a top notch red dot. I have quite a bit of experience using both the army issued Aimpoint and ACOGs, and I can honestly say I prefer the Aimpoint for CQB and shots under 200m. Magnification isn't always conducive to setting the sight picture you need.

Right now I have a Colt Magpul 6920 with flip up sights I used for home defense, and I'm planning on putting an Aimpoint Patrol Pro on it.

 

[shrewd]

You answered your question when you said you had no real instruction.

I don't want to sound harsh but thinking you're armed and prepared to defend yourself without at least one high round count intense course is pretty ignorant.

I'd say get a better red dot, a light, with proper mounts (buy once cry once) and take as many classes as you can afford. You'd be pretty surprised how what you thought was a solid setup turns out to be dirt

 

[Quentin]

You can mount a light from the FSB using a Mossie Midnight Mount and keep your standard handguards. The mount weighs just over an ounce and comes in a rail version or universal (compatible with the Glock mount).

 

[yzguy87]

I agree most with Tomcat47 in post 6!

Definately option 3

 

[JPG19]

You answered your question when you said you had no real instruction.

I don't want to sound harsh but thinking you're armed and prepared to defend yourself without at least one high round count intense course is pretty ignorant.

I'd say get a better red dot, a light, with proper mounts (buy once cry once) and take as many classes as you can afford. You'd be pretty surprised how what you thought was a solid setup turns out to be dirt

I'll give your suggestion concerning my ignorance as much consideration as it is due. Thank you for not answering my question.

 

[stumpers]

...thinking you're armed and prepared to defend yourself without at least one high round count intense course is pretty ignorant.

Just as ignorant as your comment that disregards the original question and assumes one is indefensible without a course that you think is suitable.

 

[stumpers]

Another thing to add, Eotechs are decent optics, but battery life is limited. Aimpoints have much better battery life - years, not hours.

But, if you prefer the Eotech reticle after shooting both, go for it. Please try it before you buy it though - it's not for everyone.

I got a lightly used Aimpoint M3 with LaRue mount for $350... NIB Aimpoint PRO is around $400...

 

[itsa pain]

for HD I don't see where you need a dot or scope the irons are good. you can use the scope for other shooting

 

[JPG19]

Another thing to add, Eotechs are decent optics, but battery life is limited. Aimpoints have much better battery life - years, not hours.

But, if you prefer the Eotech reticle after shooting both, go for it. Please try it before you buy it though - it's not for everyone.

I got a lightly used Aimpoint M3 with LaRue mount for $350... NIB Aimpoint PRO is around $400...

Woa! $350?! That's one heck of a deal man. I had been looking at the Aimpoint M3 actually for quite a while and, being well aware of the ongoing Aimpoint vs Eotech war, had been leaning towards the Eotech largely because of price. I have used an Aimpoint (whichever one the Army uses that my buddy in the Marine's stole ) and liked it just fine. I haven't, however, actually used an Eotech while shooting. I have only handled AR's equipped with Eotechs and liked the larger window. In the end, I have a lot more research to do and really should have put that I am planning on purchasing a better quality red dot/holographic sight sometime this year as opposed to declaring Eotech the winner.

shrewd - No, I haven't taken the $1,000+, 2,000 round count course that is available in my area. I have, however, been instructed for several years by many people whom I would consider experts including an extended family member who used to be on SWAT and is now a private security contractor and therefore practices all the time, a retired Recon Marine, and several other friends who were Marine grunts in Iraq. I sure hope this is sufficient for little ole me to be able to shoot as well as you can if anyone ever breaks into my home.

 

[Warp]

Illuminated reticle 1-x variable scope.

Personally I went with a Trijcon TR24G, because it is illuminated day or night, requires no batteries, and has no electronics. The only times the reticle's illumination is too dim to see, it's still perfect because you then have a crisp black aiming point (not unlike a front sight post) contrasting a light/bright target/background.

Best of both worlds

 

[shrewd]

when I'm wrong I'm wrong

Poor assumption, my bad bro

 

[Warp]

You can mount a light from the FSB using a Mossie Midnight Mount and keep your standard handguards. The mount weighs just over an ounce and comes in a rail version or universal (compatible with the Glock mount).

It's a good mount.

I put my Surefire in one.

 

[stumpers]

Woa! $350?! That's one heck of a deal man.

Constantly checking Armlist...deals can be found...

I would suggest checking out a 2MOA and a 4MOA dot, as well, to see what you like more. There's so many options, just look around alot and then decide.

Any decent gun shop that sells optics should be willing to let you mount one in the store and see what it looks like before you drop $400 to who-knows-how-much on a quality sight.

Not to beat the horse too much, but I would check out Aimpoint, C-more, Burris...etc, etc... before making a decision. You only want to buy once and not have to try to return a sight or resell it for less.

I'd take a used Aimpoint over a new Eotech any day of the week, but the Eotech just isn't my thing.

 

[backbencher]

You answered your question when you said you had no real instruction.

I don't want to sound harsh but thinking you're armed and prepared to defend yourself without at least one high round count intense course is pretty ignorant.

I'd say get a better red dot, a light, with proper mounts (buy once cry once) and take as many classes as you can afford. You'd be pretty surprised how what you thought was a solid setup turns out to be dirt

So all the non-11Bs in the Army aren't prepared to defend themselves? We don't go through high-round count courses either - I've qualified w/ an M-16/M-4 all of six times in nearly 12 years. I say OP is good with either mount, but I prefer the 1-4x variable. If he needs to take it off, it's a QD mount. I imagine if he's got white walls, that reticle will show up nicely on center of burglar w/ his light.